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After reading through everything, here and elsewhere, the largest disadvantages sound like it takes hours to print anything and it will need lots of expensive first world employees to manage and maintain vast numbers of machines, clean the resin, and UV bake the model, even more so because this will be de-centralised and local to an area meaning many of the employees and pieces of equipment, such as ventilation, will be doubled up.
A PVC cast machine just spits out sprues non stop on the other hand and can be tossed straight into the box. PVC is also better in pretty much every way for hobbyists.
I think this might make some sense currently with shipping costs being astronomic, and material costs skyrocketing.
But if prices for shipping and materials crater back to where they were, very cheap, then this doesn't seem worth it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/07/27 19:54:24
So what you're asking for, at heart, is the ability to buy one Warjack, with all loadout options (because that's a thing now) and then be able to produce as many as you like for yourself and your friends ad infinitum.
Given PP are not a 3D sculptor making their work available online for a fee or via Patreon or similar, but a production company that makes a substantial percentage of its income from the retail and wholesale of miniatures, how much of a premium do you think they'd need to charge to cover themselves and maintain any hope of sustainability?
Yes, that is what I want, and I acknowledge that. That is why I've switched over to miniature-agnostic rulesets and most of my hobby spending (though not all) is via Patreon and MyMiniFactory (and Cults3D, CGTrade, etc, etc) these days.
My point is, with a digital only rules release and 3D print production...they're not offering me anything over the systems I'm spending money on these days other than the inconvenience of buying THEIR prints, one at a time, at a significant premium compared to other small-shop manufacturers working in other mediums. As such, I'm very unlikely to come back to Warmahordes unless there's also the option to purchase STLs, because I've already got more systems than I can get to these days that offer that convenience.
I'm pointing out a possible challenge with this new setup, and acknowledging that I don't have an answer for it. I don't think they could maintain the overhead required to remain a physical production company and sell the STLs for my use. However, the solution isn't going to be to try and sell me a starter army that they printed for approximately 2 1/2 months of my Patreon fees, because I'm not interested. I can do 3D printed miniature gaming better with other systems already.
A race to the bottom chasing the cheapskate buck isnt a particularly viable strategy for a niche within a niche. There just isnt enough interest to court guys who might grudgingly part with $15 on their product, when it means the STL's are uploaded to various sites about 10 seconds after the first sale.
anab0lic wrote: RE 3D printed resin models brings being brittle, depends on what resin you use. There is stuff on the market now that is pretty durable, has a good amount of flex to it where things don't just snap if mishandled. There's some videos demonstrating this where people are forcefully throwing 3D printed resin models on the floor trying to break them and they remain intact after several bouts of heavy abuse.
Which types of resin are best for this?
I’ve been wondering if the slate blue resin really is tougher than the translucent green resin, or if that’s just a mind trick of their appearances.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote: Implying that there's literally anything "quick and easy" about dealing with foreign manufacturing is a big ol' lol.
m
If only there were a plastics manufacturer in the US making a name for themselves by partnering up with small gaming companies to produce their minis in plastic…..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/27 23:00:40
Read through the Mk. IV Beta rules... and it is just a worse version of the previous edition, with the added bonus of pissing off a bunch of people as they (eventually) invalidate whole collections, and move to a less than ideal production method.
Really unimpressed with the changes to how units work, removal of free strikes, gigantic Control Ranges, and enlarging the base melee ranges of minis to "deemphasis model placement".
Not terribly bothered about the removal of facings, as it will clear up a lot of analysis paralysis when it comes to placing minis on the board.
But ehhhh, I don't think I will continue playing Warmachine with this.
Hobby 3D printing isn’t commercial 3D printing. If I’m doing it for me, it’s annoying if a model comes out on the wonk, but ultimately it’s just a waste of electricity and the goo. If a commercially scaled 3D printer goes on the wonk? That’s multiple prints knackered, as well as time and money wasted.
I know my 3D Printing Friend has to calibrate his machine and do other maintenance, but not that often. Now whether that’s him taking risks or if the tech is generally quite reliable on say, quarterly cleaning and calibration i simply don’t know, but I’m sure someone here can clarify.
There’s also the question of long term development. We know GW has the money to make pretty significant investments in its production facilities and capacity, and in plastic (which I understand to be the most expensive to get setup for, but among the cheapest, if not the cheapest, to produce.
How scalable are these farms? I mean, if this edition takes off, and they see the sort of growth GW has been posting in the last few years (could potentially be higher, given comments about lack of availability outside the US). That’s not just adding a few more machines, depending on their starting capacity, but potentially doubling their available machines. That seems quite cost intensive in machines, factory space and people to run it?
Please note dear reader this isn’t “Mad Doc Gaks On PP’s Chips”. I’m just genuinely interested in this development, regardless of which company is trying it.
There's two type of printers. FDM, which later plastic (or similar material) up and are basically fancy plotters vs resin printers. FDMs require a lot of maintenance as there's a lot of moving parts and fail points. Resin printers are incredibly stupid simple mechanically. Cheap ones only have one moving part (a motor) and expensive ones will have two (two motors for two rails for stability) generally and really only need their stepper rods cleaned vary rarely. The other maintenance for Resin printers is a teflon coated sheet of plastic (or similar item) called FEP that wears out over time and this can take about 30min to replace but you can just swap resin vats with a fresh one on and then replace on the other while printing. Calibrating is also very simple if using the same resin. For production you'd want to calibrate for each batch of resin but they can buy a whole lot at once and ensure it's the same so they may only have to Calibrate when switching between resin batches or after screen/laser replacements which may only be 2-3 times a year.
The last consumable is the screen or laser (depending on the printer). Mono screens can last about 3,000-5,000 print hours and are pretty easy swaps (still about 30min) while lasers are 20,000 or so print hours (No clue on how much effort they are to swap but that's years worth of printing).
Scaling up is as simple as adding a new machine so you're only limited by space. A lot of print farms have management software that can manage all the stuff being printed remotely so you don't have to walk to each printer one at a time and start but you do for cleaning after the print. That's where the biggest time sink is for resin and what would be the most expensive to scale up as you need people to do that work.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this was buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/28 07:39:57
No facing
No free strikes
No command range (for units), unit leaders or formations.
Units move one model, then the others just teleport to 2" away from that model (which... yeah, that's not obviously exploitable).
'Deemphasize model placement' (mentioned in the melee range increase). Given that the game's claim to fame was basically 'more tactical than warhammer' this is a weird choice.
As is the removal of almost all 'out of turn' stuff. It seems especially ironic that just when GW is stepping more and more into Reactions and out of turn interactions to keep opposing players involved, PP is stripping it out.
----
Simplified power attacks is iffy. Some where stupidly clunky and went on for pages with negligible side effects for all that text space.
On the other hand, charging still takes multiple pages of rules to explain, and something as simple as run is still somehow multiple paragraphs, and they still have the terrible bloody layout of the mark 3 book. The rules for being slammed or thrown do not need to be in a separate section from the rules for slamming and throwing. How is this part of anyone's thought process? 'We really have to explain what happens to you before we describe how it happens, rather than the result flowing naturally from the attempt.' And collateral damage (potentially part of a throw or slam) is also separate. So I take that back. It isn't iffy, its still just really dumb.
---
I do like some of the changes (though some seem half-hearted or partial), particularly the removal of templates (which especially don't work with unit teleports).
Arcane stat and a separate magic attack stat is nice, rather than crippling low fury or focus casters for offensive spells.
Kind of like flat modifiers for run or rough terrain rather than double or half.
Simplification of model rules is... largely good. They had the same problem (just a wall of tiny text across the card) at the end of mark 1, and honestly probably will again by the end of mk4.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2022/07/28 02:18:12
Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Needs some table time, but definitely not all bad.
Free strikes are gone, but leaving engagement requires forfeiting your combat action, which for most models is MUCH worse.
Unit movement is... interesting.... on one hand it absolutely ups the threat range of units, but the restriction on what counts as a charge attack for damage is pretty significant. Smaller unit sizes in general and DRAMATICALLY smaller table space are going to reshape how they play regardless.
Terrain interaction is a huge improvement and long overdo. I've been thumping for these changes forever.
Overall, I don't hate it at all. It's obviously meant to remove a ton of the fiddly bits of playing with untis and I think that's probably a boon.
As someone who quit after a few months of MK. 3, I'm excited to give this a try. I was tired of the flat, boring tables littered with fiddly measuring widgets and placeholder tokens. It seems like the rule designers were too!
Frankly I doubt they're even a "small" company by now, they seem to have basically no customers.
I think Monsterocalypse does well in it's tiny niche, and I'm sure the RPG does a low, but steady volume. But I haven't seen anyone excited about the main game in years (none of my local stores carry it anymore) or Warcaster ever.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Position and manoeuvre have been eroded over time in 40k simply as a byproduct of them simplifying the rules. I've not seen a game actually set out to remove that factor.
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
Now you can just charge a fool, then place the guy from the back of the unit with his base just barely touching the 2" mark forward from the charge, and wrap models around a blocker to still tag the model they're defending.
Truthfully, with a small based model as the charge target, you can just drop at least some of the charging unit on the other side of the enemy model. All that matters is one model in the unit can complete the charge. They rest can just pop into existence on the other side of an intact shield wall. And they can attack anyone in their (now longer) melee range, the additonal models in the unit don't actually have a charge target. Or facings. They do lose the charge bonus if their targets aren't engaged by the charging model, but so what? At that point the enemies either have to fight your trash or forfeit their combat action.
Huh. Technically since you measure everything from base edge to base edge, charging units can drop people on the other side of heavy warjacks, as 2" is slightly longer than 50mm.
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
Dang, all those changes they've outlined in their summary below the docs sound really, really good... So many of my pain points from playing these games addressed!
Yeah. I'm honestly just baffled by the idea of Warmachine without tactical & precise positioning. It was laborious at times and I'm sure its actually a relief to some.
But it was the meat of the game.
I respectfully disagree. I think at it's heart Warmachine is a game about exploiting synergy and resource allocation/risk management that got co-opted by movement widget fetishists. It made for tedious and boring gameplay that drove the casuals (myself included) away in droves and I'm glad for it to be gone.
As for your other points...yeah, I'm sure they're will be some wacky rules interactions but hopefully they'll get them ironed out, after all, these are still just the beta rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/28 02:38:36
Having read through the beta rules, I'm cautiously optimistic. Really appreciate the rules simplifications. It feels like Mk3 was trying to get to this point but fell short and got mired in the muddy ground inbetween.
I really like the idea of customisable jack loadouts, and breaking down focus, control, and magic attacks.
I'm not so sure about the new blast and spray attacks, but realise these will have be taken into consideration with the new rules as a whole.
All in all I'm looking forward to given it a solid go.
The galaxy is littered with the single-planet graveyards of civilisations which made the economically sensible decision not to explore space.
No facing
No free strikes
No command range (for units), unit leaders or formations.
Units move one model, then the others just teleport to 2" away from that model (which... yeah, that's not obviously exploitable).
'Deemphasize model placement' (mentioned in the melee range increase). Given that the game's claim to fame was basically 'more tactical than warhammer' this is a weird choice.
As is the removal of almost all 'out of turn' stuff. It seems especially ironic that just when GW is stepping more and more into Reactions and out of turn interactions to keep opposing players involved, PP is stripping it out.
WHAT?!
Those things are integral to what makes Warmachine, Warmachine! Model placement is the key aspect of the game, it's what made it so tactically pleasing! Might as well remove Focus from the game too at that point
There are also recurring PPE costs, extra electricity costs from ventilated enclosures, an air purifier in the space as backup. Screen protectors for the LCD. Gaskets and/or gasket tape for around replaced screens. etc.
My reply at the end of this gor buried as the end post on page 3, and it bears repeating as it has not come up again.
So, what would you estimate the final cost per starter set would be for PP, after all these hidden expenditures?
Seeing all these accruing costs reminded me of a music video:
I have no idea of their demand level, so I can't answer that well.
assuming mass market, including wholesale accounts that are going to purchase in bulk: probably close or higher than 75 machines based on the size of war machine figures I have owned personally (time to print is a factor.) lets be generous and say they have 3 facilities (Europe, americas, asia/pacific.) Manpower is dependent on how much you really want to throw at it. assuming they can get bulk rates on PPE, and don't cheap out, plus get proper enclosures rather than bastardized ones out of grow tents....... High 5 figures to low six figures.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
if they are sub-contracting work out to local print farms there's going to be gak for quality control and packaging quality control.
Well they were a bit vague regarding the facilities, for all we know they may well just have a small rented office for 1 guy to "simply" check the quality of those farms production.
And yeah unless they dont give a rats ass for other territories and are just working on the US release in a couple month etc I dont see how "we are looking into it" as opposed to " we are already printing in other territories" will work out.
Not feeling this at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/07/28 08:00:50
PP is doing everything people "ask" GW doing with 40k, go full 3D printing, go full digital, keep old models and new ones with different gaming modes, seasons to keep the meta fresh etc.
while at the same time copy the rules "style" of 40k because it is the most successful game, everyone plays (also everyone 3D prints models or buy 3rd party knock offs to play the game) so the rules must be what people want
funny thing is that people call it DoA simply because it is doing what others say GW must do to survive and maybe this the US market wants from a competitive game and maybe it will work
overall, wait and see but I have my doubts
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
So I take that back. It isn't iffy, its still just really dumb.
