Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

While I'll happily acknowledge the show was flawed, a significant portion of the fan base did whip themselves up into such a froth over the show, from quite early on in its lifetime, that even if it had unequivocally stuck the landing by any reasonable measure there'd still be people moaning about it.

It feels to me that as a lifetime fan of the genre across all sorts of media, I naturally tempered my expectations, and consequently wasn't massively disappointed by the end. It was rushed, no question, but I felt the majority of the pieces ended up on the right square of the board.

Conversely, Thrones seems to have attracted a lot of fans that wouldn't normally become involved in the sort of property that creates "fandoms" and those people especially let their expectations soar completely unchecked, made no allowance that those expectations may not be met, or that things may not turn out the way they wanted/expected. When things panned out as they did, it was those people especially that came crashing down hard, and the vibrations from that impact are still being felt.

It'll be interesting, should HOTD take off in a similar way, given we fundamentally know the ending already, how the fandom reacts this time around.

For the most part I felt like the right events happened in the least interesting way possible.

I think it's kinda weird how they played off the c-section as being some mysterious little known procedure that the queen didn't know about, nor that they told her about. Just seems weird and gave an odd vibe. Like they tried to add extra drama to a scene that already would have had enough. Forcing it against her will(?) and without her knowledge, it was just off and seemed unnatural for how this stuff would go under normal circumstances. A society at this level of knowledge would have been doing c-sections for a long time and they would be, if not commonplace, at least known about. Just added a creepy vibe to the whole thing that just seemed out of place.

Otherwise I liked the rest of it very much.

 AduroT wrote:

 Gert wrote:
It was alright. The biggest thing for me is just that I'll never be able to get over Matt Smith as the Doctor and seeing him say some naughty words is just extra funny because of that.

I saw him and was all like I know this actor! Who is it… Oh! The Doctor! It’s David Tennant!

Yeah, it is interesting to see him in a very different role. I think he's doing a good job though.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I think it's kinda weird how they played off the c-section as being some mysterious little known procedure that the queen didn't know about, nor that they told her about. Just seems weird and gave an odd vibe. Like they tried to add extra drama to a scene that already would have had enough. Forcing it against her will(?) and without her knowledge, it was just off and seemed unnatural for how this stuff would go under normal circumstances. A society at this level of knowledge would have been doing c-sections for a long time and they would be, if not commonplace, at least known about. Just added a creepy vibe to the whole thing that just seemed out of place.

Otherwise I liked the rest of it very much.

As someone who deeply disliked Season 7 and 8......

I thought it was more that she was heavily dosed on Opium and so did not realise what was happening at first - historically it usually meant death so was a last resort as here.

I enjoyed the first episode as well - I read and enjoyed Fire and Blood - just a little disapointed we did not have the invasion era to begin with.....

Maybe, but I don't think so. They were quite explicit they gave her as much as was safe, so I doubt she was in a stupor. Yes, it was definitely a last resort historically, but given her difficult pregnancy you would think they would have gone it with it as an option and all prediscussed beforehand.

Like I said, I think they added some creepy vibes that really weren't needed. IDK for sure if it was on purpose, but it was definitely off.

2nd episode in the books! Not much going down, but Rhaenyra’s enterance was pretty baller and the stage is set for what looks to be a big battle next week.

I have a feeling that until we get to the grown up actresses of Rhaenyra and Allicent the time jumps are going to be pretty jarring.

We do know that both Alicent and Rheanyra have other actors lined up

I have a feeling this will be far better than the LOTR show

This was alright - far better than anticipated

Absolutely loved ep2. I can't believe how well done it is, found myself shouting at the tv when the credits rolled because I just wanted more. The acting and writing are absolutely top notch.

I'm still meh. It's not bad and Rheanyra is growing on me as a likable character but she's the only one so far.

It's got 1 more episode to grab me.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Maybe, but I don't think so. They were quite explicit they gave her as much as was safe, so I doubt she was in a stupor. Yes, it was definitely a last resort historically, but given her difficult pregnancy you would think they would have gone it with it as an option and all prediscussed beforehand.

Like I said, I think they added some creepy vibes that really weren't needed. IDK for sure if it was on purpose, but it was definitely off.

Its a interesting point and would need to be quite wide ranging - ie could they have saved his wife or only the baby (who died anyway) or were they both doomed. I am not sure if this sort of discussion was had historically? The king is not best at making the hard choices....so he may have not wanted to talk about it....

Also I wonder if (as the Queen says) would hot baths been helpful - Targaryians are not quite human.

There really isn't any reason a medieval society can't successfully perform c-sections without killing the mother, at least not any riskier than any other surgery. Its limited more by their knowledge than lack of capability or technology. And I get the impression that they are somewhat more advanced at least medically than the late medieval era.

And sure, maybe the King wouldn't have been interested in such a discussion, but surely the Queen would have been worthy of having a discussion with.

Regarding episode 2, it was pretty great.

In many medieval societies an heir would be seen as more valuable than a Queen (unless it was a rare love match

so the healers may well have been primed to try for that rather than be caught in a position of being ordered by the Queen not to

The setup is better in this episode.
I've not read F&B but I'm liking how at least Viserys isn't too interested in shacking up with kids as much as certain characters in GoT were.

 Gert wrote:
The setup is better in this episode.
I've not read F&B but I'm liking how at least Viserys isn't too interested in shacking up with kids as much as certain characters in GoT were.

Yes, because shacking up with the 14yo is way better than the 12yo......

Considering Alicent Hightower is 21 at the beginning of the series according to the ASoIaF wiki and Viserys is opposed to marrying the Valeyrion child, I'd say it's doing well so far. The only issue is they don't make it explicitly clear how old Alicent is in the show but it certainly is a departure from the norm.

For the sake of splitting hairs, didn't they say she was 15? I'm in no way condoning that behaviour in real life, but in the context of the show, there's likely a significant biological difference between the two.

I also think there's a deliberate ambiguity at play as to how much she likes Viserys and how much is her just doing what her father has told her, but she's at least projecting a certain level of maturity which, from Viserys' point of view, probably allows him to justify his actions to himself.

I think they've changed her age to same age as Rhaenera. So 18-20ish.

In the book she is like 25(?) and Rhaenera is 8 when the queen dies. They've made them roughly the same age to simplify things, and I guess make their eventual feud more interesting as they used to be friends. Either way, she is definitely more age appropriate for Viserys.

Honestly the only weird thing about the age of Rhaenera and Allicent in the show is that they're somehow not already married off. And book Allicent should have definitely already been married.

In Deep Geek's video on this was pretty good. While both Allicent and the Valeyrion girl are good matches politically, Allicent is at least someone he knows and gets along with. As opposed to the mostly stranger of a 12 year old.

And if Heirs are the main goal, Allicent is the better choice. She's not too young and isn't inbred.

 Grey Templar wrote:
There really isn't any reason a medieval society can't successfully perform c-sections without killing the mother, at least not any riskier than any other surgery. Its limited more by their knowledge than lack of capability or technology. And I get the impression that they are somewhat more advanced at least medically than the late medieval era.

And sure, maybe the King wouldn't have been interested in such a discussion, but surely the Queen would have been worthy of having a discussion with.

Regarding episode 2, it was pretty great.

Whoa, there's multiple major arteries of the body around that area, add in that she was not under anaesthetic... It wouldn't have took much to hit one of those, and the chance of infection afterwords would have been through the roof. I'd say there are many reasons it would not succeed, not impossible but highly unlikely.

Just so it's clear, a 35-year-old king marrying the clearly coached 18-20-year-old daughter of a high-ranking lord is still very weird. Just not as offputting as GoT was at the beginning (the books especially).

 Gert wrote:
Just so it's clear, a 35-year-old king marrying the clearly coached 18-20-year-old daughter of a high-ranking lord is still very weird. Just not as offputting as GoT was at the beginning (the books especially).

It's weird for modern day. It would not have been weird in prior times. Marrying a 12 year old would have been weird even in medieval times. It did happen, but it would have been still offputting. So I think that was portrayed perfectly.

Allicent is an adult by any standard, in the show and the book, so while there is a definite age gap it is not really super weird. This isn't Walder Frey

Yes, she's being coached to do it. And I think he's clever enough to know it. But at the same time they get along genuinely well, so I don't think it is weird considering the circumstances. If anything, the age difference is quite normal for the setting. Women of Viserys's age are all either going to be already married or widows, so his options are mostly going to be 18-20 year olds. Anybody older is going to be married or otherwise ineligible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
There really isn't any reason a medieval society can't successfully perform c-sections without killing the mother, at least not any riskier than any other surgery. Its limited more by their knowledge than lack of capability or technology. And I get the impression that they are somewhat more advanced at least medically than the late medieval era.

And sure, maybe the King wouldn't have been interested in such a discussion, but surely the Queen would have been worthy of having a discussion with.

Regarding episode 2, it was pretty great.

Whoa, there's multiple major arteries of the body around that area, add in that she was not under anaesthetic... It wouldn't have took much to hit one of those, and the chance of infection afterwords would have been through the roof. I'd say there are many reasons it would not succeed, not impossible but highly unlikely.

Of course it is still very dangerous, but not more dangerous than any other surgery at the time. So idk, maybe 15-20% chance of surviving.

Watched second episode and seems to be rattling along nicely and they even managed a epsiode without a brothel etc scene so step (forward?) from GOT

On historical marriages I think people forget how often people died and their other half's remarried, it would have been quite often a complicated extended family!

I liked that they did confirm the difference between Betrothal, Marriage and Consumation. 12 years old would have been very young and risks the girls/babies life if she did get pregnant. Edward I and Eleanor his queen were a devoted love match and lost their first child due to consumating too young....she later tried to ensure her daughters would wait a bit longer....

The King could have actually used this to get out of the Valerion marriage - he needs to be making a new hier now, not in few years.....its a legit reason and reduces possible friction a bit.

Pretty awesome episode. Politicking, great dialogue and topped off with a nice action scene.

Not sold on the title sequence, as it seems too convoluted. There had to have been better visual effects to play out the Targaryen history.

Yeah, pretty good. Though I should say Daemon is risking greyscale just a bit there...

Wash your hands bro.

I'm a little more lukewarm on this episode and I don't know if it's the episode's fault or if I'm just tired from watching people bicker back and forth on the internet over Rings of Power.

I'll watch it again and see how I feel.

At the moment though, I'm wondering how much longer are we going to have these time skips? Seems like the next episode takes place at least a year later, and I hope we settle down on a specific time period at some point because...

Well, we need to remember that she is only 17. She lost her mother and now very soon after her dad is married to her best/only friend. I will say the deterioration of her friendship with Alicent could have been better justified, it seemed a little handwaived. We could have used a scene after the announcement where they actually work through the issue and have a falling out.

She's also feeling a little trapped. She should be the most carefree person, she's a dragon rider and the heir to the throne, but she keeps getting pressured to do things and her dad has left her for someone else.

We are probably going to have a couple more time skips though. Nothing kicks off till little Aegon is an adult, so we've got a lot of ground to cover.

I presume that Alicent and Rhaenyra are the same age. That makes Alicent 15 when she married the king, because as of episode 3, Rhaenyra is 17 . And yes that is better than the king marrying a frickin' 12 year old. And I believe we have one more episode with one of the actresses, and two more with another, before they switch to their older versions.

Anyway, as someone who was 'Meh' on the idea of more GoT, I have to say that I am 100% in with this show. I just hope they stick to the story as it's written (you can cut out a few of the offspring, as Rhaenyra has something like 6 kids, and I doubt the story needs all of them), then it should be great. Certainly better than the corpse-wearing fanfiction we're getting from the other big-budget fantasy show that's also out at the moment.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Battlestar Galactica.

That show as never in the cultural zeitgeist.

GoT was a worldwide phenomena, and, it seems, now is again.

 Azreal13 wrote:
It'll be interesting, should HOTD take off in a similar way, given we fundamentally know the ending already, how the fandom reacts this time around.

I can already hear the screeching should they follow the story and go through with the part where one particular character is fed to a dragon.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Battlestar Galactica.

That show as never in the cultural zeitgeist.

GoT was a worldwide phenomena, and, it seems, now is again.

Honestly yeah, it wasn't even close - but that was the first thing that came to mind.

It certainly sounded like it was going to echo BSG, the way people professed their total lack of interest in it (and the total lack of interest Caprica got).

But given that we've gone from popular show with big numbers on its series finale to a new spinnoff show with big numbers and seemingly booming popularity, can it be said to GoT actually dropped off at all? Or did we just go from super hot to super cold back to super hot again?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grey Templar wrote:
We are probably going to have a couple more time skips though. Nothing kicks off till little Aegon is an adult, so we've got a lot of ground to cover.

Wait, so we've been in prologue mode all three episodes so far?

 Captain Joystick wrote:
But given that we've gone from popular show with big numbers on its series finale to a new spinnoff show with big numbers and seemingly booming popularity, can it be said to GoT actually dropped off at all? Or did we just go from super hot to super cold back to super hot again?

After the finale in Season 8, the show just vanished. There was the talk about the episode, and then it was just gone. So gone in fact that I'm surprised they bothered spending this much money on spin-offs, and I was worried that the reaction to the finale would condemn this show to a very early grave.

I'm glad I was wrong.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Wait, so we've been in prologue mode all three episodes so far?

The Dance of Dragons is a multi-generational Targaryen civil war. Other than the older members of the cast that we started with, many of the cast have 2, sometimes even 3 actors set to play them as they grow older. Aegon II, who turned 2 years old in this most recent episode, is one of the more significant characters in the story. We have to get to him being old enough to talk, let alone be a new potential king.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
It'll be interesting, should HOTD take off in a similar way, given we fundamentally know the ending already, how the fandom reacts this time around.

I can already hear the screeching should they follow the story and go through with the part where one particular character is fed to a dragon.

It's totally on-brand for GoT so I don't think it'll offend anyone.