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artific3r wrote:
Last weekend my not-even-max-unit of 5 flamers survived a charge from a squad of howling banshees equipped with the current meta loadout (mirrorswords + piercing strikes). Banshees are one of the few autotake units in the Craftworlds book. They only managed to kill two flamers.

8 attacks from the Exarch at S4 D2, plus 3 per Banshee at S4 D1.
Considering Flamers are T4 W3, even with only a 6+ save, you'd only expect to lose one to the Exarch and maybe 2 damage to another, then not even one point of damage per regular Banshee.
Or, put another way, a max squad of 10 Banshees puts out around 11 damage to a squad of Flamers.

ok, so, planning out my khorne deamons force up to 1k.


so far, my list looks like:

Bloodthirster with great axe, warlord (devastating blow), relic (King of blades)

Bloodmaster

2 squads of Bloodletters

3 bloodcrushers

8 Hounds


its basically the combat patrol boxset, with an extra bloodletter and the 'thirster (i've already bought the thirster and extra letters, will get the patrol box at xmas). does that sound like a reasonable force, or am i trying to squash a bloodthrister into too small a points value?

Should work fine.

I'd also pick up a Skull Cannon - and magnetize it so you can use it as either the cannon or throne - for occasional use.

 JNAProductions wrote:

artific3r wrote:
Last weekend my not-even-max-unit of 5 flamers survived a charge from a squad of howling banshees equipped with the current meta loadout (mirrorswords + piercing strikes). Banshees are one of the few autotake units in the Craftworlds book. They only managed to kill two flamers.

8 attacks from the Exarch at S4 D2, plus 3 per Banshee at S4 D1.
Considering Flamers are T4 W3, even with only a 6+ save, you'd only expect to lose one to the Exarch and maybe 2 damage to another, then not even one point of damage per regular Banshee.
Or, put another way, a max squad of 10 Banshees puts out around 11 damage to a squad of Flamers.

Looks like you forgot to account for +1 to wound on the charge and the exarch having 10 attacks - the exarch kills 2 on average then the other 4 kill another one (1.11 wounds each)

 JNAProductions wrote:

artific3r wrote:
Last weekend my not-even-max-unit of 5 flamers survived a charge from a squad of howling banshees equipped with the current meta loadout (mirrorswords + piercing strikes). Banshees are one of the few autotake units in the Craftworlds book. They only managed to kill two flamers.

8 attacks from the Exarch at S4 D2, plus 3 per Banshee at S4 D1.
Considering Flamers are T4 W3, even with only a 6+ save, you'd only expect to lose one to the Exarch and maybe 2 damage to another, then not even one point of damage per regular Banshee.
Or, put another way, a max squad of 10 Banshees puts out around 11 damage to a squad of Flamers.

Banshee Exarch has 10 attacks at that profile (exarch trait grants +1A) but yeah, banshees are not good into flamers. I have no idea why they randomly gave flamers +1W this edition. I assumed the 6+ save meant they would just melt in melee against anything, but I realize now they are surprisingly tough against anti-elite melee since a lot of it is D2, which is just awful against 3W models.

Hey all. 40K newb here coming from Sigmar. I have large-ish Tzeentch and Slaanesh armies in that game and was hoping to use them to indulge my 40Kuriosity.

I don’t have a great grasp on the game yet, so I was wondering if people think Tzeentch + Slaanesh is a reasonable combo for “down at the shop” games.

This is what I’ve roughed out so far, although this isn’t really a list help question so much as a “is the concept worth investigating at all” question. 1k seems to be the most played size at my GW store.

Patrol Detachment, 1k on da nose

HQ
Lord of Change, Exalted, Robe, Boon, Architect
Changecaster (bonus hq slot) Staff
Tormentbringer on Exalted Chariot

Troops
10 Daemonettes x2
10 Blue Horrors

Elite
6 Flamers

 Telamoniades wrote:
Hey all. 40K newb here coming from Sigmar. I have large-ish Tzeentch and Slaanesh armies in that game and was hoping to use them to indulge my 40Kuriosity.

I don’t have a great grasp on the game yet, so I was wondering if people think Tzeentch + Slaanesh is a reasonable combo for “down at the shop” games.

This is what I’ve roughed out so far, although this isn’t really a list help question so much as a “is the concept worth investigating at all” question. 1k seems to be the most played size at my GW store.

Patrol Detachment, 1k on da nose

HQ
Lord of Change, Exalted, Robe, Boon, Architect
Changecaster (bonus hq slot) Staff
Tormentbringer on Exalted Chariot

Troops
10 Daemonettes x2
10 Blue Horrors

Elite
6 Flamers

Should work. Naturally what opponents you play might affect it. But give it spin, see what you think. Tty different mixes week to week.
As you've indicated that you already have sizable forces, you don't really have anything to risk other than time.

At 1k the master mutator might be meaner exalted. Warpstorm can often provide -1 to hit and with robe tough to kill anyway. For warlord trait +1 to psychic might be idea. Also loc has 3 spells to pick.

Flamers would likely be better at 2x3. 3 kills most stuff anyway. 2x3 can delete 2 units.

Odds are you will win more than lose. Might not get much friends with 6 flamers at 1k. Those are so busted i feel bad bringing 3.

Flamers are so good that competitive tsons players are souping them in.

They are so good they could get +10 pts hike and 3x6 would still be pretty much obvious choice for 2k list...

3 of them + LOC basically singlehandedly tabled drukhari in 1k game yesterday in such a lopsided way in the end I could just for lolz charge flamers(they aren't good in melee for the record) and LOC just because it was already decided. I could have just smited the archaon but charged in just to give opponent something to do beside removing models...

d6+3 autohits at S5 -2 is just sick, 3 wounds is pretty good making d2 weapons ineffective and 3+ save vs shooting? Holy. Just make sure opponent doesn't have easy charge something+pile into them or charge them out of LOS and they are never going to dissapoint you.

tneva82 wrote:
They are so good they could get +10 pts hike and 3x6 would still be pretty much obvious choice for 2k list...

Only because the rest of the choices in the list are so bad I think. Seriously, you have the LoC, Be'lakor, Kairos, flamers and...?

At 35 points, they cost more than a CSM Terminator, I don't think they're that good. Against a lot of opponents, yes, they are a serious problem, 30 points is probably about right I suspect.

Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...

tneva82 wrote:
Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...

Do you have an actual response? Or just anecdotal evidence of victory on your local scene?

Even better, if we're using your anecdotal evidence, how is your mono Khorne victory percentage relevant to the cost of Flamers?

Do you think flamers should be more expensive than a CSM Terminator? Would you care to show your work?

tneva82 wrote:
Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...

Yeah but you're a bad player playing against other bad players. Who cares about your games?

Stupid question: do malefic weapons get re rolls?

Exact wording of the rule is

"Unless otherwise specified, malefic weapons are never affected by effects or abilities that allow models to make additional attacks, or abilities that would add to, subtract from, or improve their characteristics in any way"


Which I'm pretty sure means you get rerolls, but just checking

Yes they do, since re-rolls don't change anything about the weapon's profile (number of attacks, strength, AP, or damage characteristic). There aren't that many things that actually interact with malefic weapons, the big ones being -1D and AoC.

tneva82 wrote:
Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...

Mono khorne is the best mono god lol, you're basically playing the #2 best list (possibly #1 now that belakor got nerfed).

I have no be'lakor nor flamers which is what keeps appearing on tournament winning daemons. 3x3 is pretty much minimum you see when you look at tournament doing lists.

And be'lakor didn't exactly get nerfed. As it is it was more often than not used NOT in supreme commander as giving up good warlord trait for junk isn't good trade generally especially as warpstorm effects for different gods are pretty weak. Khorne ones suck(out of my games those have had literally 0 impact from total of 11 uses), tzeentch would require lots of tzeentch casters to use and nurgle and slaanesh one's aren't that hot either. Slaanesh has some use but generally undivided ones are still way more useful.

So Be'lakor didn't exactly get nerfed when the most common way to use it remained untouched...Be'lakor's point isn't warpstorm tables. If you brought him for those then lol you are missing 99.99% of him. He's a) tough b) fast c) hits pretty hard d) is warp locus e) unlocks tzeentch stratagems(one that is in particular useful combined with point d)

Slaanesh also is seen doing good in tournaments. Only nurgle ones are suffering.

If Be'lakor had lost access to god specific stratagems THAT would been nerf worthy of mention.

tneva82 wrote:
I have no be'lakor nor flamers which is what keeps appearing on tournament winning daemons. 3x3 is pretty much minimum you see when you look at tournament doing lists.

Which tournaments? Perhaps a list with some indication of how many players participated?

Because if I recall correctly, Daemons have won maybe 1 tournament of any significance.

However, I'd be happy to have my data updated. They seem to be falling into a gatekeeper role though.

Belakor isnt really tough. In a tournament environment he will likely die T2, maybe even T1. A BT tank with 8 wound cap, 5+ FNP and 5+ regain wounds will last much longer.

 p5freak wrote:
Belakor isnt really tough. In a tournament environment he will likely die T2, maybe even T1. A BT tank with 8 wound cap, 5+ FNP and 5+ regain wounds will last much longer.

Why not both?

A good, well balanced army can knock out that BT by T2 as well.

If you're going to bring big bois, bring multiples.

The main thing we saw with Bel'akor was that there was a split between bringing him the regular HQ slot or Supcom. Now there is zero reason to bring him in the Supcom. If you are brining him, just bring him in the regular HQ slot so you can get a more useful WLT.

That being said, we have seen lists without Bel'akor doing well. The BT + LOC has been seen a few times.

 p5freak wrote:
Belakor isnt really tough. In a tournament environment he will likely die T2, maybe even T1. A BT tank with 8 wound cap, 5+ FNP and 5+ regain wounds will last much longer.

While I agree with you in principle, in practice if you have Belakor+BT tank+LOC your opponent is gonna have a real hard time taking them all down because each one is going to take a significant amount of fire to bring down.

Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.

artific3r wrote:
Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.

A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?

 JNAProductions wrote:

artific3r wrote:
Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.

A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?

With no buffs it does an average of 3 wounds to Marines, or about 30 points worth for a 25 point model. A single shooting phase getting back more than its point cost is good on baseline. All the buffs you can layer onto them even moreso, especially considering they are surprisingly durable, mobile, and have innate deep strike.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

artific3r wrote:
Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.

A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?

With no buffs it does an average of 3 wounds to Marines, or about 30 points worth for a 25 point model. A single shooting phase getting back more than its point cost is good on baseline. All the buffs you can layer onto them even moreso, especially considering they are surprisingly durable, mobile, and have innate deep strike.

1d6+3 S5 AP-2 D1 shots.
13/2 hits (auto-hitting)
26/6 or 13/3 wounds, on the 3+
13/6 failed saves, on the 4+ (thanks to AoC)
That’s just over 2 damage. Not 3.

Hi all! I'm tuning up a list for an upcoming tournament and feel my list is lacking some speed, how are people feeling about flesh hounds/screamers? I'd do fiends but I'm a pure khorne patrol and a tzeentch vanguard to unlock warpstorm so that'd be hard to fit in :(

Ecdain wrote:
Hi all! I'm tuning up a list for an upcoming tournament and feel my list is lacking some speed, how are people feeling about flesh hounds/screamers?

As a pure Khorne player? I love my Khorne dogs. My demons never go to battle without them. They've taken objectives, eaten termies, tied up enemy units screened my backfield.... And I love the current sculpts.

Screamers? Well, the only place I play any Tzeentch demons is in War Cry. And I only own 1 screamer (it's all I need in that game) But I can definitely see some use for them. Mostly grabbing objectives while other demons do the fighting. Current model isn't bad.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

artific3r wrote:
Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.

A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?

With no buffs it does an average of 3 wounds to Marines, or about 30 points worth for a 25 point model. A single shooting phase getting back more than its point cost is good on baseline. All the buffs you can layer onto them even moreso, especially considering they are surprisingly durable, mobile, and have innate deep strike.

1d6+3 S5 AP-2 D1 shots.
13/2 hits (auto-hitting)
26/6 or 13/3 wounds, on the 3+
13/6 failed saves, on the 4+ (thanks to AoC)
That’s just over 2 damage. Not 3.

Easy access to +1S, +2S with Boon of Change, +1 to wound, re-roll 1s to wound, -1T on your target, can deep strike, can teleport, 12" fly move, difficult to shoot, difficult to charge, not even that fragile after being charged since 3W per model.

With all the buffs they're autohitting 40ish shots, wounding T7 on 2s, rerolling ones. Most of the time your target's rolling 30-40 saves at AP2. And when your flamers are done shooting, they aren't even that easy to kill. They will fly/teleport away to wipe another target if your opponent doesn't deal with them. The damage is absurd when you stack buffs on them (and you are going to stack buffs on them because why would you buff anything else), but the thing that takes them over the top is their amazing mobility and durability for their cost. It's 125-150 points for a unit that's tricky to remove and threatens to pick up 2+ units anywhere on the board if not dealt with.