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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Voss wrote:
Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.


If the community rejects Legacy armies, that's on us, yeah. If PP fails to deliver on their promises to provide rules for them, then sure, its on PP, but anyone at this point saying all their models are invalid are making that decision for themselves. There are absolutely issues I will take PP to task for, but the community needs to understand what the drive for mechanical purity really cost us. We're the ones who rejected narratives leagues, that refused to play on 3D terrain, that shunned smaller point levels. We insisted that players just had to get gud or play another game and the end result was the majority finding another game to play.

As I said, there are definitely aspects of that I'll take PP to task for. The lack of useful starter products, terrain rules that didn't work well with the models they were producing, and scenario design that increasingly failed to function with smaller armies, but the community more than played its part and hearing people say Legacy models don't count right off the bat is playing in that same mentality that drove the game into the dirt in the first place.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Valander wrote:
Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I haven't read the new rules but a strange thought occurred to me regarding legacy models. Assuming PP kept its volume rule as opposed to going with GW's silhouette rules what's to keep a player from using legacy models from outside his original legacy army as part of his current army? By that I mean if his jack has a 2" reach sword and a shield and he is playing Khador what would be the problem with him using Gallant? I mean a big sword is a big sword and a shield is a shield. I think that it would be fine especially if he had Gallant painted to match his Khador jacks. So, legacy models can still be used, at least jacks, it just means that players will have to carry more models than someone who has the new magnetized jacks.
In casual games with friends? Absolutely nothing. If you and your group don't care about "proxying," then you can do your thing. However, when it comes to "official" events, there's usually a WYSIWYG policy in place the often forbids the use of proxies. Warmachine is particularly bad on this front, historically, with the reasoning that you needed to know exactly what model you were facing at all times in order to "keep competitive."


The game has a LOOOOONG way to go before its back to a place where caring about tournament conversion policies should matter to anyone and frankly, it needs to be better than it was. We drove out some phenomenal armies in favor of barely discernable, bare metal under the insistence it was somehow more competitively recognizable. (looking at you MechnoLegion and NecronCryx).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/09 16:37:43


 
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Voss wrote:
Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.


If the community rejects Legacy armies, that's on us, yeah. If PP fails to deliver on their promises to provide rules for them, then sure, its on PP, but anyone at this point saying all their models are invalid are making that decision for themselves. There are absolutely issues I will take PP to task for, but the community needs to understand what the drive for mechanical purity really cost us. We're the ones who rejected narratives leagues, that refused to play on 3D terrain, that shunned smaller point levels. We insisted that players just had to get gud or play another game and the end result was the majority finding another game to play.

Ah. No, I'm passing on the collective guilt for whatever your local scene did.
Just no.

Especially not the terrain, as that was heavily pushed by the official format and the press gangers- we did just fine with real terrain until the Official Events pushed it out (and with it, most of the people I enjoyed playing with. After that it wasn't worth spending an hour each way in the car to go to what was left of game night).

Though the 'bare metal' bit I'm just confused by. Both the league games and the locals provided encouragement for painting.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/09 16:51:47


Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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PP never laid down an edict on terrain. They were using 3D hills in official IG finals way past the point where the community tolerated it. Most events just aren't that official, even the big stuff is on the whims of relatively local TOs that fell for the ease of transport and setup and a community that became increasingly concerned with precision in an environment that just isn't that conducive to it.

Some of that I'll put on the game itself. Minor threat advantages are huge in Mk2 specifically and terrain interactions are almost exclusively punishing. I've found both of these issues notably less concerning with the new unit movement.

Ultimately what you're saying is the culture of the game pushed out your players. What was played at Official Events shouldn't matter to locals that don't want to play that way, but we let those edicts rule in environments where that kind of formality isn't really necessary.

Same with painting and conversion. When your cool proxy/conversions are met with hang wringing concerns over tournament legality instead of praise for a job well done, it just kind of kills the enthusiasm for creativity. We let Official Events crush the local scenes and paid for it.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
PP never laid down an edict on terrain. They were using 3D hills in official IG finals way past the point where the community tolerated it. Most events just aren't that official, even the big stuff is on the whims of relatively local TOs that fell for the ease of transport and setup and a community that became increasingly concerned with precision in an environment that just isn't that conducive to it.

The game was all about precision, by design. That was a huge part of its selling point (both for rules and measurements), and reiterated again and again by the staff, the Infernals and the press gangers.. I remember Matt Wilson (on the PP boards, way back in the day before the summarily executed the forums for not toeing the party line enough) being accused on being anal retentive and his response was 'I've never heard of that being a bad thing'

I know nothing about IG finals, just the Steamroller and other packs from the company pushing felt and paper cutouts. It was never an issue in stores I played in until PP made it the norm, somewhere in mid-to late mark 2..
It was normal 3-d terrain all the time up to that point.

Some of that I'll put on the game itself. Minor threat advantages are huge in Mk2 specifically and terrain interactions are almost exclusively punishing. I've found both of these issues notably less concerning with the new unit movement.

Well, yeah. They've traded precision for magic teleportation as the default. Of course it doesn't matter anymore.

Ultimately what you're saying is the culture of the game pushed out your players. What was played at Official Events shouldn't matter to locals that don't want to play that way, but we let those edicts rule in environments where that kind of formality isn't really necessary.

No. 'The game' doesn't have a culture. The business did, and the players quite understandably followed suit.
But yes, edicts. Exactly edicts. Pronouncements from on high that dictate how things are done.

Same with painting and conversion. When your cool proxy/conversions are met with hang wringing concerns over tournament legality instead of praise for a job well done, it just kind of kills the enthusiasm for creativity. We let Official Events crush the local scenes and paid for it.

And that was the company's intent. They were firmly opposed to conversions. That's 100% on them. The local scenes started with the understanding that conversions would never be acceptable.


----
I don't know if its a misunderstanding of internet culture, or what. But players don't (and can't have) a collective consciousness that makes decisions.
The trappings and behaviors around a game largely come from the company that makes it. You don't get to pass off blame onto the players for having merely been present at the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/09 17:50:03


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tneva82 wrote:


Well most of old models gets legendified so unless WM players take different stance to 40k/AOS where legends are more or less dead most of old models might just as well not have rules.


It's not some philosophical stance against legended models that keeps them from being played, they just aren't worth the points. That's why you don't see them in events where they're allowed, there isn't a compelling reason to take most of them. The only reason to take one is "I remember using this model when I was a kid and I still have it so why not throw it on the table in casual games once in awhile". If WMH makes legends actually useful, they will still be played. However I strongly suspect they will fall into the Warhammer trap of "we'll give you rules for this old model, but we'll give better rules to our new models as we would really prefer if you buy new models from us".
   
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Voss wrote:
Wow, are we just jumping full in on blaming 'the community?' As pre-emptive strikes for an edition launch full of uncertainty after a shaky edition with its own launch troubles and bad acting by the company, that's pretty hard core.
That is a nuance-free strawman of what he said, so I suppose it works if you want to torment yourself with misunderstanding.

At any rate, fault doesn't matter. The community has a very real impact on the success of the game and if the community adopts a stance corrosive to the game's success it will suffer accordingly. The community could be that way because of or despite the parent company's best efforts, but either way a dead game is dead.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/09 18:40:35


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Toofast wrote:
tneva82 wrote:


Well most of old models gets legendified so unless WM players take different stance to 40k/AOS where legends are more or less dead most of old models might just as well not have rules.


It's not some philosophical stance against legended models that keeps them from being played, they just aren't worth the points. That's why you don't see them in events where they're allowed, there isn't a compelling reason to take most of them. The only reason to take one is "I remember using this model when I was a kid and I still have it so why not throw it on the table in casual games once in awhile". If WMH makes legends actually useful, they will still be played. However I strongly suspect they will fall into the Warhammer trap of "we'll give you rules for this old model, but we'll give better rules to our new models as we would really prefer if you buy new models from us".


I think one of the big differences is that most of the Legended 40k stuff is pretty niche. A random special character or something that's largely redundant with a modern version. There's little in it that feels like including would add anything meaningful to your army, and I don't mean in a competitive sense. This is different in the sense that there are large aesthetic elements that are looking to be Unlimited only. Stuff like an Iron Fang army or Gun Mages or something are compelling themes that aren't likely to get much representation outside of Unlimited. I think a better example would be if GW had provided Legends rules for a classic Squat army; if that were the case, I think you'd definitely hear about it more. That's effectively similar to the state of Sisters prior to the end of 8th and yeah, there was always the random Sisters player with their beloved collection of OOP models that were exciting to see hit the table. The existence of Legacy casters alone is going to give people reason to go back from time to time. Legends just doesn't have anything like that to make players care to about anything in it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/09 18:46:21


 
   
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Ireland

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
but either way a dead game is dead.


Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.

Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.

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Voss wrote:

I don't know if its a misunderstanding of internet culture, or what. But players don't (and can't have) a collective consciousness that makes decisions.
The trappings and behaviors around a game largely come from the company that makes it. You don't get to pass off blame onto the players for having merely been present at the time.


If this were true than Brawlmachine would have never been a thing. To that point, neither would Steamroller. That was originally a fan packet that PP pulled in house. The flat terrain was largely driven by a small company making widgets and tools to support the game. You'll not find PP selling neoprene terrain after all. In each of these cases, players developed solutions to problems they were facing and the community latched on until it grew into something more. Players absolutely drive and impact the way the game is played. By the time PP makes anything official its usually already prolific not only at convention tournaments, but a good chunk of local events too.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/09 18:58:09


 
   
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Philadelphia

 stonehorse wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
but either way a dead game is dead.


Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.

Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.


GW sells out of everything every time it launches anything, and that's met with "but they shortfall production", or "GW is dying, see!"

PP sells a handful, or who knows, 100 or 1000 units at the largest game convention in the US, and its "Winning!"

I agree with the other posters above, my Cryx continue to sit until the game gets to a point where its worth investing in, doesn't hinge on "git gud" to play, and the playerbase expands to where its worth spending the time doing. Everything up to that point is pure speculation and no evidence that the game is either dead, or a success... yet...

Legio Suturvora 2000 points (painted)
30k Word Bearers 2000 points (in progress)
Daemonhunters 1000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013

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Florida

 Cruentus wrote:
 stonehorse wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
but either way a dead game is dead.


Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.

Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.


GW sells out of everything every time it launches anything, and that's met with "but they shortfall production", or "GW is dying, see!"

PP sells a handful, or who knows, 100 or 1000 units at the largest game convention in the US, and its "Winning!"

I agree with the other posters above, my Cryx continue to sit until the game gets to a point where its worth investing in, doesn't hinge on "git gud" to play, and the playerbase expands to where its worth spending the time doing. Everything up to that point is pure speculation and no evidence that the game is either dead, or a success... yet...


How do you expand the playerbase without playing games. I'm sure new and interested parties might want to see your Cryx, or game against you?

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 McDougall Designs wrote:

How do you expand the playerbase without playing games. I'm sure new and interested parties might want to see your Cryx, or game against you?
I mean, maybe? Right now, the state of Unlimited is still fairly unknown as to what will wind up Prime legal, so I can understand a lot of folks being hesitant to even bother until they know how much of their existing collection is going to be usable in that format (which will eventually be the "main" format). It can also be a hard sell to a new player to say something akin to, "So, I'm using these old models, but they might not be available in the future, so the game experience you're getting may not be the same in X months." At the same time, sure, just playing may attract new players, too.

Right now, things feel a bit up in the air with how the overall community is really going to accept and play, and if it will indeed attract new players with the much higher entry price tag, to say whether it will be a success or not. Pretty much just have to let it play out and see. From my viewpoint, it really could go either way.
   
Made in us
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Given there aren't really battleboxes available anymore, I wouldn't really call any of the new products a higher price of entry.

There's definitely a lot to be skeptical about, and I'm definitely looking forward to having enough information to actually guide players, but locally we've had a good bit of interest, including some people picking up stuff they've wanted in the past and we'll make work regardless of how it turns out going forward. Most of it has been stuff that's obviously going to carry forward (limited factions, gators... man do people love gators)

Old players seem harder to crack despite it really costing them nothing to try. I'm in the mind of "it literally costs me nothing to try" so I'll try. Either the new players will pull back in some of the old or it'll be something new, or we'll just go back to playing something else. Just going to play it by ear.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Given there aren't really battleboxes available anymore, I wouldn't really call any of the new products a higher price of entry.


They directly compared the GenCon specials to battle boxes, Warcaster +2 jacks. $50 vs $75, so 150%. And a threat that individually they're going to be $100-115 if you missed out.

For the standard new starter, its $200, so a 400% higher cost of entry with the standard box. (You obviously get more, but that's a much higher 'starting cost,' with no real semantic dodge)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/09 20:11:37


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Seattle, WA USA

 LunarSol wrote:
Given there aren't really battleboxes available anymore, I wouldn't really call any of the new products a higher price of entry.
I get what you're saying, but that's my point. There is no "cheap" way to jump in with the new product line so far announced. I think this will definitely hamper getting new players, since dropping 200 bucks on a new game that you're not sure you're gonna like (yeah yeah, get some demos first, that isn't always a good indicator of the "staying power" of a game) after you've played a dozen or so games is kind of tough. It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.
   
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Yeah, I'd love to see better starter products. I'd love to see the GenCon boxes be a standard thing, even at the raised price. They have dramatically more gameplay to them than prior Battleboxes, which previously facilitated little more than a demo game. Worse in Mk3, where I felt like players rarely used any of the contents outside of demo games.

The new army boxes definitely don't hold a candle to the likes of the stuff Asmodee pushes with Legion and Marvel. Granted, 90% of my demos to that game seem to be players asking how they can avoid purchasing those starter boxes. I at least appreciate that the new $200 starters feel like a real army. PP is advertising them as 50 points, but there's significantly more to them than that to the point where there's actual army building options for 50 points, similar to how I appreciate the new Battleboxes are actually kind of interesting for 25 point games.

The sticker shock is real though. I think its pretty honest compared to what it really costs to get into most games, but loss leaders work for a reason. I'd love something more directly comparable to the $95-$150 Get Started/Combat Patrol offerings. Those things seem kind of terrible value, but the price is right to convince people they're a bargain.
   
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Sounds like PP needs to revive Company of Iron and give it the Kill Team 2.0 treatment.

Turn it from this bizarre super random thing to a real way to get people to constantly buy smaller amounts of models and boxes. They can 3D print all the related accessories needed.

   
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The new game is already a significantly smaller amount of models and boxes. 50 point games feel like a really good size and while 75 is where I feel like the best spot for a "full" game, 50 feels excellent as long as PP doesn't abandon it.
   
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Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)

so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do

 
   
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UK

Sticker shock is real, very in your face and for someone totally new to wargaming they've got that plus tools, paints, dice and such to get hold of on top.

That's why getting started sets are often aiming at being cheap. It doesn't actually matter how good the stuff in them is gameplay wise (within reason), but what they need to do is tempt you to commit enough to buy in and then you can start selling more to the customer.


Then again perhaps PP's hope is that these high priced boxes won't be aimed at beginners and are simply aimed and hoped at bringing back former customers - of which they do have many. Ergo riding a wave of fans returning to the fold rather than aiming to pitch to totally new people. So perhaps they feel they can get away with higher cost boxes.


It's a gamble though and it could just as easily backfire and they end up sitting there with lots of great content in high priced boxes that just don't sell.


I also guess along with former customers, PP is aiming to market to older gamers as well. $200 starters are going to be a super hard to sell to parents and kids for a boardgame with tiny models.

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Florida

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)

so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do


Not with their current change to 3D printing production methods.

They are trending towards higher prices, fewer models. Which when you apply Economy of scale means they are looking to limit production to higher priced items.

Which tracks, because a print that takes 6 hours takes, well, 6 hours and you'd rather make $15 than $5 for that time.

Loss leaders work if they are able to be massed produced for little cost input. They work for 3D prints if you have a vast quantity of printers, but at that point proper injection moulded plastic is cheaper.

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 Valander wrote:
It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.


I never understood that. I collect sports cars and watches, which I would consider luxury hobbies. I don't see anything from a tabletop wargaming company that would compare. Last month my Porsche club did a group drive to a private airplane garage to tour the garage and explore inside some of the planes. They served champagne and charcuterie trays. A local jeweler was there with a table full of Rolexes and Hublots. That kind of experience is what a luxury hobby is about. What equivalent does tabletop wargaming have? A bunch of neckbeards with questionable hygiene and social skills gathered around tables in a convention hall, where anyone else with a couple hundred bucks and a bus ticket can also be? What is the equivalent of your car manufacturer flying you to the factory so the seat can be molded around your ass in tabletop wargaming? Where are the private events with champagne and hors d'oeuvres you've never even heard of like the ones hosted by dealerships and jewelers? Where are the group outings where they book out a Ritz Carlton for the weekend only for certain customers? "It's a luxury hobby" is just a line invented by suits to justify charging more for plastic toys and regurgitated by white knights defending the company. Nothing about tabletop wargaming evokes a sense of "luxury hobby"
   
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Florida

Toofast wrote:
 Valander wrote:
It's almost like PP is taking the "wargaming is a luxury hobby" to an extreme level.


I never understood that. I collect sports cars and watches, which I would consider luxury hobbies. I don't see anything from a tabletop wargaming company that would compare. Last month my Porsche club did a group drive to a private airplane garage to tour the garage and explore inside some of the planes. They served champagne and charcuterie trays. A local jeweler was there with a table full of Rolexes and Hublots. That kind of experience is what a luxury hobby is about. What equivalent does tabletop wargaming have? A bunch of neckbeards with questionable hygiene and social skills gathered around tables in a convention hall, where anyone else with a couple hundred bucks and a bus ticket can also be? What is the equivalent of your car manufacturer flying you to the factory so the seat can be molded around your ass in tabletop wargaming? Where are the private events with champagne and hors d'oeuvres you've never even heard of like the ones hosted by dealerships and jewelers? Where are the group outings where they book out a Ritz Carlton for the weekend only for certain customers? "It's a luxury hobby" is just a line invented by suits to justify charging more for plastic toys and regurgitated by white knights defending the company. Nothing about tabletop wargaming evokes a sense of "luxury hobby"


Where individual people fall in regards to income/wealth stratification generally defines what they consider a "luxury."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/08/09 21:40:58


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Luxury is mostly a fancy word for niche. In modern times anything short of mass market is borderline bespoke. GW is the closest thing to the economy of scale most mainstream hobbies enjoy and its still incredibly niche by comparison. No different from luxury cars with a lot of custom options vs the mass market stuff that distributes the cost to manufacture over a larger user base.
   
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UK

 McDougall Designs wrote:
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)

so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do


Not with their current change to 3D printing production methods.

They are trending towards higher prices, fewer models. Which when you apply Economy of scale means they are looking to limit production to higher priced items.

Which tracks, because a print that takes 6 hours takes, well, 6 hours and you'd rather make $15 than $5 for that time.

Loss leaders work if they are able to be massed produced for little cost input. They work for 3D prints if you have a vast quantity of printers, but at that point proper injection moulded plastic is cheaper.


Personally my thoughts are that PP has gone for 3D printing as its the cheapest way to setup and can be done in different regions without vastly increased costs.
I think it gives them basically an affordable breathing room through which they can try and regrow the power and income from Warmachine and Hordes.

IF it fails they aren't vastly out of pocket
IF it ticks over they can keep going and earn a modest profit even if it never becomes a major game
IF it takes off again they can later start investing in other production methods like Siocast machines and such. Then get back toward general manufacture.


3D printing doesn't scale up as nicely as casting methods because, as you say, a 6 hour print takes 6 hours. So the only way to scale up is to buy more machines and that means more overhead to keep up with them, space and staff and such.

But they can certainly have some scaling room.

Plus an added bonus if they can get the regional production hubs working is that it lets them get around some current issues with international shipping.

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I think the potential of a distributed production model carries a decent amount of weight, honestly. And as much as I am a proponent of 3d printing production, fully agree that it's still not yet able to scale as quickly as other methods, though it can certainly be great for smaller production runs.
   
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 LunarSol wrote:
Luxury is mostly a fancy word for niche. In modern times anything short of mass market is borderline bespoke. GW is the closest thing to the economy of scale most mainstream hobbies enjoy and its still incredibly niche by comparison. No different from luxury cars with a lot of custom options vs the mass market stuff that distributes the cost to manufacture over a larger user base.


There is a big difference in what I explained above. When you buy a Porsche, you don't just get a nicer car than when you buy a Honda. You get an entire experience that's only available by being an owner of that brand. Cruises to the Caribbean with other owners, private jet/hangar tours, 5 star dinners, priority parking in special lots at car shows and races, etc that aren't open to Honda owners or comparable to anything Honda offers. That's what you get for the money beyond just nicer leather seats, headlight washers, and 400hp. What do you get for being a GW customer over buying recasts or 3D printing your own models? Nothing. The 3D printer or recast buyer has access to all the same events, tables, leagues, campaigns, etc that anyone else has. There is no benefit other than getting higher quality models, there is no luxury experience that goes along with being a customer which isn't afforded to customers of less luxurious brands. That's the difference between buying a Porsche over a Honda and buying GW/PP over bones/recast/3d prints. That's what I think of when I hear "luxury" brand, an experience above and beyond what you would get from a cheaper competitor.
   
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I’ve had a very short relation with WarmaHordes - I picked up a couple starter sets near the end of MKII, when GW was crashing hard. Probably the most effort I’ve put into painting the models. Played a handful of introductory games at home, but I’m a wallflower of a wargamer and getting crushed in games was something that early on drove me away from tournament play with the likes of GW games.

MK3 came along, and the game just vanished from the local FLGS, as did the community. I honestly thought the game had stopped being published, and places like Miniature Market were fire-sale ing the game, or the models I was looking for were sold out. Navigateing PP’s own site was a nightmare. So for me, the game was dead.

I’m hopeful and curious about MK4, but like X-Wing v2, the roll-out seems haphazard so far. I’d like to give the game a second chance, but they seem to have chosen the iffyiest sort of manner to get it out to folks.

It never ends well 
   
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 stonehorse wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
but either way a dead game is dead.


Sales at the recent Gen Con far exceed the expectations of PP, so much so that they had to cut short the offer. It was scheduled to run until the 10th of August, they pulled it I think 1 day after launch.

Warmachine may have fallen from favour, and be a game that isn't seen a lot, but that doesn't mean it is dead.
Well you can skip your next haircut with how fast that went over your head

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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 Overread wrote:
 McDougall Designs wrote:
 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
Loss leaders/low profit boxes are all very well, but they would really need something else to sell to be able to support it (no doubt it's coming but it's not around yet)

so you might get them in a couple of years if things go well, but for the moment occasional convention bargains will have to do


Not with their current change to 3D printing production methods.

They are trending towards higher prices, fewer models. Which when you apply Economy of scale means they are looking to limit production to higher priced items.

Which tracks, because a print that takes 6 hours takes, well, 6 hours and you'd rather make $15 than $5 for that time.

Loss leaders work if they are able to be massed produced for little cost input. They work for 3D prints if you have a vast quantity of printers, but at that point proper injection moulded plastic is cheaper.


Personally my thoughts are that PP has gone for 3D printing as its the cheapest way to setup and can be done in different regions without vastly increased costs.
I think it gives them basically an affordable breathing room through which they can try and regrow the power and income from Warmachine and Hordes.

IF it fails they aren't vastly out of pocket
IF it ticks over they can keep going and earn a modest profit even if it never becomes a major game
IF it takes off again they can later start investing in other production methods like Siocast machines and such. Then get back toward general manufacture.


3D printing doesn't scale up as nicely as casting methods because, as you say, a 6 hour print takes 6 hours. So the only way to scale up is to buy more machines and that means more overhead to keep up with them, space and staff and such.

But they can certainly have some scaling room.

Plus an added bonus if they can get the regional production hubs working is that it lets them get around some current issues with international shipping.


Everything you say is good. Except siocast. Siocast is a middle of the road, cheap material that has a tendency towards weakness and bubbles. The siocast spanish napoleonics from Warlord were plagued with this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Toofast wrote:
 LunarSol wrote:
Luxury is mostly a fancy word for niche. In modern times anything short of mass market is borderline bespoke. GW is the closest thing to the economy of scale most mainstream hobbies enjoy and its still incredibly niche by comparison. No different from luxury cars with a lot of custom options vs the mass market stuff that distributes the cost to manufacture over a larger user base.


There is a big difference in what I explained above. When you buy a Porsche, you don't just get a nicer car than when you buy a Honda. You get an entire experience that's only available by being an owner of that brand. Cruises to the Caribbean with other owners, private jet/hangar tours, 5 star dinners, priority parking in special lots at car shows and races, etc that aren't open to Honda owners or comparable to anything Honda offers. That's what you get for the money beyond just nicer leather seats, headlight washers, and 400hp. What do you get for being a GW customer over buying recasts or 3D printing your own models? Nothing. The 3D printer or recast buyer has access to all the same events, tables, leagues, campaigns, etc that anyone else has. There is no benefit other than getting higher quality models, there is no luxury experience that goes along with being a customer which isn't afforded to customers of less luxurious brands. That's the difference between buying a Porsche over a Honda and buying GW/PP over bones/recast/3d prints. That's what I think of when I hear "luxury" brand, an experience above and beyond what you would get from a cheaper competitor.


That is because luxury and luxurious can mean different things.

Hell, the word itself has more than one meaning.

The full customer experience with a luxury brand that you describe is one such meaning.

When applied to wargaming, luxury in terms of a brand being a "luxury brand" is relating to the cost/quality of the models, rather than the experience.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/08/10 00:35:40


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