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 Overread wrote:
Thing is 3D printing as PP are doing it is purely production. Consumer wise it should be no different to casting because PP are still intending to distribute through normal channels. It really should be just like shifting from metal to plastic. It shouldn't influence the market in the sense of suddenly changing demographics.

There's some advantages in terms of being able to produce product in the EU for distribution, but overall you're correct.

We've got interest in MK4 locally but its very stalled due to the lack of product. PP keeps promising new content but hasn't gotten the Dusk starter out and that leaves me hard pressed to sell the game to the people who have been excited about stuff like Khymera. I've played quite a bit and overall I'm really happy with the edition, but its definitely not "out" yet. It's largely Mk3 armies on Mk3 scenarios playing with new unit sizes and movement.

I think MK4's best chance for success is a soft relaunch with SR24. Basically an opportunity to resell the game in its complete form as opposed to the relatively robust but ultimately still extended beta rollout we've seen this year. Hit the end of the roadmap. New armies to come, cadres to release, etc, but the core objectives have been reached.

- Legacy Army Rules Complete
- First 6 (?) new army starters available for purchase
- New SR with a focus on 75 point games (starter plus expansion) well suited for 50 point games (starter boxes)

What they can't afford at this point is let the legacy armies continue to define the game into SR24. The new rules and products are built around selling people a very fulfilling 50 point experience that is easily expanded into a deeper 75 point game. That's a game that I can sell to players both new and old, but that can't really happen if the scenarios remain focused on the Mk3 scale game or if PP can't actually get product to shelves. I think it can be done, but at the moment I'm not certain PP is focused on making it happen.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
You don't need to take something personally to be burnt by a business model and not want to work with them again.

Sure- but retailers deal with this all the time- especially from Games Workshop. So they don't stop working with companies that use this business model (the model of producing new editions and phasing out old things).

I can see them complain about outdated stock in a more general sense, but I'm having a hard time imagining a retailer that would take this personally enough to not stock a game if they think it will sell.

That's the thing I'm seeing locally. None of the old players want to return (most were Hordes players and the new edition has had nothing to offer them that they want). The competitive scene got too toxic locally before I moved to the area, then the edition changes burned the LGS so bad he refuses to order anything PP. MESBG, ASOI&F, and even Xwing have more traction locally that WM.

My anecdotal evidence:

I used to see a lot of Warmachine played locally and I used to get a lot of comissions to paint Warmachine armies.

I feel like it dropped off sometime in Mark III.

And so far, I haven't really seen any Mark IV stuff cross my table (though I'd love to get to paint some of those minis).

Which makes me wonder if Mark IV is rebounding the game from a low point, or if it is pushing the remnant off a cliff.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
Then there's the question- will stores want to pick this up if they previously phased out their stock of Warmachine? Many stores around here clearanced out their Warmachine stock already- I wonder if they'd be more or less inclined to pick up the new version.

Both of my LGS are hard passes on PP beyond MonPoc. I asked them if they were taking orders for MK4 about a year ago and I received very solid NO's in both cases Seems like MK3 was the killer, and neither owner sees any reason to jump through PP's ordering hoops to put very expensive MK4 boxed armies on the shelf that have a low likelihood of moving (as I was told by the one that still sells MonPoc). In fact, it wasn't until this last weekend when I was in Hamilton, ON for a Kings of War tournament that I saw my first MK4 boxes! And I must say they do look good. I picked up a siege tarask for a tight $80 CAD to commemorate the moment.

But in other news, I just plonked another $100 USD on Cryx stuff because I really would like to paint up the Cryx I started 10+ years ago I know a few dudes locally I can play with, and I'm headed to Gen Con next year, where having 75 pts of undead pirate robots seems like a relevant thing to have.

 odinsgrandson wrote:

Which makes me wonder if Mark IV is rebounding the game from a low point, or if it is pushing the remnant off a cliff.

I think its overall exactly what it needs to be to rebound. I'm just not sure the market is actually up for second chances these days, nor am I certain PP can deliver what is needed to make it happen.

I've got a couple things I would like to finish up for hobby sake and trade off some random stuff I just can't find the time to do it

I've enjoyed the few random figures that Privateer have deemed worthy to sell individually.

I know they're in the market to sell their army boxes, but that's not a market I want to enter anymore. Impulse level solo models or small units? Absolutely, I'd love to get more.

I wish they'd offer more of the models from those starters up individually or just let me print them myself.
Of course I also wish they'd do more with their already existing Minicrate sculpts and somehow modify or change them up so they can offer them up again as 3D prints... but we know that won't happen.

 odinsgrandson wrote:


Sure- but retailers deal with this all the time- especially from Games Workshop. So they don't stop working with companies that use this business model (the model of producing new editions and phasing out old things).

Sure, but when GW burns you, there's always another big mover coming from them to help you recoup your losses.

Can't say the same about PP, unfortunately.

Locally, there's zero MK4 stuff available, even on the month long order lists that have some truly exotic stuff. No one plays it either, and we have people playing Warzone and Confrontation around here.

My FLGS used to be hugely into Warmahordes. No sign of any play there in quite some time, and the stock was all discounted and sold off some time back. If the staff member who used to play it a lot were still around, perhaps there might be an effort to get it up and running again. But he's long gone, as are the handful of players who I remember playing it back in the day.

Though it's not just Warmahordes. The shutdown broke just about everything at the store (though Warmahordes was already dead by the time that started). People play GW (almost exclusively 40K). And I've heard that there's Shatterpoint being played, although I haven't been by the store on the night it's supposedly played. Other than that, the games that used to be played at the store died during the shutdown.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I wish they'd offer more of the models from those starters up individually or just let me print them myself.

Big same, I very much want the roks from the Orgoth release and very much do not want the Orgoth infantry. Printing them myself would be extra nice. I have been told there's a plan to make units available separately but as we can see, PP is struggling to get their new faction boxes out the door, so not holding my breath on the contents being broken out.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I wish they'd offer more of the models from those starters up individually or just let me print them myself.

Big same, I very much want the roks from the Orgoth release and very much do not want the Orgoth infantry. Printing them myself would be extra nice. I have been told there's a plan to make units available separately but as we can see, PP is struggling to get their new faction boxes out the door, so not holding my breath on the contents being broken out.

Interesting enough they just put a couple Khador units up as singles on their webstore. I'd not count on anything appearing soon though.

 LunarSol wrote:
Interesting enough they just put a couple Khador units up as singles on their webstore. I'd not count on anything appearing soon though.

It's happening!! For the curious, the available singles are:
- Dire Wolf Heavy Warjack
- Great Bear Heavy Warjack
- Shocktrooper Gunners
- Arkanists
- Kapitan Ekaterina Baranova

Just FYI, the 3rd caster and warjacks are available for all factions. Those are actually retail releases. The units are the only thing I believe is webstore exclusive.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 odinsgrandson wrote:


Sure- but retailers deal with this all the time- especially from Games Workshop. So they don't stop working with companies that use this business model (the model of producing new editions and phasing out old things).

Sure, but when GW burns you, there's always another big mover coming from them to help you recoup your losses.

Can't say the same about PP, unfortunately.

That sounds like a self fulfilling prophesy. Because the reason that PP doesn't have a big mover after finishing out MK III is because game stores don't get onboard with MK IV.

There's definitely feedback affecting momentum, but it's not a self-fulfilling prophecy, it's more of a vicious circle. PP threw their weight around when they were a big fish and could and didn't mind burning some people in the process, turns out they depend on those people in leaner times and aren't big enough to be GW where their momentum and visibility can keep up the cash flow and weather the dissatisfaction. PP burned the store visibility and word of mouth they relied on, and then want people to commit more money to expensive purchases (for instance, even with everything that's burned me, I might have gone in for the new Magnus from nostalgia if it had been a single, but I'm not impulse buying a $70 kit).

Frankly, I've been burned by plenty of games over the years, and there's the part where you take it personally or whatever, but then there's also the part where you've got to ask, what about next time? For instance, with PP's reboot, they're asking players who have committed probably in many cases thousands of dollars to an invalidated collection, to buy a new collection that of course is also haunted by the fact that it exists because they wanted to make money by invalidating a line.

FWIW, I'm not buying mkIV and before that I decided I wouldn't buy Primaris, have basically stuck to that, and don't especially feel like I'm missing out anymore than one does about what a faction you don't play gets something cool, but that's fine: it's nicer to not care about chasing what they want me to chase.

I've said this before, but imagine if they'd listened to other players earlier and did mk4 sooner while they had cash flow. But instead of launching with everything invalidated, they brought back everything, focused on the casual play at smaller sized games and tables, enough to get people back out there playing... Then launched the timeline advance.

They keep acting like their games have a captive market enough that tossing away their old fans with collections is going to be fine, but miss out on the free word of mouth.

Sarigar wrote:
Locally there is a few guys who play Warmachine on Monday nights. It uses one table out of the 32 tables the store has. The store does not carry Warmachine that I have seen.

Overall, it appears to have very little interest.

Ah, I see you're local to me. Those guys are actually pretty cool and in a weird way I sort of admire how much they're trying to keep the game going, but yeah man, my normal response to them saying "it's coming back!" is "well let's go to the shelves and buy some...oh...wait..."

 Vertrucio wrote:
I've said this before, but imagine if they'd listened to other players earlier and did mk4 sooner while they had cash flow. But instead of launching with everything invalidated, they brought back everything, focused on the casual play at smaller sized games and tables, enough to get people back out there playing... Then launched the timeline advance.

They keep acting like their games have a captive market enough that tossing away their old fans with collections is going to be fine, but miss out on the free word of mouth.

The main thing is they can't really continue to provide models for everything. They don't have means of producing more of a lot of it and resculpting isn't likely to produce enough new sales to justify the process, which is why we're getting "new" Khador and Cygnar. Their SKU bloat was completely unmanageable which is why we're seeing the cutoff.

That's not a positive thing mind you. I pretty much agree with the premise. There's no reason there shouldn't be legacy armies for everything. Even if they wanted to stick to two, it would have been far better to blend armies like we've seen with Circle's Wold/Wolfsworn force than cutting Khador to just MoW and Winter Guard (which should have always been one thing even in MK3).

I think the most important failure in Mk4 though is the inability to stick to the 50/75 point plan. It is without question the most important thing for the game going forward, but something PP just hasn't been willing to support.

 LunarSol wrote:
I think the most important failure in Mk4 though is the inability to stick to the 50/75 point plan. It is without question the most important thing for the game going forward, but something PP just hasn't been willing to support.

All games being (old) 75 point SR or practice therefore is 90% of why I left WM3. Seeing a bunch of (new) 75 point games for WM4 is 90% of why I'm interested again. For me, WM just doesn't feel great when it's at 75/100 ... plus I like when people have to make tougher list decisions, which feels more relevant in 'medium' sized matches.

 Boss Salvage wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I think the most important failure in Mk4 though is the inability to stick to the 50/75 point plan. It is without question the most important thing for the game going forward, but something PP just hasn't been willing to support.

All games being (old) 75 point SR or practice therefore is 90% of why I left WM3. Seeing a bunch of (new) 75 point games for WM4 is 90% of why I'm interested again. For me, WM just doesn't feel great when it's at 75/100 ... plus I like when people have to make tougher list decisions, which feels more relevant in 'medium' sized matches.

The game's at Mk4 50 we've played have been a blast. I'm continually impressed by the experience when running Warcaster armies. I feel Warlocks need 75 points to have enough Fury generation and still some list variety, but beyond that I find 100 point games lose a lot of what makes MK4 charming. I just REALLY want some official scenarios that support 50/75 points appropriately. I mostly use the one from the rulebook or the Brawlmachine scenarios, but PP reusing the SR packet makes games just miserable at anything less than 100.

Brawlmachine scenarios are perfect for 50pts and still work well for 75pts. I agree Hordes can't really play in an interesting way at 50pts, sadly. Wouldn't mind suggested points limits to be 50-65-80 but 75 pts battles are in a good place too.

Pure kino!

Troolbloods is my faction but these do nothing for me. Way too forced concepts.

There's certainly been some artistic style changes at PP. I wonder if its the result of monster apoc doing well enough that most of their design team left are more of that style than the Warmachine old school style.

There's also the digital painting that they are going in for with the super cartoonish vibrant colours which can really change the impression of a model. Which has more impact when there are fewer people painting and working with their stuff

 Overread wrote:
There's certainly been some artistic style changes at PP. I wonder if its the result of monster apoc doing well enough that most of their design team left are more of that style than the Warmachine old school style.

Isn't Matt WIlson the only original team member left, and he's less hands-on now? This is pretty much second-generation Iron Kingdoms now, designed by people inspired by the twenty-years old originals.

Nah, there's a few OG guys still kicking around, Jason Soles is still there for example. Matt's still also very involved and hands on, that's part of the problem.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Nah, there's a few OG guys still kicking around, Jason Soles is still there for example. Matt's still also very involved and hands on, that's part of the problem.

Hah, was going to say that about Matt as well.

Oh well its their company to run to the ground I guess.

Going through my PP metal collections and yeah would love to see more of that for sure. No need to reinvent the wheel specially if you end up with this mess of a model.

 NAVARRO wrote:
Troolbloods is my faction but these do nothing for me. Way too forced concepts.

I vastly prefer Northkin as a style, but I do enjoy these guys. Shame the Sea King is Legacy because that model is an industry great and should really see more table time.