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 Ghool wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

You have tons of models but can’t play one of the 28 legacy armies that will be available in October?

No I can’t because I never bought into the theme lists are awesome BS.
I have a large collection of varied models that were fun to paint and looked cool.

That's funny, I can't play one of the legacy armies because I thoroughly bought into the theme lists are awesome BS! I have a moderate collection of specific models that were fun to paint and looked cool. They just happened to be earlier ones that despite significant support at the time around what I thought was the implied protagonist of my faction, have vanished.

Honestly, I'd been half-following the new edition because I'd had enough detox time to see if maybe I was up for some steampunk robot action again and maybe bring back some fun, but nope, my armies don't exist as (previously explicitly thematic) complete armies anymore.

Seems like PP's new legacy lists are really working out, I wish them the best

Aside from Cygnar Gun Mages (RIP ), I can't imagine what you might be referring to. Care to elaborate?

That's funny, I can't play one of the legacy armies because I thoroughly bought into the theme lists are awesome BS! I have a moderate collection of specific models that were fun to paint and looked cool. They just happened to be earlier ones that despite significant support at the time around what I thought was the implied protagonist of my faction, have vanished.

Ooooh, which theme?

I've gone through the 28 supplied armies, and overall I should be good (I'll be able to run about 11 of the the armies).

Of course, the other thing to note is that once every model gets rules, I would expect Unlimited to be played for quite some time (at least 2ish years).

chaos0xomega wrote:
Aside from Cygnar Gun Mages (RIP ), I can't imagine what you might be referring to. Care to elaborate?

Very curious what they'll do with Gun Mages. They're iconic and all, but as an army they don't work at all. They do seem well suited for the cadre system.

Regarding the value of the starter sets, I think pp ones are priced quite cheap. They cost the same as a combat patrol box from gw, but contain considerable more minis. Combat patrols also don't have any extras, and they give you 1/4 of a standard army, while pp ones give you 1/2 of an army, and that assuming 100 points will be the norm.

 emanuelb wrote:
Regarding the value of the starter sets, I think pp ones are priced quite cheap. They cost the same as a combat patrol box from gw, but contain considerable more minis. Combat patrols also don't have any extras, and they give you 1/4 of a standard army, while pp ones give you 1/2 of an army, and that assuming 100 points will be the norm.

Do you mean these boxes ?

https://mgla.pl/produkt/combat-patrol-orks,25517

In my store you can buy two for the cost of one MK4 box and still have some change.

https://mgla.pl/produkt/orgoth-sea-raiders-core-army-starter-przedsprzeda-do-28-08,26589

(and this store only has limited offer for such a low price on mk4 boxes. It is actually so low that another store decided not to sell them, because they couldn't be so competitive with their prices - you could buy 3 Combat Patrol boxes for the non-discounted price
https://qualigeeks.eu/cygnar-storm-legion-core-army-starter-set
The discount was only for preorders.)

So yeah, but actually no.

Combat Patrols are £90 from GW directly

Duel army sets run a gauntlet from £100 to £150 depending on the contents


Warmachine sets are £175 rrp and about £150 with store discount.


So basically yeah, Warmachine sets are near double the price of an entry point GW set for Combat Patrol. They are more in line with the top end of GW's sets.




Which is why there's a worry. GW are the biggest player in the market and in their line up the only game that actually has a starter set at that price point is Adepticus Titanicus - and GW were really cautious about that price working. Even now AT has multiple cheaper options to get into it,
Games like Dystopian Wars and Dropfleet etc... have sets at the £100 region. Infinity has also started with similarly priced boxed sets, which also contain pretty much a full army for the tabletop


This is the worry; PP have set themselves up with their core sets being at the absolute top end of the wargaming market price wise; with a much reduced sku system. On the one hand it might be that being at the top end hampers growth so that PP can keep up with demand without requiring additional investment. On the other it might well mean that Warmachine becomes a very niche game that's super hard to get new people into. Heck even those coming back are going to be a hard sell on sets that expensive.
Yes because the game uses fewer models you have "more" of an army. However the sticker shock on the set is much higher and, currently, with no cheaper alternative on the horizon (unless PP decide to make the event sets a default option). How much you need to get to an army doesn't matter as much as how much it costs to get started. Once you're "in" the system and collecting and gaming the sky is the limit. But you have to get people to that point.

This is the worry; PP have set themselves up with their core sets being at the absolute top end of the wargaming market price wise; with a much reduced sku system.

Not only that, PP have set themselves up with their core sets being at the absolute top end of the wargaming market price wise, with a reputation among the wargaming community that is at rock bottom.

Im a long time player. I have a lot of models and im interested in seeing what Mk4 actaully brings once its out of Beta and everything has been released. But im not buying anything new for a long time. And TBH, if I was a new wargamer, I would not be looking at WM/H given the high price point and overwhelming volume of negative info out there about the game/company/community.

That actually reminds me that a lot of stores also got burned by PP on supply issues too. So a lot of retailers might be making the same assessments we are. Yes the SKU is smaller, yes production and shipping should be better and regionalised; but that's a big gamble on price.

IT means the stores that likely stock them now might well stock them with the new MKIV as those stores likely have a healthy active population of players. But any other store that's on the fringe or hasn't stocked them before/in a while might not feel that £150 starters are going to actually sell or sell fast enough to recoup investment.

We really have to hope that the strong Gencon sales and feedback on these price issues get back to PP and that they do consider making more affordable smaller starter sets for their big launch. MKIV needs to be a soaring release with a huge amount of hype and popularity from the get-go. A huge positive upswing. More affordable starters is clearly a big part of any such upswing in attention.

It kind of feels like PP have done that thing where you need your product to make ten million, so you price it at one million and then you only have to sell ten copies to hit your target..

 Siygess wrote:
It kind of feels like PP have done that thing where you need your product to make ten million, so you price it at one million and then you only have to sell ten copies to hit your target..

Following GW Marketing 101 then.

The prices do seem rather extremely high though. Pushes me out of being interested at all.

I think it is really the market you are in. price wise it seems GW gives the EU and the UK better prices than in the US (and Australia from what i have heard).

Here the PP army box is far cheaper for what you get because you would have to buy 2 combat patrol boxes in most cases at $150 each from GW to roughly match the same number of minis by type.

PP box khador winter corp $200
14 base infantry
2 heros
3 heavy infantry
3 elite infantry
2 vehicles (with 64 variant loadout combinations)

by comparison GW combat patrol boxes for $150

ADMECH
10 basic infantry
1 hero
3 heavy infantry
1vehicle

Dark angels
5 basic infantry
1 hero
3 heavy infantry
1 vehicle

Tau
10 basic infantry
3 elite infantry
5 drones
2 heros
1 vehicle

Dark eldar
15 base infantry
1 hero
2 vehicles

ETC...

By US prices that is actually not a bad deal when compared to GW.

GW Prices are all over the place internationally for no obvious reason. Usually, Poland and the Scandinavian countries that do not use Euro get the best deal, followed by the UK, followed by the EU. Then there is a large gap until you get to Canada, the US and Australia. The price difference between Poland/Scandinavia and Autralia/the US is dramatic: something that costs about 100 USD in Norway usually go for 150USD in the US/Australia. Some are more expensive and I have seen the Aussies paying 2x the price at times. The prices don't seem to change with currency fluctuations. I suspect they were set a long time ago, and GW fears to alienate the market by suddenly changing prices as currencies fluctuate.

And the market leader tends to determine the price point, even if that market leader has strange pricing policies and operate internationally. Hell, back in the late 2000s, when the dollar was very weak against the NOK, we got WMH models for almost nothing compared to GW models. You could get two lists for the price of a Combat Patrol at the most extreme.

 Overread wrote:
That actually reminds me that a lot of stores also got burned by PP on supply issues too. So a lot of retailers might be making the same assessments we are. Yes the SKU is smaller, yes production and shipping should be better and regionalised; but that's a big gamble on price.

IT means the stores that likely stock them now might well stock them with the new MKIV as those stores likely have a healthy active population of players. But any other store that's on the fringe or hasn't stocked them before/in a while might not feel that £150 starters are going to actually sell or sell fast enough to recoup investment.

We really have to hope that the strong Gencon sales and feedback on these price issues get back to PP and that they do consider making more affordable smaller starter sets for their big launch. MKIV needs to be a soaring release with a huge amount of hype and popularity from the get-go. A huge positive upswing. More affordable starters is clearly a big part of any such upswing in attention.

I spoke to my local store to see what they intend to do about MKIV, they had got burned with past dealing with PP, the response I got was even if they could get it until 1) PP prove that they have stock steadily available on good terms and the local groups actually play it they have no intention to even try stocking MKIV. The local players have said at the moment they are treating it as vaporware and believe its available when they see it stoked in stores its also being treated with an "wtf are those prices" attitude locally.

Kaptajn Congoboy wrote:
GW Prices are all over the place internationally for no obvious reason. Usually, Poland and the Scandinavian countries that do not use Euro get the best deal, followed by the UK, followed by the EU. Then there is a large gap until you get to Canada, the US and Australia. The price difference between Poland/Scandinavia and Autralia/the US is dramatic: something that costs about 100 USD in Norway usually go for 150USD in the US/Australia. Some are more expensive and I have seen the Aussies paying 2x the price at times. The prices don't seem to change with currency fluctuations. I suspect they were set a long time ago, and GW fears to alienate the market by suddenly changing prices as currencies fluctuate.

Aye, it's actually crazy sometimes.
For example of something that's already basically overpriced;

The new Chaos Cultists cost 140 PLN in Poland, which is a smidge under 30 USD - not too shabby by GW standards, but I'd say it's still too much.
In USA, however, they cost 45 USD. So that's an over 50% increase in price.
In NZ, they cost a whopping 90 NZD. That's 55 USD and then some, almost twice of what they cost in Poland.

Oh, I forgot the poor New Zealanders. They really get the stick.

One day someone is going to discover how to undercut US/Aus/Can/Nz prices by exporting from Scandinavia, Poland or the UK without GW noticing and shutting them down and then all GW players can enjoy US prices

It used to be that you could sometimes get vehicle kits cheaper from Forge World in the US because you'd pay UK prices for it instead of what GW charges for the base kits here.

The long and the short of it is that yeah, in Europe, PP models can be very expensive compared to GW models. This applies to a lot of US companies. MCP models are horrifyingly expensive in Norway; a two-model pack can cost the equivalent of $50 and the big single models can cost over $100. Malifaux 4-model starters can easily cost $50 or more.

Personally, I hope that PP can get the price point down for their european market if/when they find a company (or more) that can do what Cerberus did for them with metal and partly resins (before they branched out into making their own miniature line), but with 3d printing. That sure would help promote the game over here.

The pricing has definitely killed my interest for mkiv , along with not being able to get a preview box.

Seeing a lot of GE comparisons , well here in England the cheapest I’ve seen the $200 starter is £155. That’s frankly ludicrous. That’s two discounted GW combat patrols plus another squad or character and then I’d have a 1k or more list to use. And plenty of opponents.

I fear PP hasn’t thought this through or failed to realise how much they have burnt their overseas retail relations.

That's a big problem for me. I wouldn't mind paying $200 if I knew I would have opponents. I do mind gambling $200 plus however many hours of assembly/paint on a game that might not have another player in my state, let alone a group of players. I don't see my local stores getting back into stocking PP. They have no incentive to try and maintain a playerbase, and there's no more press gangers to do it either. Who else is buying this game for me to play against?

Yep. I won't be first to buy here. First there needs to be active player base settled before i consider for this price

Who else is buying this game for me to play against?

As subset of the existing and former player base. Not sure if I have heard of any new people getting in (in any significant numbers)

Sunno wrote:

Who else is buying this game for me to play against?

As subset of the existing and former player base. Not sure if I have heard of any new people getting in (in any significant numbers)

We've got a decent spike in interest locally. Half dozen or so players that were showing interest in Brawlmachine that see this as a better jumping on point. About 50:50 in terms of people excited for the new armies and bought GenCon boxes and those that are happy to use this as an excuse to buy an army of legacy stuff. Whether its enough to bring the community back to its pre-COVID size largely depends on how many players come back to test out their old stuff, though things are looking fairly optimistic over all.

So I tried to preorder an Orgoth starter from one of my LGS ... but they aren't currently planning to stock MK4. They've been burned by PP in the past plus feel the $75 battle boxes are too expensive to get new players in (IF they were even available), let alone the $200 chonkers, which are too expensive to get returning players in.

There's another LGS in town, but I figured the one that actually stocks MonPoc, Riot Quest and new MK3 stuff would be game. The other one liquidated their PP stock long ago and definitely has zero room for MK4 on its shelves.

Sunno wrote:

Who else is buying this game for me to play against?

As subset of the existing and former player base. Not sure if I have heard of any new people getting in (in any significant numbers)

The problem with new people is always
a) how do they find out about it?
and
b) how do they start a group from scratch?

PP really needs the existing players to carry the banner for them, and I'm not sure that's going to happen.

We don't have any existing players in this part of Florida, despite having players for almost every other game. I don't think their new direction is enough to get stores to stock it and play groups to start from nothing.

Funny enough, the prior community of players locked into Warmachine is what inspired me to build something a little more flexible. We just play games that interest people, people pick up whatever interests them, some games stick, some don't. People call out what they want to play and people jump in. Not a lot of week to week consistency, but its felt a lot healthier than being locked into weekly practice. The new armies are looking to fit well into that kind of community and some of our early test games are looking promising that it will be one that sticks..

Yeah, biggest frustration I had when I was maining WMHDs was that most of the rest of the community was mainLINING WMHDs - as in they were addicted and didn't want to ever play a pallet cleanser or take a brak and play another game for a few weeks. They just kept playng WMHDs until they burned out and didn't want to play anything at all anymore.

PP really needs the existing players to carry the banner for them, and I'm not sure that's going to happen.

It's not, at least with our group

We have 11 active WM/H players, most are there every weekend. we have large collections of minis to play with, and we have no interest in where they are taking the rules for MKIV.

So, we will happily keep playing MKIII where we already own all the rules, and models we like to use.

Voss wrote:

Sunno wrote:

Who else is buying this game for me to play against?

As subset of the existing and former player base. Not sure if I have heard of any new people getting in (in any significant numbers)

The problem with new people is always
a) how do they find out about it?
and
b) how do they start a group from scratch?

PP really needs the existing players to carry the banner for them, and I'm not sure that's going to happen.

They could use volunteers perhaps? Call them gangpressers, something like that.