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This is probably explained somewhere. Do the necrons not have records of necrontyr genetic code? We know that some 'crons are interested in ressurrecting the species and transferring back into flesh bodies. It seems like a species with their level of technology probably wrote down the necrontyr genetic code on a computer somewhere once upon a time. Heck, it even sees likely that a species obsessed with life extension would probably have spent a lot of time doing research involving that genetic information. So even if the Silent King had as many traces of genetic material and information scoured as possible, even none of the necron tombs contain a corpse in a stasis field, even if most computers containing genetic info were intentionally wiped, it seems like there would probably be an ancient necron email floating around on an abandoned server somewhere that contains necorntyr genetic info as a file attachment or something.

So uh. Seems like that kind of information should be obtainable and that, consequently, building modern necrontyr in test tubes should be a thing?

Seemingly not, no.

The regrets over bio-transference are the reserve of The Silent King, and those below him. The whole purpose of it was to free them from the frailties of their flesh, and I don’t get the feeling there was any particular interest at that time of it being a two-way street.

We don’t really know how long the war against the Old Ones went on for, but it wasn’t really until that was over or at least looking like a foregone conclusion that the Buyer’s Remorse kicked in.

If as my memory is insisting (but I admittedly can’t cite) that war took Millenia (given the Old Ones were able to engender entire species to fight for them, that does seem likely), then any physical remains would’ve long turned to dust, and without exceptionally careful storage, so would any genebanks.

There’s also at least some chance the Necrontyr had turned to cloning at some point as a potential solution to their overall genetic predicament. But, either they couldn’t figure a way to pass over the personality, or it just didn’t work out as they hoped, and so it was abandoned as a technology and potentially forgotten about. Of course there are other possibilities there, so my use of “either” is erroneous.

If I were writing the lore that's what Tau would be.

I suppose there is a chance some enclave, and not necessarily a small one, managed to escape bio-transference entirely.

However, given the millions of years between then and now? Simple genetic drift could well have rendered them completely unrecognisable. I mean, the best science knowledge available shows Birds to be the descendants of Dinosaurs. And that’s the sort of timescales we’re talking about here. So even if such an enclave then survived The War In Heaven and Eldar reprisals once the Necrons went into hibernation? They’re just not going to be the same species anymore. Not even close.

I mean, let’s look at the human family tree as we can best prove it to date.

Hi, Kid. I’m yer Paw.



That little bugger lived around 66-68 million years ago. And is believed to the oldest example of a mammalian ancestor. Whether it specifically is an ancestor of ours, ask someone suitably qualified.

But it’ll give you some idea of just how different species can become over such a truly staggering timescale. The sort of timescale us humans can barely conceive.

The Necrons had a working time machine which allowed them to travel back to pre-biotransference (Devourer).
They just didn't, for some reason, and then it broke, so IDK?

They also have a whole subset of Crypteks who specialise in the manipulation of time.

I so miss the times before Necron background was reduced to this.

Probably because winning the war in heaven is still a necessity. A problem solved, and one no-one is in any need or rush to try to solve all over again.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Necrons had a working time machine which allowed them to travel back to pre-biotransference (Devourer).
They just didn't, for some reason, and then it broke, so IDK?

They also have a whole subset of Crypteks who specialise in the manipulation of time.

I so miss the times before Necron background was reduced to this.

TBF, jumping back in time to before the Great Sleep is probably asking a bit much of the chronomancers. In The Infinite and the Divine, we get to see Orikan jump back in time a few seconds (minutes?). Things start getting glitchy fast. So it seems like even chronomancers have their limits when it comes to full on time travel. This is, presumably, the same reason a chronomancer doesn't just rewind time whenever his boss loses a game of 40k.

Necrons also have kit like the Celestial Orrery, a weapon of frankly terrifying potential. Yet, we know they’re incredibly cautious about using it.

Even as Wyldhunt pointed out, Orikan is cautious about using his mastery of Chronomancy, limiting it to tweaking things, rather than wholesale do-overs. The difference between sliding back a second or too to not step on that twig, rather than sliding back hours or days to plan an entire new route.

So we can safely say they have a decent level of wisdom. Bio-transference sucked, but…

1) It was necessary to win the war in heaven
2) That part of the plan worked
3) They’re at least immortal now, so whilst it would be nice if they could reverse bio-transference tomorrow, they’ve a completely different view on time to everyone else.
4) Being stuck in an unfeeling metal body is still preferable to a) being stuck in their rubbish meatsuits, doomed to extinction and b) losing the war in heaven, which would’ve doomed them to extinction.

One can even argue with a certain short sighted, you’ve not really thought this through, have you, approach to Bio-transference in the first place, they’re now super cautious not to make things worse in reversing it, by not taking the time (that one thing they definitely have) to ensure they’ve worked out all the angles this time around.

Chronomancy is a delicate art.
Manipulating events so a tank loses its tread at a vital moment or a different judge is assigned to your trial is like using a scalpel or knife to cut the fabric of space-time.
Going back and stopping the Biotransference or War in Heaven is smashing the fabric of space-time open with a jackhammer, filling it with dynamite and then blowing up the dynamite.
Plus the Chronomancers definitely have rules and/or time police to stop that sort of thing.

Just in case it was unclear, my initial post was regarding 40k era necrons having access to necrontyr genetic information and thus being able to make clones in the 41st millenium. Not that I'm opposed to the discussion of chronomancy!

 Lord Damocles wrote:
The Necrons had a working time machine which allowed them to travel back to pre-biotransference (Devourer).
They just didn't, for some reason, and then it broke, so IDK?

They also have a whole subset of Crypteks who specialise in the manipulation of time.

I so miss the times before Necron background was reduced to this.

What the heck? Does the Warhammer galaxy operate on Gilligan’s Island principles?

Is Devourer a novel or a codex or what?

The thing is, the Necrons very much fall into the "Just because we have the big doom button, doesn't mean we're going to press it" territory. The Celestial Orrery mentioned earlier, for example, is a holographic map of every single star in the Milky Way, and any time the light from a holographic star is dimmed, its real counterpart goes supernova. The Dynasty that owns the Orrery knows that just popping stars willy-nilly is an intensely stupid thing to do and only causes their destruction if absolutely necessary or as part of a plan to "prune" the galaxy.
A lot of the species' advancements came during their time as biological entities when knowledge was the only way to preserve any form of self during their very short lives. By creating objects like the Orrery or time manipulation devices, these scientists would live on in the species' legends forever. It just so happened that they became the Necrons and lived forever anyway.

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Just in case it was unclear, my initial post was regarding 40k era necrons having access to necrontyr genetic information and thus being able to make clones in the 41st millenium. Not that I'm opposed to the discussion of chronomancy!

It does seem unlikely. The desire to undo bio-transference came long after the deed was done. So even if some genetic samples were kept to one side, with the entire newly forged Necron race fully committed to the war effort, I can’t see anyone taking the time to ensure any such stock was preserved at all.

From what I’ve seen I got the impression that Nectontyr were pretty similar to humans.

It would be a nice if necrons kidnapping scores of humans to experiment with biotransference was part of the story of why they are such a threat to the imperium, they want to steal our bodies

Another consideration is that Necrons want to undo the Biotransferance for themselves. They've a level of technology where they could just name any race the new Necrons and adjust their genetic code to suit their fancies. But they'd still be in their cold metallic shells.

Undoing it doesn't mean just creating more living Necrons, it means restoring those who are now machine, back to their organic bodies. At the very least for the upper ranks who have retained memories and sanity, if not for their entire race (even if the vast majority would likely go insane as a result).


We also have to consider that within the setting the "soul" is a tangible thing that can be manipulated. Making a new organic body is one thing, but moving the soul or whatever it anchors too across from machine to body is hard; especially when the Necrons lost their souls or a greater part of their souls, to the C'Tan.

There are what are implied to be fleshy Necrontyr corpses in Mephiston: Revenant Crusade. Why they'd still be around millions of years post bioteansference isn't clear. They get destroyed.

There's also the Diadem of Transference from the Warhammer Adventures series which seems to be able to transfer consciousnesses between bodies. But they never used that either it seems, and then they lost it *shrug*

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Just in case it was unclear, my initial post was regarding 40k era necrons having access to necrontyr genetic information and thus being able to make clones in the 41st millenium. Not that I'm opposed to the discussion of chronomancy!

It does seem unlikely. The desire to undo bio-transference came long after the deed was done. So even if some genetic samples were kept to one side, with the entire newly forged Necron race fully committed to the war effort, I can’t see anyone taking the time to ensure any such stock was preserved at all.

I could've sworn that one of the short stories in Devourer made a mention of corpses preserved in stasis fields when it was going over all the various ways past 'crons had been preserved in the tombs. But I'd have to go digging through boxes to find the book. But given their obsession with death and preservation, it seems likely that someone has a semi-fresh corpse laying around in their tombs somewhere.

Overread wrote:Another consideration is that Necrons want to undo the Biotransferance for themselves. They've a level of technology where they could just name any race the new Necrons and adjust their genetic code to suit their fancies. But they'd still be in their cold metallic shells.

Undoing it doesn't mean just creating more living Necrons, it means restoring those who are now machine, back to their organic bodies. At the very least for the upper ranks who have retained memories and sanity, if not for their entire race (even if the vast majority would likely go insane as a result).


We also have to consider that within the setting the "soul" is a tangible thing that can be manipulated. Making a new organic body is one thing, but moving the soul or whatever it anchors too across from machine to body is hard; especially when the Necrons lost their souls or a greater part of their souls, to the C'Tan.

Sure. I agree with all that. It still seems like they'd want to have some fresh and fleshy necrontyr running around the galaxy though. Partly to flip the bird to the C'Tan, partly as a way to continue their legacy. In the BL novels, the 'crons seem very aware that they are, however slowly, losing warriors and sane minds and that neither can really be replaced.

 Wyldhunt wrote:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Wyldhunt wrote:
Just in case it was unclear, my initial post was regarding 40k era necrons having access to necrontyr genetic information and thus being able to make clones in the 41st millenium. Not that I'm opposed to the discussion of chronomancy!

It does seem unlikely. The desire to undo bio-transference came long after the deed was done. So even if some genetic samples were kept to one side, with the entire newly forged Necron race fully committed to the war effort, I can’t see anyone taking the time to ensure any such stock was preserved at all.

I could've sworn that one of the short stories in Devourer made a mention of corpses preserved in stasis fields when it was going over all the various ways past 'crons had been preserved in the tombs. But I'd have to go digging through boxes to find the book. But given their obsession with death and preservation, it seems likely that someone has a semi-fresh corpse laying around in their tombs somewhere.

Overread wrote:Another consideration is that Necrons want to undo the Biotransferance for themselves. They've a level of technology where they could just name any race the new Necrons and adjust their genetic code to suit their fancies. But they'd still be in their cold metallic shells.

Undoing it doesn't mean just creating more living Necrons, it means restoring those who are now machine, back to their organic bodies. At the very least for the upper ranks who have retained memories and sanity, if not for their entire race (even if the vast majority would likely go insane as a result).


We also have to consider that within the setting the "soul" is a tangible thing that can be manipulated. Making a new organic body is one thing, but moving the soul or whatever it anchors too across from machine to body is hard; especially when the Necrons lost their souls or a greater part of their souls, to the C'Tan.

Sure. I agree with all that. It still seems like they'd want to have some fresh and fleshy necrontyr running around the galaxy though. Partly to flip the bird to the C'Tan, partly as a way to continue their legacy. In the BL novels, the 'crons seem very aware that they are, however slowly, losing warriors and sane minds and that neither can really be replaced.

I guess one way to think of it is that whilst they are aware of the vast passing of time, because they are machine now time has lost some of its meaning for them. So in a sense whilst its been ages its also been no time at all since the transference. So the idea of moving forward and making a new race of organics doesn't appeal or strike them because they are still wanting to go back to yesterday when they had their flesh.

 Overread wrote:

I guess one way to think of it is that whilst they are aware of the vast passing of time, because they are machine now time has lost some of its meaning for them. So in a sense whilst its been ages its also been no time at all since the transference. So the idea of moving forward and making a new race of organics doesn't appeal or strike them because they are still wanting to go back to yesterday when they had their flesh.

I like that take. Even if they're painfully aware of how long they've been awake since the Great Sleep, many of them might basically be stuck in the past.

Also worth noting that their original genome is probably not worth using.

The war in heaven started because the necrontyr wanted the secret to immortality but the old ones told them to kick rocks. They were a massive interstellar empire that’d mastered insane tech like time manipulation and using holograms to snuff stars, basically god-tier. And yet they were prone to short lives of cancerous tumor ridden pain due to the planet they first came from. The technology crossed with the problem implies that the damage to their genome was so complete that it couldn’t be removed. Less being a life form having cancer, more being a life form literally made of cancer.

For that reason it’s likely that there’s usable records (or a way to recreate them), but no one cares because it’s pointless to reverse bio-transference just to become Cancer Man.

 morganfreeman wrote:
Also worth noting that their original genome is probably not worth using.

The war in heaven started because the necrontyr wanted the secret to immortality but the old ones told them to kick rocks. They were a massive interstellar empire that’d mastered insane tech like time manipulation and using holograms to snuff stars, basically god-tier. And yet they were prone to short lives of cancerous tumor ridden pain due to the planet they first came from. The technology crossed with the problem implies that the damage to their genome was so complete that it couldn’t be removed. Less being a life form having cancer, more being a life form literally made of cancer.

For that reason it’s likely that there’s usable records (or a way to recreate them), but no one cares because it’s pointless to reverse bio-transference just to become Cancer Man.

That's a good point and dovetails well with the speciesism we see them display. Every other species is "beneath" them, so they aren't interested in trying to transfer into a body that isn't necrontyr in nature, but an authentic necrontyr body would bring them face to face with their fear of death and aversion to the less pleasant aspects of biological existence. Although it still seems like it should be within their means to create something aesthetically similar enough to a necrontyr to satiate their speciesism while also not being made of cancer. Or, given a reliable enough form of mind transferrance, I guess they could just hop into a new body every day to avoid experiencing most of the effects of the tumors.

There’s still the fundamental question of defining a short life-span, and being prone to disease.

Part the Old One’s myth is they were functionally immortal, and immune to disease.

So by that standard, anything less is by definition short lived and prone to disease, no?

For all we know, a Necrontyr’s life could be measured in centuries, decades or years. Likely not Millenia though, but that’s still a possibility,

If it is at the longer compared to humanity end of the spectrum, that’s another problem for biotransference,

Another thing we have to consider is the souls aspect. Because souls are very much a tangible thing in the setting that can be manipulated and consumed and more we have to wonder about that too.

Creating authentic new or cloned Necrontyr is nothing if they are soul-less as the Necrons supposedly are after the C'Tan feasted upon them.
Potentially the Necrons first need to crack the shell on how to gain new souls, or create new ones or somehow separate the souls that they once had from the C'Tan. Basically how they can restore themselves in mind, body and spirit all in one go. Not bits of it but the whole package deal.


We also have to consider that perhaps one issue with the original Necrontyr wasn't just their bodies. Perhaps there was some perversion/damage/weakness/issue with their very souls. Something that manifested and influenced their physical bodies. Something that the Old Ones could not change nor fix. Perhaps a Necrontyr soul within any organic body would degrade and pollute and destroy itself. Maybe that's why the Old Ones turned them away; because to "fix" them is fundamentally impossible because its not just a case of biology.

If the Necrontyr and latterly Necrons even understand the concept of a soul. Given they’re reputed to have been a non-psychic species (which is believed to be an attribute engineered by the Old Ones), they may very well have no such concept.

I think they do have a concept of them. They've been around long enough to know how demons work and how other races work. I've also got a recollection that at least the King understands what his people lost in the transference and that it wasn't just their bodies. Their loss of souls is part of why so many of their people are robotic in nature. It's not just that their bodies are inferior; its the loss of a part of themselves that the C'Tan consumed during the transference process.

Even if they weren't psychic they still had souls in the setting; could still lose them and at the very least they've seen enough of demons and the eldar to work out how souls work.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There’s still the fundamental question of defining a short life-span, and being prone to disease.

Part the Old One’s myth is they were functionally immortal, and immune to disease.

So by that standard, anything less is by definition short lived and prone to disease, no?

For all we know, a Necrontyr’s life could be measured in centuries, decades or years. Likely not Millenia though, but that’s still a possibility,

If it is at the longer compared to humanity end of the spectrum, that’s another problem for biotransference,

IIRC Necrontyr are explicitly stated to live short and painful lives due to all the cancerous gak going on with them. I'm pretty sure there's a novel where one of them is reflecting on their past mortal life, and they were already massively tumorous at a fairly young age (in their 20s) while they were a little far along for their age, it was pretty much the norm and they didn't expect to live much longer.

I'm not going to pretend I have any of the material for this on hand; I own a grand total of 0 Necron codex' (of any edition) and have never read a 40k novel... Nor do I bloody plan to.

I always understood the C’Tan to eat the biochemical energy or mindstate of their victims, described poetically as the soul, rather than actually eating the warp essence part of their victims embedded in the warp, the one aspect of the setting anathema to the C’Tan.

Also, the Necrontyr are the only species we know were not created by the Old Ones, so they are least likely to have a soul in the warp sense.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I always understood the C’Tan to eat the biochemical energy or mindstate of their victims, described poetically as the soul, rather than actually eating the warp essence part of their victims embedded in the warp, the one aspect of the setting anathema to the C’Tan.

Also, the Necrontyr are the only species we know were not created by the Old Ones, so they are least likely to have a soul in the warp sense.

Tyranids, Tau, Kroot, Vespids, Hrud, Enslavers (probably), and any number of races which are not in playable armies weren't created by the Old Ones.

The Hrud were definitely created by the old ones. The Kroot and Vespids, mayyybe not, but considering humanity was canonically created by the Old Ones…60+ million years after the Old Ones officially went extinct…there’s plenty of reason to assume any life in this galaxy that came after the War In Heaven was in some way planted, uplifted or seeded by the Old Ones or their creations. The Tau were created/uplifted by Eldar (Xenology) and maybe the Necrons.

The Tyranids use the warp and mostly exist as a physical vessel for a warp entity, the hive mind. While there is no official word either way, it seems clear to me that the Tyranids either started out as or absorbed the DNA of an Old Ones created species. They might even be an Old One survivor, like Qah but more twisted by time and circumstance.

Xenology is an in universe book written from an Imperial perspective. It can hardly be considered perfect.
The Hive Mind is also not a Warp Entity, its the collective consciousness of the Tyranid race.