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So Pre-Great Crusade then, he "created" the Custodes. Something no other human, even non-human such as Cawl or Eldar, have been able to do. I don't know why I'm arguing for him to be divine, but wasn't he also a perpetual? Ala unable to actually die? I mean, even pre-crusade, he was doing things that really push the boundries of "just a man". I guess that's my point, really.

The eldar say he wasn't a god until the Church began deifying him as one, but before that, he wasn't, according to their odd way of looking at it. So then could he have been a Demi-god?

Ala Hercules, or something "God-like"? I bow to people more well read on this, but it seems like the writers just one day suddenly went "poof! The Emperor is a god-esque thing" now. But his sons and the Custodes still say he's a man. But we're gonna give him God powers.

The timeline doesn't make sense to me..

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Something no other human, even non-human such as Cawl or Eldar, have been able to do.

Eldar can (and can create human perpetuals). There's also a short story about Horus encountering modified humans during the Great Crusade that were more powerful than him (IIRC - they also turned themselves into Dune/Tremors style giant worms).

I thought the custodians said that the space marine program was to he scrapped once the crusades where done?

Well, about that. The entire Crusade went spectacularly tits up, and they needed to keep the Astartes around way longer than they intended, while they wait for their magic pile of bones to tell them what to do next.

The Custodes believe certain things, things that make themselves look good. Whether these things are actually true or just self-deception (or lies actually told to them by the Emperor) is unknown. I think the Custodes believe for example that they were the real plan for a future humanity and that the Astartes like the Thunder Warriors were only a temporary measure, to be discarded and destroyed once their usefulness was at an end.

One needs to keep in mind the end goal of The Great Crusade. It’s wasn’t simply “everyone get the toys out, we’re going the full tickle to carve Daddy the biggest Empire we can”. Oh no. The end goal was the total and permanent pacification of The Galaxy, to the point where Mankind was just the dominant sentient species, but the only sentient species.

Now that is of course a bloody tall order. But still achievable given time and resources.

Ullanor is an expression of that. No, it didn’t wipe out the Orky menace, but it did shatter it for the time being. From what we can glean, anyone who was anyone in the Ork hierarchy got all ded and perished there. Anything that remained would in turn be a fragment. A danger still sure - but nothing the Astartes couldn’t handle.

Indeed, that’s how you at least contain Orks. Keep them fragmented. Keep them ground down as finely as you can. Do whatever it takes to stop any given Warboss the chance to gain momentum.

With the Orks more or less dealt with, it probably would’ve been the Eldar up next - and they were still reeling from The Fall. Tricky to find, not that tricky to deal with once a given Craftworld was found.

That done? Well you’ve got Commoragh to worry about, but again it’s be some time until Vect rose to power and the Dark Eldar became a particular threat.

And….that’s about it for Galactic Movers And Shakers in that time period.

But you’d still want Astartes around, because full and total compliance is a long, long job. And we know that other threats (Necron, Tyranid) would emerge in due course. And with some Tomb Worlds activating even back then? You may have seen a organised purge to identify and wreck before they woke up.

The fun thing about Astartes? If we really, really boils it down? They’re a technology. So you could get shot of the original Legions - and still have the capacity to replace them should the need present itself.

Now…the political side? If we once more look to Ultramar as “what could’ve been”?

A pacified, compliant Imperium would be perfectly capable of sustaining its vast population. Not exactly in a perfect Utopia, but certainly a decent “everyone fed, no-one in need” level of existence. Without the frenetic pace needed to maintain the modern day Imperium’s vast armies, production capacity would be less focussed on producing arms and materiel and fuelling the headcount and bellies of the billons, if not trillions, of Men Under Arms.

So….where would dedicated killers such as Astartes fit into that? Who knows.

...if we hadn't had the Heresy, would the 'Nids have shown up at all?

Not that I'm keen on that particular retcon, but...

Well, possibly? Perhaps not quite as en masse, but they would’ve remained out there, in the Outer Dark. I can see tendrils finding us anyway. But without Pharos? Perhaps not the entire species (or what seems to be) at once.

There is the possibility that an otherwise pacified Galaxy, United under the Imperium? Could have more than enough battleships to engage the Hive Fleets in said Outer Dark, striking whilst they remained largely asleep, and hungry.

The more damage you can do there, the less chance the Hive Fleets could replenish losses. And if they can’t replenish losses, their ability to adapt and evolve is likewise dramatically lessened.

Because the tasks a United Imperium would be capable of is….frankly staggering.

I’ll again irritate certain portions of the fan base by pointing out Cawl’s own Magnum Opus as an example of what can be achieved when you have the time to stockpile your toys, and not simply manufacture to maintain.

Hell, in those circumstances something akin to the Kyptmann Gambit might’ve completely worked.

Whilst the Fleets engage in space, whole worlds could be evacuated of human life, and each planet core effectively mined. Open a gap in the fleet’s overall net. Let some through too a planet, and soon as they start feeding, explode that planet. Horrendous losses inflicted, with little to no survivors.

Consider the damage the 18 Legions would inflict on a Hive Fleet at the height of their powers, and remember once the Galaxy was pacified you might’ve seen the Legions expanded further, perhaps the equivalent of a Chapter World per system, complete with its own fleet (the compartmentalisation of the armed forces of course being a result of the Heresy)

Basically imagine each and every system having some kind of Bastion World. Good luck invading with those military resources opposing you.

The other possibility is that the Emperor successfully completed his Webway Project, and moved all human worlds into it - making them safe from external threats.

The Webway was to be used for transport between worlds, not moving them from reality. The plan was to utterly remove humanity's reliance on the Warp for space travel, reducing the risk of possession and interference from the Dark Gods for a fully Psychic human race. At least that was the theory. In practical terms (at least as practical as you can get with non-corporeal entities from a dimension outside of space and time) the Gods don't work that way. The Gods exist and always have existed, even Slaanesh, who was created when the Aeldari empire fell just before the Great Crusade but was worshiped for hundreds if not thousands of years on worlds like Colchis and Laeran. The plan was flawed from the beginning but it still had a chance to weaken the Gods, rather than destroy them.

 Gert wrote:

People keep saying that but nobody has actually shown me a single instance of it happening.

Maybe try paying attention?

No Magnus did not. The combined unrestricted power of the entire Thousand Sons Legion destabilised the boundaries between the Warp and Realspace,

I'd like to see a source for that that isn't your headcanon.

Magnus capped it off with a big teleport spell that destroyed much of central Tizca. Prospero is very much still around after the Wolves invade because the Khan and Mortarion have a fight there.

You might want to look up the definition of "surface".

Also good work on not responding to Magnus destroying starships in orbit from thousands of miles away telekinetically. Him being capable of it kind of crushes your position so your refusal to acknowledge it counts as a concession tbh.

Define "inferior".

Lesser.

The Cacodominus was able to control over 1000 planetary systems by itself, how does that make it inferior to the Emperor?

Because one of these psykers is a throwaway character that was killed by a single chapter of Space Marines and the other forced an entire Legion to heel with a single flex of will.

The Emperor per multiple sources is a threat to the Chaos Gods themselves in terms of psychic might. No psyker, not even the Cacodominus, has accolades like that. It also doesn't help that, while the death scream of the Cacodominus could distort the Astonomicon's signal which the Emperor projects it could not overpower it entirely.

Not really as otherwise planets would never be able to recover from Daemonic invasion and they regularly do.

And they often don't. Depends on the daemon, you have guys like Ka'jagga'nath being released and causing a tide of blood that drives a world insane and violent.

I am very much not thinking that. I'm saying there is a limit to the power of the Emperor and what skills He manifests as a Psyker.

Useless statement. At no point did I even imply the Emperor was omnipotent. But based on his feats and the feats of those he is superior to? He could absolutely have subjugated Terra by himself and done so easily.

If you can provide me a single example of the Emperor single-handedly subjugating an entire planet alone, I'll back off.

Learn to use a little bit of critical thinking my friend. Just because he hasn't done it in-universe doesn't mean he shouldn't be able to, and you seem to be struggling with the "shouldn't" part so I'll help you out a little:

The Emperor doesn't solo planets for narrative reasons despite the setting's psykers having been power crept so much it should be easily possible. No one is arguing that the Emperor has done so, only that he should be able to. With that said while some have implied the development of the Astartes should be unnecessary for him I don't really agree even with the power creep. A world is much smaller than a galaxy.

He made them kneel while they were standing at attention outside of combat and He was in close proximity to them. Not the same thing.

When they are in combat does their resistance to psychic power increase? Interesting, do you have a source to back that up?

"Close proximity" is relative, many were likely many hundreds or even thousands of meters away. I don't think 100,000 marines were mosh pitted around the Emperor.

Never said He couldn't be anywhere, He just can't be everywhere and where He isn't can just rise up against Him as soon as they figure that out.

On a galactic scale? Sure. On a planetary one where the Emperor can immediately show up and crush any rebellion as it is getting started? No. Also no not normally because bluntly most people find themselves slavishly devoted to the Emperor on contact, you know, because he is the most powerful psyker in history.

Which isn't to say that he won't ever need people to keep the peace on Terra. He would of course given he is busy on the Crusade itself. The only thing people are saying is that the Emperor is powerful enough given the strength of psykers in 40kj that he reasonably shouldn't have needed the Thunder Warriors to subjugate Terra and this is pretty demonstrably true.

Emps got a huge power up after the unification of Terra with the whole Moloch fun times. Also, every minute he spends pacifying enemies with his might is a minute not spent on any of the long, long list of other gak he needs to do. Using the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra also allowed for a beta test, before the resulting Astartes were sent on the Crusade proper. Certainly for conquering multiple other worlds simultaneously he would need them. Better to give them a test drive somewhere where Emps can be around for the testing.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Emps got a huge power up after the unification of Terra with the whole Moloch fun times.

If this is true fair enough, what's the source on this one? Also unclear on the timeline regarding this tbh, do the Thunder Warriors predate the Primarchs? I genuinely don't remember.

Also, every minute he spends pacifying enemies with his might is a minute not spent on any of the long, long list of other gak he needs to do.

He was physically present for a lot (most? All?) of those battles though.

Using the Thunder Warriors to conquer Terra also allowed for a beta test, before the resulting Astartes were sent on the Crusade proper. Certainly for conquering multiple other worlds simultaneously he would need them. Better to give them a test drive somewhere where Emps can be around for the testing.

This is a fair point, if you look at the Thunder Warriors as a test drive.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Emps got a huge power up after the unification of Terra with the whole Moloch fun times.

If this is true fair enough, what's the source on this one? Also unclear on the timeline regarding this tbh

The novel 'Vengeful Spirit', but it was during the DAoT.

If Melkor didnt have other vala as a counterpart I very much doubt that he would have use his time creating an army of orcs and trolls... He would have simply shown his true nature to elves and humans and waited for worship.

So from a basic logically POV either the power of the EMP was not undisputed in pre unification Terra or his powers had clear limits.

The self restrain Superman scenario makes very little sense, just like in the comic books... You can obviously fabricate a post facto logic to everything, but thats beyond the point.

Related: While it might be a hoax, the poster of this thread claims to have contacted Graham McNeill, who confirmed that the Emperor could have been killed at Ullanor (and therefor several other times).

beast_gts wrote:
Related: While it might be a hoax, the poster of this thread claims to have contacted Graham McNeill, who confirmed that the Emperor could have been killed at Ullanor (and therefor several other times).

Grahams pretty open to talking with the fans, when he was over in my neck of the woods he happily went and took questions and signed books, spending an evening interacting with the fans..

His decision entirely. So I readily belive he's answered the question

 Mr Nobody wrote:

Gert wrote:Custodes then Thunder Warriors. The Primarchs and Astartes were the final product designed to be the perfect warriors for the expansion and maintaining of humanity's domain.

beast_gts wrote:Inferno hints that Custodes came first, then states they were 'unveiled' at the same time - 30 Custodes fighting at the head of the new-born Thunder Legion.

But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...

Not really. The Emperor and Malcador had the former sigilite fortress as the imperial dungegons basically. Before they went off Plant plundering they acquired the smartest minds on bio-engineering and Alchemical horrors left on Terra. The Emperor steals kids, physically looks for them, then plunders them and remakes them as his personal bodyguards/friends/companions etc etc. He probley has tons of failures along the way until Valdor takes and becomes the first. Then he makes a few more Custodies while working on the mass produced inferior model ( the Thunder Warriors that he knows are just to take terra then be culled hence the gene mutations, they were stop gap warriors) He starts to produce Thunder Warriors enough to fulfill his aims while working on the generals. they get stolen so he uses whats left over to makes the Space Marines and field test them, work out the kinks during terra.
He takes Terra, culls the Thunder Warriors with the custodies and Space Marines. Needs to boost their numbers so he takes Luna and then starts pumping them out to take the Solar System. Lands on mars and pretends to be their god so they will work for him. Takes the Solar System and launches the Fleets out to take the local clusters....

 Mr Nobody wrote:


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...

Why are spears the most prevalent weapons in human history? Why was "pointy stick" omnipresent on the battlefield on a massive scale even when we had bows, crossbows, cannons, swords (of all types), axes, chain and platemail, and early firearms, all of which were much more dangerous / protective?

All you need to make spears is a tree and a rock, and if you're really desperate you can swap the tree for branches and lose the rock. The simplicity of creating these things, vs the specialized skillset required to create (and maintain) things like swords, bows, and various types of armor is massive. And this is before you get into the actual effectiveness of them. Spears are operable on the premise of "point at the bad dudes and thrust" with the thrust being optional. A group of nobodies can be almost instantly armed (or quickly arm themselves) with no specialized skillset among them, and can then reliably fight to a decent degree with no combat experience.

Custodes are the pinnacle of the art but they are, as has been said, difficult and time consuming to make. They must be crafted by hand with great care and over a long period of time. They're an arbalest or some other highly effective, very technical, and difficult to produce weapon. Meanwhile Thunder Warriors (and later Astartes) are spears. While not as effective as the more advanced weaponry they can be cranked out with ease, en mass, and still be quite effective. They're not as individually powerful as the high-tech counter part, but one professional soldier with an arbalest isn't going to win against fifty yokels with sharpened sticks.

Yup.

In theory, it’s only time preventing The Legions/Chapters being comprised of Custodes.

Think of Astartes process as an off the peg suit. Something nice like Marks and Spencer’s. The Custodes are a custom made suit from Saville Row. Measured to perfection based on your bod.

Now in theory, it was kind of always possible that without The Heresy, The Emperor may have found improved ways to create Custodes. Perhaps some method to automate the process. At the very least, it seems imminently plausible the Primaris Project may have followed the Webway Project.

I say that as we know Cawl’s improvements stem from his access to The Emperor’s equipment, logs and notes. And we can look to the Thunder Warriors, Custodes, Primarch and Astartes projects as evidence The Emperor isn’t exactly a big believer in Just Stopping There.

Sure the Astartes absolutely got the job done. But you’d still improve them if given the ability and opportunity, because when it’s an improvement and stabilisation of the original process, which results in stronger and more resilient post-humans, it’s an absolute no-brainer.

So….Crusade, break the immediate Orky menace (really the only vaguely organised resistance on a Galactic Scale), hand over the reins, get The Webway going, work on improving the already pretty impressive given they were a bodge job Astartes, all using technology freshly recovered via The Great And Ongoing Crusade.

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...

Why are spears the most prevalent weapons in human history? Why was "pointy stick" omnipresent on the battlefield on a massive scale even when we had bows, crossbows, cannons, swords (of all types), axes, chain and platemail, and early firearms, all of which were much more dangerous / protective?

All you need to make spears is a tree and a rock, and if you're really desperate you can swap the tree for branches and lose the rock. The simplicity of creating these things, vs the specialized skillset required to create (and maintain) things like swords, bows, and various types of armor is massive. And this is before you get into the actual effectiveness of them. Spears are operable on the premise of "point at the bad dudes and thrust" with the thrust being optional. A group of nobodies can be almost instantly armed (or quickly arm themselves) with no specialized skillset among them, and can then reliably fight to a decent degree with no combat experience.

Custodes are the pinnacle of the art but they are, as has been said, difficult and time consuming to make. They must be crafted by hand with great care and over a long period of time. They're an arbalest or some other highly effective, very technical, and difficult to produce weapon. Meanwhile Thunder Warriors (and later Astartes) are spears. While not as effective as the more advanced weaponry they can be cranked out with ease, en mass, and still be quite effective. They're not as individually powerful as the high-tech counter part, but one professional soldier with an arbalest isn't going to win against fifty yokels with sharpened sticks.

Well laid analogy.

Unfortunetly you are factually wrong on almost all details.

Also if Space Marines are "mass produced" why are they so few in the setting? ... In 40k we have the cannonical 1 million (which is riculously tiny on the IOM scale)... Even if the real number is 3 times higher its still less than a single sorotitas order... And probably there are more Knights than tactical/intercessor astartes.

Even if in 30k we have 10 times more marines in the legions we are talking of a negible number of troops.

90 or 99% of the astartes firepower is in their navies... The actual military significance of the supermen is irrelevant.

Every writer makes up new SM legions, like it's a thing. The Snakes of Ithaca? The Reclaimers? The Redeemers? Whatever the "deathwatch-esque" chapter was in Inquistor:Martyr. The Storm Watchers or something.

Anyway, there is literally zero limit on how many Space Marines exist, because I can create one out of thin air right now. The Fluff Stompers of Fartslovokia, a chapter that favors kicking their opponents to death. They primarily use jump packs, and do lui-kang kicks across entire battlefields. They are a decendent of their founders, the Knights of Fluff, which are decended through many successors, from the original Imperial Fists Legion. Like, 12th cousin, twice re-founded.

Point is, we can't make the logical statement: "Space Marines aren't mass-produced". All we know for 100% certain is there is a REALLY SPECIAL Old book, which HARDLY ANYONE GOES BY, that has rules. Rules with which the writer has since decided don't actually matter.

So who is to honestly state how many Space Marines exist? The only possible answer is: "As many as GW wants". Everything else is head cannon.

Vatsetis wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...

Why are spears the most prevalent weapons in human history? Why was "pointy stick" omnipresent on the battlefield on a massive scale even when we had bows, crossbows, cannons, swords (of all types), axes, chain and platemail, and early firearms, all of which were much more dangerous / protective?

All you need to make spears is a tree and a rock, and if you're really desperate you can swap the tree for branches and lose the rock. The simplicity of creating these things, vs the specialized skillset required to create (and maintain) things like swords, bows, and various types of armor is massive. And this is before you get into the actual effectiveness of them. Spears are operable on the premise of "point at the bad dudes and thrust" with the thrust being optional. A group of nobodies can be almost instantly armed (or quickly arm themselves) with no specialized skillset among them, and can then reliably fight to a decent degree with no combat experience.

Custodes are the pinnacle of the art but they are, as has been said, difficult and time consuming to make. They must be crafted by hand with great care and over a long period of time. They're an arbalest or some other highly effective, very technical, and difficult to produce weapon. Meanwhile Thunder Warriors (and later Astartes) are spears. While not as effective as the more advanced weaponry they can be cranked out with ease, en mass, and still be quite effective. They're not as individually powerful as the high-tech counter part, but one professional soldier with an arbalest isn't going to win against fifty yokels with sharpened sticks.

Well laid analogy.

Unfortunetly you are factually wrong on almost all details.

Also if Space Marines are "mass produced" why are they so few in the setting? ... In 40k we have the cannonical 1 million (which is riculously tiny on the IOM scale)... Even if the real number is 3 times higher its still less than a single sorotitas order... And probably there are more Knights than tactical/intercessor astartes.

Even if in 30k we have 10 times more marines in the legions we are talking of a negible number of troops.

90 or 99% of the astartes firepower is in their navies... The actual military significance of the supermen is irrelevant.

Well, he’s not wrong, at all.

Astartes are rare, because the necessary bits and bobs to make one (no, not equip one. Make one) are inherently finite. Chapters maintain their own stock of harvested Progenoid. Terra tithes Progenoid.

Each Chapter is restricted by the Codex Astartes to numbering around 1,000. Some will have more, some will have less. But even if you want to break from Codex, you’re constantly swimming upstream against combat attrition, and restricted by the amount of Progenoid available. Run out of that? No more Astartes for you until more mature and are ready for Harvesting.

Yes new Foundings can be done, but only by the High Lords of Terra. Cawl of course gets a pass on account he was acting on Guilliman’s direct orders, and his creations were desperately needed.

Now, in an ideal situation? Your total 1,000 Marines will all live long enough for both their Progenoid glands to be harvested outside of battlefield retrieval (it doesn’t require the death of the Astartes in question). That gives you 2,000 immediate sources of potential New Astartes. A percentage will be tithed to Terra, not only in case they fancy another Founding, but to make sure your Chapter can be reconstituted should something Bloody Awful Happen. But those ideal situations won’t always occur.

Every Scout killed in action. Every aspirant where the implantation and training process kills them eats into those reserves of viable Progenoid. And even in genetically stable Chapters (Ultramarines, Dark Angels), the Progenoid can go wrong, and not turn out viable. Every full Brother vapourised in combat is Progenoid lost, even where both glands are mature. Even conventional firepower has some chance of ripping through the Progenoid Gland. If a Strike Cruiser or Battle Barge is lost in combat? That’s….that’s a significant amount of Progenoid not about to be harvested any time soon, if ever.

This is why so much is held in reserve. This is partially why the tithe exists.

It’s also why Loyalist Astartes are incredibly fussy about who they elevate beyond Human. You see, whilst being fit and healthy certainly helps your chances, we can look to the Crusade era to show you don’t need to be a particularly impressive Clay for that transformation to work and produce a post-human Astartes. But, when you have strictly finite resources, and a cap on numbers? Being Fussy Makes Sense, because you can afford to be. It can also ensure they’re more psychologically suited to the inevitable hypno-indoctrination.

Vatsetis wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...

Why are spears the most prevalent weapons in human history? Why was "pointy stick" omnipresent on the battlefield on a massive scale even when we had bows, crossbows, cannons, swords (of all types), axes, chain and platemail, and early firearms, all of which were much more dangerous / protective?

All you need to make spears is a tree and a rock, and if you're really desperate you can swap the tree for branches and lose the rock. The simplicity of creating these things, vs the specialized skillset required to create (and maintain) things like swords, bows, and various types of armor is massive. And this is before you get into the actual effectiveness of them. Spears are operable on the premise of "point at the bad dudes and thrust" with the thrust being optional. A group of nobodies can be almost instantly armed (or quickly arm themselves) with no specialized skillset among them, and can then reliably fight to a decent degree with no combat experience.

Custodes are the pinnacle of the art but they are, as has been said, difficult and time consuming to make. They must be crafted by hand with great care and over a long period of time. They're an arbalest or some other highly effective, very technical, and difficult to produce weapon. Meanwhile Thunder Warriors (and later Astartes) are spears. While not as effective as the more advanced weaponry they can be cranked out with ease, en mass, and still be quite effective. They're not as individually powerful as the high-tech counter part, but one professional soldier with an arbalest isn't going to win against fifty yokels with sharpened sticks.

Well laid analogy.

Unfortunetly you are factually wrong on almost all details.

Also if Space Marines are "mass produced" why are they so few in the setting? ... In 40k we have the cannonical 1 million (which is riculously tiny on the IOM scale)... Even if the real number is 3 times higher its still less than a single sorotitas order... And probably there are more Knights than tactical/intercessor astartes.

Even if in 30k we have 10 times more marines in the legions we are talking of a negible number of troops.

90 or 99% of the astartes firepower is in their navies... The actual military significance of the supermen is irrelevant.

I'm factually right on every detail. You're just trying to move the goal posts.

I'm not here arguing the effectiveness of things.The Imperial Guard could wipe out every space marine chapter if they so chose and they could do it without weapons; just throw literally trillions of bodies at thousands of marines and very literally drown them in blood / crush them by weight of corpses. The guard are the stick to the space marines arbalest.

But we're not talking guards vs marines.

Marines are the stick to the custards arbalest. Quick and easy to make with easy-to source parts (marines grow the parts to make more marines). This is factually true. And it explains why the Thunder Warriors, and shortly after the Space Marines, were made despite the "perfect" custodes being on the table. Custodes are extremely difficult and slow to make, and due to that you only need a few of them for specialized tasks and specific pressure points; then you pump out a bunch of spears to let the easily armed chaff do the real leg work.

Whether or not super soldiers were required at all is an entirely different (and utterly pointless) argument. The Emperor thought they were so he made them. Now we've got marines and they're here to stay, the only reason to say they shouldn't be here is to get your jollies from Well Ackchyually-ing people on the interwebs.

Post-human Legions were a necessity I’d say.

Not only do you have limited idea as to what’s out there that’s gonna need it’s head kicked in, but you’re also looking to cow long lost Human Civilisations into Doing As They’re Bloody Well Told.

The Astartes and Primarchs were something new it would seem. A refinement of Thunder Warriors and their predecessor Genhanced Soldiery. And nobody really does Shock And Awe quite like an Astartes assault.

They don’t tend to go for camouflage because you want the enemy to see them coming. Not just coming, but essentially ignoring small arms fire, and even shrugging off heavier weapons.

Their basic equipment leans into this. Their own trinity of Power Armour (for Protectiness), Bolt and Chain weapons for the horrific mess even glancing hits make. Their use of Drop Pods and other rapid deployment is likewise about making their strikes as Brown Trousering as possible, with the idea that when seeking compliance a single demonstration may be enough to shatter the enemy’s resolve.

You can absolutely assert the necessary authority by simply having More Soldiers than the next civilisation. But to have More Soldiers which are also markedly superior Soldiers to anything a would-be troublemaker is likely to have access to? That is a strong statement of intent, especially if your initial overtures are a preference for Peaceful Compliance. A statement that if you choose The Hard Way, it’s gonna be far, far harder for you than it will be for me.

Consider if a Crusade era fleet arrived in Orbit tomorrow. We are at the current peak of military capability. We, for some reason I’ve never really understood have Nuclear arsenals far in excess of what would cause planet wide extinction…and to quote War of the Worlds? It’d still be bows and arrows against the lightning.

A single Astartes assault? And it’s pretty much done and dusted. Not only would the general population demand peace, but I think even the most loyal and fanatical members of the various armed forces would be thinking twice.

I think you are seriously under estimating the power oy the US Army Soldier's ability to kill/and or break things.

I don't care what space juice that 10' magic space nazi is hoped up on, his pecker don't work, and they die VERY easy to Orks and Bugs.

...what does a Space Marine's genitals have to do with anything?

 morganfreeman wrote:

Vatsetis wrote:

 morganfreeman wrote:

 Mr Nobody wrote:


But this makes things even more jarring. The superior specimen of genetic engineering came before the prototype thunder warriors and was still superior to final that was the space marines. That's a weird line of progression. The emperor got it right the first time and then proceeded to make worse products.

Very inconsistent. Someone needs to work on their lab journal...

Why are spears the most prevalent weapons in human history? Why was "pointy stick" omnipresent on the battlefield on a massive scale even when we had bows, crossbows, cannons, swords (of all types), axes, chain and platemail, and early firearms, all of which were much more dangerous / protective?

All you need to make spears is a tree and a rock, and if you're really desperate you can swap the tree for branches and lose the rock. The simplicity of creating these things, vs the specialized skillset required to create (and maintain) things like swords, bows, and various types of armor is massive. And this is before you get into the actual effectiveness of them. Spears are operable on the premise of "point at the bad dudes and thrust" with the thrust being optional. A group of nobodies can be almost instantly armed (or quickly arm themselves) with no specialized skillset among them, and can then reliably fight to a decent degree with no combat experience.

Custodes are the pinnacle of the art but they are, as has been said, difficult and time consuming to make. They must be crafted by hand with great care and over a long period of time. They're an arbalest or some other highly effective, very technical, and difficult to produce weapon. Meanwhile Thunder Warriors (and later Astartes) are spears. While not as effective as the more advanced weaponry they can be cranked out with ease, en mass, and still be quite effective. They're not as individually powerful as the high-tech counter part, but one professional soldier with an arbalest isn't going to win against fifty yokels with sharpened sticks.

Well laid analogy.

Unfortunetly you are factually wrong on almost all details.

Also if Space Marines are "mass produced" why are they so few in the setting? ... In 40k we have the cannonical 1 million (which is riculously tiny on the IOM scale)... Even if the real number is 3 times higher its still less than a single sorotitas order... And probably there are more Knights than tactical/intercessor astartes.

Even if in 30k we have 10 times more marines in the legions we are talking of a negible number of troops.

90 or 99% of the astartes firepower is in their navies... The actual military significance of the supermen is irrelevant.

I'm factually right on every detail. You're just trying to move the goal posts.

I'm not here arguing the effectiveness of things.The Imperial Guard could wipe out every space marine chapter if they so chose and they could do it without weapons; just throw literally trillions of bodies at thousands of marines and very literally drown them in blood / crush them by weight of corpses. The guard are the stick to the space marines arbalest.

But we're not talking guards vs marines.

Marines are the stick to the custards arbalest. Quick and easy to make with easy-to source parts (marines grow the parts to make more marines). This is factually true. And it explains why the Thunder Warriors, and shortly after the Space Marines, were made despite the "perfect" custodes being on the table. Custodes are extremely difficult and slow to make, and due to that you only need a few of them for specialized tasks and specific pressure points; then you pump out a bunch of spears to let the easily armed chaff do the real leg work.

Whether or not super soldiers were required at all is an entirely different (and utterly pointless) argument. The Emperor thought they were so he made them. Now we've got marines and they're here to stay, the only reason to say they shouldn't be here is to get your jollies from Well Ackchyually-ing people on the interwebs.

You are "factually right" only if someone accepts the sophistic nature of your statement.

I dont.

Defining Spears as a Pointy stick is a complete fallacy.... And ussing spearmen effectively in a military setting needs proper training... Peasant militia spearmen were decimated during almost 500 years in western europe by heavy cavalry until proper infantry tactics and training were introduce during the late middle ages.

And since producing a single astartes requires many resources (100 candidates, old tech, etc) it is not a mass produce AK, its stil a boutique car/ weapon even if you have the extra rare golden version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Every writer makes up new SM legions, like it's a thing. The Snakes of Ithaca? The Reclaimers? The Redeemers? Whatever the "deathwatch-esque" chapter was in Inquistor:Martyr. The Storm Watchers or something.

Anyway, there is literally zero limit on how many Space Marines exist, because I can create one out of thin air right now. The Fluff Stompers of Fartslovokia, a chapter that favors kicking their opponents to death. They primarily use jump packs, and do lui-kang kicks across entire battlefields. They are a decendent of their founders, the Knights of Fluff, which are decended through many successors, from the original Imperial Fists Legion. Like, 12th cousin, twice re-founded.

Point is, we can't make the logical statement: "Space Marines aren't mass-produced". All we know for 100% certain is there is a REALLY SPECIAL Old book, which HARDLY ANYONE GOES BY, that has rules. Rules with which the writer has since decided don't actually matter.

So who is to honestly state how many Space Marines exist? The only possible answer is: "As many as GW wants". Everything else is head cannon.

Well under your premise, numbers means nothing in the 30k/40k setting since any author or fan can create new legions, ork waaghs, craftworlds, etc

Therefore we must assume every race in 40k has achieve post scarcity luxury communism and they only fight each other for sport.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I think you are seriously under estimating the power oy the US Army Soldier's ability to kill/and or break things.

I don't care what space juice that 10' magic space nazi is hoped up on, his pecker don't work, and they die VERY easy to Orks and Bugs.

I’m….really not. In fact I took pains to suggest the sheer level of Marine inflicted ROFLstomping that would occur paints no military as incompetent. Just…hopelessly outclassed.

For a start, we have zero known counters to orbital bombardment, that thing Astartes fleets specialise in. We have no known effective counters to Drop Pod landings. As noted we do have Nukes….but no known effective way to get them up to orbit, or known way to prevent them being intercepted by point defences Imperial ships are known to have. Even if some get through, there’s no guarantee they’d be enough to get through Void Shields.

Marines don’t tend to seek out stand up fights. Their tactics are about instant command decapitation. Stuff like The Houses of Parliament, Whitehall, MI5, White House, Pentagon, Kremlin? All super easy to blat from orbit. See our satellites? We’ve no way to defend them, because we’ve no known fighter craft capable of near-space flight, let alone combat.

Even if it’s ground side combat? Appreciate just how utterly ridiculous Astartes are. Each is in essence a walking tank. The humble Legion Tactical Squad would be a terrifying encounter. Your firepower has seemingly no effect. They just keep coming. If heavier calibre fire drives one to the ground? His mates have the skills and tools to take out that weapon, and there’s a solid chance the one hit is just going to get back on his feet.

They don’t show any kind of restraint. If you stand in opposition, they’re going to kill you. And by intent of design, your death is going to be messy. And thanks to their understanding of war, it’s gonna be televised. Each and every Marine has the capability to at least record combat.

Oh your President/King/Prime Minister/Dear Leader has run off to a bunker? Not a problem. Once found, they can teleport Terminators in, and that’s them so done it’s not even funny.

Does Earth have powerful and capable militaries? Yes. Yes we do. But if The Imperium came a-knocking, the term asymmetric warfare just doesn’t even touch the sides. Not even close.

Pretty much every faction in the 30k setting could obliterate 2022 earth from orbit... Even the Kroots... That dosent make the poster boys special.