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im sure youre right Cuda, i was being extremely optimistic and hopeful... lol.
you dont know how upset i was last night when i remembered we get our cards tomorrow and today is imperium.

i wonder if theyll go the AoS route and only put points on units while upgrades are free options.

they started it with space marines not long ago so it'll be interesting.

just looking at the warriors we got beat up a little :(

any extra point of toughness is cool but going to a 4+ to hit sucks.

weapons are kinda jacked too.

any other takeaways?

This is true of all factions, but Votann are going to live or die by the points costs. Space marines look really, really good, but the assumption is that their prices are going up, relative to 9th. I would guess Votann goes down relative to 9th. If not... it's gonna be some tough sledding.

The main mechanic requires losing units to procure tokens. At 130+ points, Kin are a bit spendy to throw away for that. Still, trading plus one toughness for a slew of nerfs (-1 to hit, no void armor, weapons going to heavy, lower AP on bolters and Damage on ion) and losing Ymyr strongly suggests they'll be priced much cheaper. In 9th they were pretty close to tactical marines in utility and cost, now they seem more like firewarriors or guardians. In truth, if that means more grist for judgement tokens, that's fine.

Enhancements are really good. giving everything in range of an objective a judgment token is spicy, moving from one to two is excellent. A long list remains good, although that's gonna have to go on hearthguard or something killier. Your second HG unit wants grim demeaner because LD7 isn't great, and ignoring stealth and the like is great.

Likewise, the stratagems really favor big blocks of hearth guard. Plus one AP in combat? yes please. Fall back and shoot is always top tier, especially on thunderkyn or the hekaton. Tokens for going under half isn't ideal, but at least it lets you dish some tokens. And void armor can help a unit (again, like hearth gaurd) for a phase.

As for the Hearthguard themselves... they got the extra pip of toughness, but they lost damage reduction. They did gain the new transhuman type rules, of -1 to wound if the attacks' Strength is greater than the units Toughness. this means S7 or higher gets a -1 to wound. Probably not a great trade. The weapons stay the same, although grenades and the plasma lose a point each of AP. The plasma blade lost a point of AP, while the first gained a point of strength. So, overall probably less durable, but retain nearly all shooting and most of the combat. They can gain deep strike or a 5+++. I think they'll fulfill the same roll as normal, basically terminator equivalents, but they need to be a bit cheaper to make up for the lack of inherent deepstrike/invlunerable, as well as being only two wound.

Bikes got a big nerf. BS4+ hurts, the Hylas lost three shots and some AP, and while the ion beamer gained a shot, it's down to D1. Sure, they can ignore stealth, but it's a big downward trend for a core unit.

yeah i think what you said about points is true... its all going to come down to what we're paying.
i think all of the negative energy on the board is making me look at leagues poorly.

have we seen a road map yet?
i wonder when we're getting an actual codex again.

No idea.

Marines might not overall go up that much though individual units might have bigger changes. One tabletop titans 2k army was 1.9k 9e and had enchantments which tightens gap.

After having read trough their rules today, my initial reaction is that LoV will be dead on arrival - unless they're saved by substantial pointreductions.

While reading trough my other armies (except Eldar, haven't gotten around to those yet) my feelings where more or less "gained some, lost some, but still looks fun, can't wait to play it".

While reading trough LoV I just felt increasingly hollow: A metric ton of stuff has been lost and in return they've gained very little in return.

I'll leave my final verdict untill I've seen the points, no use ranting about it just yet.

Squat horde is dead. Unit sizes for Hearthkyn are set exactly at 10. That means no more than 60 Hearthkyn, and no other troops options. I have 95 of the buggers to make a horde list. Add to this that their points are likely going down and my 1400 points of Hearthkyn is now more like 800, with 35 models collecting dust.

I don't like that CCWs were homogenized. However, I DO like that two other guys in the squad can take them now.

I do like that they added another heavy weapon option to the Hearthkyn.

do you guys feel like ours hurts al little more simply because we lack the variety of units the other armies have?

im still not loving the loss to bs but the extra toughness is cool.
i wonder if it really helps anything though.

Read trough the points, my impression is "not amazing but can probably work."

Some good reductions across the board (as expected given everything that was removed and/or nerfed)

Uthar: 160 -> 115
Khal: 100 -> 90
Champ: 130 -> 75
Grimnyr: 100 -> 75
Brokhyr: 90 -> 75
Warriors: ~18 -> 13,5
Hearthguard: 45 -> 33
Berserk: 34 -> 27
Pioneer: 43 -> 35
Thunderkyn: 35 -> 31,67
Sagitaur: 140 -> 120
Hekaton: 320 -> 245
(Points are average PPM of how I used to field these units.)

In the end, the only unit that really pops at me (in a negative way) are the Berserks: Yeah they went down in price, but ain't no way in hell they're worth 27 in their current state.

sucks the sagitaur went to 1 so now you can have max 3 instead of 6.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
sucks the sagitaur went to 1 so now you can have max 3 instead of 6.

I believe you can still field that because of them being dedicated transports.

 Olthannon wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
sucks the sagitaur went to 1 so now you can have max 3 instead of 6.

I believe you can still field that because of them being dedicated transports.

dang, thanks olthannon, i missed that. on a related note... we can split hearthkyn into two 5 man squads if you take a sagitaur. anyone see a use for that?

I think one of the oddest things about this army is there are multiple ways to get +1 to hit (judgements, Brokyr Iron-Master and [Heavy]), but they don't stack so it doesn't matter.
But its baked in so hard to the BS 4+/5+ for heavy weapons that you really feel it.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
. we can split hearthkyn into two 5 man squads if you take a sagitaur. anyone see a use for that?

You could try to park a magna-rifle, the other special weapon of choice, medi-pack, scanner and theyn (to tank damage with his 4++) somewhere while the other half of the squad scoots around to cap objectives.

What the heck are we supposed to use for anti armor?
The one gun on the hekaton?

Not at all pleased with the state of the faction. Especially Warriors being further nerfed, though I suppose they're certainly a lot less expensive now that they get all their upgrades for free. I just... I don't know. They don't look very fun to play. I'll try to reserve judgement until I actually try them out though.

usernamesareannoying wrote:What the heck are we supposed to use for anti armor?
The one gun on the hekaton?

Ironmasters Grav-rifle.
Warriors /w Magna-rail (and to some extent L7's)
Sagitaurs /w HYLas / SML's
Thunderkyn /w Grav-Cannons
Hekaton /w Heavy Magna (or against T10 Heavy Beamer)

And massed S6+ against anything with 2 tokens.

OOTN wrote:Not at all pleased with the state of the faction. Especially Warriors being further nerfed, though I suppose they're certainly a lot less expensive now that they get all their upgrades for free. I just... I don't know. They don't look very fun to play. I'll try to reserve judgement until I actually try them out though.

Yeah LoV seems "decent enough" but the whole Index just reeks of disinterest. I'm gonna give them a go but I don't feel the same itch to play them as I do with some of my other armies.
There's not alot of synergy (except for the focus on tokens) and some weird designchoices that gives me the impression that whoever made the rules didn't really care.

Should we start a new thread for the new edition? Maybe title it "Diggy Diggy Hole" or "Rock and Stone" or "Luck Has, Need Keeps, Toil Earns". I'd start one myself, but I'm already sort of curating the Dark Angels one after starting it.

 MinscS2 wrote:

usernamesareannoying wrote:What the heck are we supposed to use for anti armor?
The one gun on the hekaton?

Ironmasters Grav-rifle.
Warriors /w Magna-rail (and to some extent L7's)
Sagitaurs /w HYLas / SML's
Thunderkyn /w Grav-Cannons
Hekaton /w Heavy Magna (or against T10 Heavy Beamer)

And massed S6+ against anything with 2 tokens.

all of those will be breaking armor on a proper T11/12 tank probably on a 5+ at best and some of them are short range. Im discounting grudge tokens because its a circumstantial item and i tend to ignore those. maybe it's just a bad habit of mine and i shouldnt?
of course we have to use what we have right.
i sure do wish GW would make some more sagitaur
wonder if i should buy a hekaton???

Im discounting grudge tokens because its a circumstantial item and i tend to ignore those. maybe it's just a bad habit of mine and i shouldnt?

You definitely shouldn't. Its the core army rule, and the army profiles are definitely built with the assumption that judgement tokens push most of them to 3+ to hit.

A Kâhl for Grim Efficiency and someone with a judgement-related enhancement (preferably Appraising Glare once the terrible typo is fixed- it currently activates and ends in the command phase) seem mandatory to keep the army running.

just as a sanity check... if i run dual kahls i can still only assign one token per turn right?

Grim Efficiency: Once per battle round, in your Command
phase, you can select one model from your army with this
ability, then select one enemy unit that is visible to that
model. That enemy unit gains 1 Judgement token.

it just seems like there are not enough sources to make the tokens useful.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:


it just seems like there are not enough sources to make the tokens useful.

They're always useful, just that you can't really rely on them being on all the time against everything. I fear this army, more than perhaps any other, is harmed tremendously by such a small unit selection. Everything appears to be internally balanced pretty well, but with so few options it feels like Votann are missing a lot of the design space other factions enjoy and it leads to poorly defined strengths and weaknesses. Not to mention how some of that internal balance is attributed to just poor Leader interaction. That'll be an issue affecting external balance for some time, and while a second wave is all but guaranteed, the 10th edition codex roadmap shared previously does not suggest it will arrive before Spring 2024.

Having played a few 10th games with my LoV now, this is how I feel about our units (in terms of internal balance, not saying that a "good" unit here is by any means equal to a good unit in say Eldar. LoV is currently low-tier army for sure):

Good:

- Khal (first one): 
Solid Leader, giving his unit Lethal Attacks and a 5++. Every LoV-list should contain at the very least one Khal due to Grim Efficiency due to how wonky it is to deal out tokens now. 
Option to deepstrike a unit of Warriors sounds fun but not sure if it's something I'd ever use. 

- Einhyr Hearthguard:
Easily the best unit in our codex. I can see why tournamentlists contain 3x10 of these. I prefer Volkite and Fists and with an attached Khal it's a really dangerous unit, and very tanky with 2+/5++ and the new "transhuman". The Grenade Launchers with blast eradicates any form of horde-unit. 

- Hernkyn Pioneers:
Not as good as they used to be, but still good. A fast and fairly shooty unit in an otherwise slow army. Scout and Outflank for added movementshenanigans.

- Sagitaur:
Initially I thought this was a stupid unit with a stupid specialrule (Blistering Advance). I still think Blistering Advance is a stupid rule that I will rarely use (being able to shoot with the 5 embarked Warriors will *never* be worth giving up the Sagitaurs own shooting for) but it might help to reach an objective in a pinch. After giving the Sagitaur a go however, I found it surprisingly tanky with its T10 and more importantly, the HYLas Beamcannon is an amazing weapon and adds some much needed "long range" (for LoV) anti-tank.
Splitting Warrior units into smaller units also means more judgement tokens. 

- Hekaton: 
Still good, especially with an Iron-Master nearby. Fire-Support seems tailormade for having 5 Hearthguard with Volkite embarked. I'm not too keen on the Heavy Magna-rail anymore though (1 shot that hits on a 3+ at best) is too swingy. Instead I've started favoring the SP Heavy Conversion Beamer, since it averages 3 hits on anything outside 12". Add tokens and it's surprisingly good against though targets, especially since the Hekaton ignores cover. 

- Enhancement: Appraising Glare: 
Easily the best Enhancement we have, I'd even say it's crucial now given how much harder it is to deal out tokens. I found that it basically added 2-3 (temporary) tokens every turn. 
(Yes, I'm aware of the obvious typo that technically makes it useless. My gaminggroup chose to ignore it.)

- Enhancement: A Long List: 
Solid enhancement on a Leader that attaches to say 10 Hearthguard. Can potentially result in several "new" tokens being added with some clever splitfire. 



Meh:

- Einhyr Champion:
Attaching him to a unit of Hearthguard is a trap, I much prefer attaching my Khal to my Hearthguard. He is faily cheap though, and is a big enough threat on his own to distract your opponent or cause some havoc if he's ignored. He's also cheap and gives away a token when he dies. Distraction-Champion.

- Khal (if more than one):
Still a good leader probably the best option we have to attach to both Warriors and Hearthguard. Looses alot of value after the first one though, since Grim Efficiency doesn't stack. 

- Brôkhyr Iron-master:
+1 to hit sounds good until you realize that it doesn't stack with tokens. He does bring 4 extra bodies to whatever unit he is attached to and he does repair stuff. He can even damage enemy vehicles in a pinch. Oh how I wish he handed out +1 BS instead...

- Hearthkyn Warriors:
BS5+ on some of their heavy weapons really hurt these guys, as did the Rail Rifle now having 18" range (really GW?). A decent unit which is quite tanky in cover, but don't expect them to do much other than grabbing objectives and you won't be disappointed.

- Enhancement: Wayfarer's Grace
A bit on the pricey side, but technically it will not only revive a character on 2+ but essentially means you hand out a token for "free" (or rather, for 25 pts). I put it on my distraction-Champion and it felt like a solid combination. 



Bad:

- Uthar the Destined:
An expensive Khal that gives up Lethal Hits for basically improved close combat stats and resilience? I'm probably missing something but I don't see the point of him at all.

- Grimnyr:
Not gonna lie, I'm not sure when and why I would attach a Gimnyr to a Warrior-squad over a second Khal or even an Iron-Master.
I'd rather have Lethal Hits and a 5++ on my Warriors over +1T and a once-per-game battleshock success. Maybe I'm missing something.

- Cthonian Berserks:
My first reaction: Hella overpriced. My second reaction: Why would I field these guys instead of simply bringing more Hearthguard? Expensive, slow and surprisingly squishy. They hurt against the right target, but have fun making sure they get there. At least they can chill in a Sagitaur.

- Brôkhyr Thunderkyn:

Bump them up to "Meh" if equipped with Grav-Cannons and you play in a vehicle-heavy meta. If you're equpping them with anything else, why not just field Pioneers instead?

- Enhancement: Grim Demeanour:
It's not bad, but I don't see myself ever taking this over Appraising Glare and/or A Long list.

Wise fwom your gwave!

New to Votann, just ordered two of the Christmas boxes and going to flesh it out from there.

The List!


The idea would be to split out the Warriors, putting half in the Sagitaurs to go do mission objectives, while the other half start on my board side and do the same, advancing towards the midfield as needed. I can also toss a squad into a Fortress. Pioneers do what they do - fast mission play and denial. Kahl and Champ lead the bricks - both of Deep Strike. I know the Volkanite doesn't synergize so hot with the Kahl's ability, so I am debating on going double Plasma. Though I hear so many good things about Volkanite. The 3-man Thunders go into one Fortress, to benefit from the Fire Support rule. The others go into Strat Reserve. Iron-master is going to likely go with a Warrior unit, likely the one in/near the empty Fortress.

Thoughts?

First thought: let's make a new thread for 10th instead of necro-ing the 9th edition one.

Regarding your list, why not put the Iron-master with the Thunderkyn to give them +1 to hit? Plus he can repair one if it gets damaged, and he provides the unit with some ablative wounds from the E-COGS and Assistant. I suppose Battle-shock becomes a concern, but I would think it's a minor concern.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
First thought: let's make a new thread for 10th instead of necro-ing the 9th edition one.

Regarding your list, why not put the Iron-master with the Thunderkyn to give them +1 to hit? Plus he can repair one if it gets damaged, and he provides the unit with some ablative wounds from the E-COGS and Assistant. I suppose Battle-shock becomes a concern, but I would think it's a minor concern.

I thought this was the new one. Wow, tragic no one has made one yet.

Interesting option. I like it. Forgot it's not just vehicles but also healing Exo-frames!

EDIT:
New thread here!