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At visible wavelength, attenuation is fairly weak under most circumstances. (Disclaimer, my experience with attenuation in terms of actually thinking about it consciously is limited to the microwave spectrum, so I'm mostly basing this off being able to see a fair distance without much attenuation)

Don’t know if this has been covered but I’m reading the first book in the siege on terror and there is a new Sons of Horus recruit besieging a space station (I think). He has had all the transhuman stuff done and the psycho indoctrination but is green to combat. He is basically bested by an imperial navy officer in close quarters due to his lack of experience. He only survives for narrative purposes.

Chaos Space Marines are simultaneously weaker than your basic Cultist AND able to rip the top hatches off a baneblade, and tear a human in half with it's bare hands. It's a real Shrodinger's Heretic. They are the most feared threat in the lore, and also able to be killed by a shot in the head from a las gun. So they are really inconsistent. Loyalists have the same problems. Able to take down an entire raiding ship of Dark Eldar with just a knife and a Bolter, but also able to be killed by a blunt mace wielding sentient plant with hate for blood.

I do suspect a lot of marine deaths are just due to massive overconfidence. "Puny mortals can't hurt me, i'm unstoppabl.... wait did you just clamp a krak grenade to my *BOOM*" They are vets of countless fights, they're gonna slip up or get complacent eventually.

Also, wasn't there a heresy novel of world eaters vs a whole planet of clone humans, the marines got their asses handed to them by a bunch of baseline humans peacefully walking up to them and essentially dogpilling them till they were crushed to death.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are simultaneously weaker than your basic Cultist AND able to rip the top hatches off a baneblade, and tear a human in half with it's bare hands. It's a real Shrodinger's Heretic. They are the most feared threat in the lore, and also able to be killed by a shot in the head from a las gun. So they are really inconsistent. Loyalists have the same problems. Able to take down an entire raiding ship of Dark Eldar with just a knife and a Bolter, but also able to be killed by a blunt mace wielding sentient plant with hate for blood.

This is actually not unlike humans. Humans can die from one punch to the head. They can also survive a pole being shoved through their head. Go figure.

So, what you're saying is, the "lore" is inconsistent? **Clutches Pearls**

The Basic human in these "thought experiments" is both Sly Marbo and Yamcha. It's confusing at times.

In this world you're either Stallone or Schwarzenegger, or you're the guy on the other end of their guns.

It may also be worth noting a few things when discussing the relative effectiveness of 40k's firearms... And I apologize for not having sources. I believe it was Bastion Wars Omnibus? And it has some ties to real world weapons.

5.56mm isn't intended to kill with one or two shots to extremities or center of mass. Will it or can it? Yes, but shots to soft tissue or "unimportant" places can still simultaneously not kill someone, and still remove them from combat. A Casualty of Combat does not necessarily mean that the combatant is dead.

Circling back around to Bastion Wars I believe, Lasguns and Stubbers/etcs are compared against one another. Lasguns are preferred weapons for protracted battles and wars for a number of reasons. They can be easily recharged/reused compared to stubbers needing solid shell ammunition made for them. As well, non-lethal wounds dealt by Las weapons are much, much harder to heal compared to solid shell. Due to the damage from the shot, and the instant burning/cauterizing effect. You may not kill with a lasgun shot just the same as a stubber shot may not kill, but a lasgun will keep that wounded opponent down for much longer. In all ways, its presented as a superior attrition weapon.

So, on the tabletop, a guardsman wounds another guardsman with a lasgun. They're removed as a casualty. That guardsman may not be dead, but they're out of the fight. Bolters on the other hand are quite obviously, highly lethal weapons.

Asenion wrote:
True or false? I hear it a lot at Game Stores.

I mean, sure, if those Guardsmen were going to come at them 1 on 1.

Realistically though, that's not what's going to happen. There will be an initial shock of transhuman dread once that marine hits the Guardsmen. Eventually they'll begin to adjust to the situation, often under pressure instincts fall back onto training. That squad would likely alert their platoon, that platoon would alert their company, that company would alter surrounding forces, and they'll organise a force to defeat that marine.

If that marine is in the open, well, that's easy game. Surround him, focus fire with the small arms, distract the marine from the actual weapons that can hurt him. Split up your plasma guns, melta guns, missile launchers, lascannons, etc to hit him in multiple directions at once.

If it's in the confines of a city or hive, that's much harder. You'd try to get a rough idea of their location and direction. Lay traps, create ambushes, try to catch him in large open rooms where you can fall back to the above steps.

They will take losses, maybe a lot of losses, but they can take him down.

Nope. According to a black library book (canon ) a marine gets dragged down and killed by a mob of civilians - and all they had was some scattered shivs...

10k guardsmen with las rifles? nah... multiple examples of marines getting felled by lasfire through the lense/armor joins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jarms48 wrote:

Asenion wrote:
True or false? I hear it a lot at Game Stores.

I mean, sure, if those Guardsmen were going to come at them 1 on 1.

True... But even then.. one of those guardsmen will get a lucky shot in either the neck seal or lense before the marine turn them into pulp depending on how good a shot they are.

 Argive wrote:
Nope. According to a black library book (canon ) a marine gets dragged down and killed by a mob of civilians - and all they had was some scattered shivs...

10k guardsmen with las rifles? nah... multiple examples of marines getting felled by lasfire through the lense/armor joins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jarms48 wrote:

Asenion wrote:
True or false? I hear it a lot at Game Stores.

I mean, sure, if those Guardsmen were going to come at them 1 on 1.

True... But even then.. one of those guardsmen will get a lucky shot in either the neck seal or lense before the marine turn them into pulp depending on how good a shot they are.

I'm going to raise the stakes!

I say 1 Space Marine can beat 100 trillion, billion, zillion, trillion, Imperial Guard!!!

Seriously that's what I'm saying. Horus us my Evidence.

Horus isn't a "space marine" he's a Primarch, and the strongest one at that. It literally took the Emperor to beat him. And that ended up killing him in the end.

Calling the primarchs SM is like calling a Custodian a Conscript.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Horus isn't a "space marine" he's a Primarch, and the strongest one at that. It literally took the Emperor to beat him. And that ended up killing him in the end.

Calling the primarchs SM is like calling a Custodian a Conscript.

Horus did Nothing Wrong!

Without having read the thread i really hope this conversation has moved on rather than an actual debate about the thread title!

I can't face reading through the thread, but I sincerely hope someone asked one at a time or all at once?

Well, it started out 10 regiments of Sly Marbos with Artillery and Air Support vs 1 neophyte with a sharp stick, then it became 10000 Conscripts with Guardsman's primers vs Dante. It's waffled fairly quickly back and forth since then.

When last we left, it was the Predator vs 10000 Imperial Sardukar?

It would go badly for Preddie if he fired the laser at the shields without realising what would happen.

Don't forget the "One Space Marine means a battleship and exterminatus, and Guardsmen don't know how to operate their artillery and anti space weaponry."

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also on the fleet thing?

Astartes picket vessels such as the Gladius class might be commended, or at least overseen, by a single Astartes.

Given they’re standard issue across Chapters? Sucks to be those 10,000 hypothetical Guardsmen.

For reference? The Gladius Class was around 3km in length. To mix settings? A Super Star Destroyer is around 5.5km.

That’s right. A ship and it’s equivalent typically deployed in squadrons as picket and support ships are staggeringly huge.

The Executor Class SSD is 19km long, not to detract from the 40k conversation but which SSD class are you referring too? 5.5 is the upper end of Star BC from what I know of the Setting, Star Dreadnoughts/SSD are consistently stated to be larger.

Bringing in Starships still seems weird to me. I thought the whole point was to compare one ground based fighting force (Space Marines) with another (Guardsmen).
If we start talking spaceships (regardless in which side), shouldn't we compare 1 Space Marine vs. 10.000 Navy personell?

The space marine is allowed the ship. But they can't operate it with just themselves, as the criteria wasn't 1 space marine and several thousand serfs, servitors etc., so it does nothing even if they were on the ship in the first place.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The space marine is allowed the ship. But they can't operate it with just themselves, as the criteria wasn't 1 space marine and several thousand serfs, servitors etc., so it does nothing even if they were on the ship in the first place.

That all came up when folk were adding exclusively PDF related resources to the mix. Plus, I still maintain a Gladius, overseen by a single Astartes is still a single Astartes

Because technically correct? Is the best kind of correct

As for relative ship length, I’m happy to concede I was off on the length of a Super Star Destroyer. But in my defence I blame wildly differing Google Results.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
The space marine is allowed the ship. But they can't operate it with just themselves, as the criteria wasn't 1 space marine and several thousand serfs, servitors etc., so it does nothing even if they were on the ship in the first place.

That all came up when folk were adding exclusively PDF related resources to the mix. Plus, I still maintain a Gladius, overseen by a single Astartes is still a single Astartes

Because technically correct? Is the best kind of correct

As for relative ship length, I’m happy to concede I was off on the length of a Super Star Destroyer. But in my defence I blame wildly differing Google Results.

You denied that the Imperial Guard make use of emplaced planetary defences, which is laughably wrong. Any invasion of a new world will require establishing a beachhead, which also requires establishing defences for that beachhead. You cannot rely entirely on the Navy to maintain orbital supremacy over the entire campaign.

There is no PDF on a world being invaded to be added to the Imperium, so who is operating the Guard's orbital defences?

What, canonical, orbital defences?

I’m not aware of IG ever having such a thing. And even then, that would be the purview of Techpriests over Guardsmen.

A single Gladius, with thousands of people, counts as 1 Astartes, but Guardsmen can't even know how to man planetary defenses, which they likely would have training with, since most come from the pdf, and have to know how to use it, since the mechanicus won't always be on hand?

The Astartes can have a ship, but he needs to be on his own, if Guardsmen don't even know how to use their own weapons.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What, canonical, orbital defences?

I’m not aware of IG ever having such a thing. And even then, that would be the purview of Techpriests over Guardsmen.

You think that the guard does not set up orbital batteries to defend their command centers they establish on world during wartime? That would make destroying the entire command structure of the Imperial Guard in a single nuclear strike a piece of piss provided you can gain a momentary period of orbital superiority. Since that doesn't happen, we can infer that the Guard have defences on world which does not rely on orbital superiority.

And no, the guard do not rely on techpriests to operate heavy weaponry. It is not techpriests driving their tanks, or manning earthshaker batteries. The purview of the techpriests in the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy is the maintenance of equipment, not operation.

From the Tech-Priest Enginseer specialty description in the Only War rulebook: "Conspicuous among the regiments of the Imperial Guard in their red Mechanicus robes, their bodies twisted by the numerous holy augmetics that bring them closer to their Omnissiah, the tech mystics of the Priesthood of Mars maintain the Imperial Guard’s vast store of weapons, fighting vehicles, and other various and sundry war materiel."

There's also this, from the same description: "They are often directly in harm’s way, rushing into the thick of battle to salve the machine spirits of a wounded Chimera, for example, or bringing their copious engineering knowledge to bear on enemy fortifications and armour, to the great benefit of their squad-mates."

If the tech-priests were already operating all the heavy equipment of the Guard, there would be absolutely no need for them to "rush in", they would already be there.

From Hammer of the Emperor source book of Only War, in the description of the 14th Lathe World Artillery Corps: "Whereas most artillery is serviced by men and women drawn directly from the attached regiment and overseen by Enginseers, the 14th Lathe World Artillery Corps has its crew drawn from the Lathe Worlds themselves." This description ends with: "While the Corps remains highly unusual among the artillery of the Imperial Guard of the Periphery, none can deny its deadly accuracy and impressive kill tally."


So, no. The Guard operate their own artillery with their own guardsmen with some oversight by the admech. The admech does not operate all Imperial Guard heavy weapons, as you have asserted.

Screw it, let's change the paramaters.

Can 10.000 guardsmen beat a white scar marine in a race?

Could they construct a fortification faster than a Imperial fist?

Perhaps play hide and seek better than a Dark Angel!

Drink more blood or alcohol than a Blood angel or Space wolf?

Have more cyberenetics than an Iron Hand

And of course, be more generic than an Ultramarine.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Bringing in Starships still seems weird to me. I thought the whole point was to compare one ground based fighting force (Space Marines) with another (Guardsmen).

Yep. Then we have to figure out who is attacking and who is defending.

If the Guard are the ones attacking then they'd have to have navy assets. Which will just annihilate the SM fleet. As the BFG source book states that SM ships aren't designed for traditional fleet engagements.

If the marines are attacking. Then you have to determine what assets the Guard have. Are there void shields? Defence batteries? Do they have deep underground bunkers to protect them from orbital strikes?

cody.d. wrote:
Screw it, let's change the paramaters.

Can 10.000 guardsmen beat a white scar marine in a race?

Could they construct a fortification faster than a Imperial fist?

Perhaps play hide and seek better than a Dark Angel!

Drink more blood or alcohol than a Blood angel or Space wolf?

Have more cyberenetics than an Iron Hand

And of course, be more generic than an Ultramarine.

There are 2 that I think I can answer here, the Iron Hand question and the Ultramarine question.

For the Iron Hands question there are multiple ground rules we have to lay out before we can answer it in full. The first being how we measure the amount of cybernetics someone has. From my perspective, there are two ways to measure this, percentage of body composed of cybernetics or amount of separate cybernetics. If we go overall percentage, I think it’s very possible that a singular guardsman may be more cybernetic than an Iron Hands Marine, possibly due to losing multiple limbs or something of the sort. The other ground rule is if we are assuming that the Imperium will attempt to “repair” grunt level Imperial Guardsmen through the use of cybernetics or not. If the answer to that is no, then I think the Iron Hands Marine wins handily (ha).

For the Ultramarines question, I dug into some of the definitions of generic and found that one is not specific, and that one of generic’s synonyms is common. As I understand it, the term Imperial Guard is a lot less specific than the term Ultramarine and the Imperial Guard are also far more common than Ultramarines. So I would have to give the generic category to the Imperial Guard.

In "Brothers of the Snake" a Single Marine has just from memory: A drop ship/shuttle with guns, a Land Speeder assault ship, an entire armory on board the landing ship, and enough weaponry to reasonably kill off an entire Dark Eldar raiding party solo. And that's just a single battle brother, not even say, a SGT or a Captain. So yeah, a Single Marine comes with a lot of accessories.

A Single IG soldier comes with a Lasrifle, flak armor, webbing, a bayonet, some extra cells, a ruck sack, maybe a ration kit, and a shovel.

There is a major difference.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
In "Brothers of the Snake" a Single Marine has just from memory: A drop ship/shuttle with guns, a Land Speeder assault ship, an entire armory on board the landing ship, and enough weaponry to reasonably kill off an entire Dark Eldar raiding party solo. And that's just a single battle brother, not even say, a SGT or a Captain. So yeah, a Single Marine comes with a lot of accessories.

A Single IG soldier comes with a Lasrifle, flak armor, webbing, a bayonet, some extra cells, a ruck sack, maybe a ration kit, and a shovel.

There is a major difference.

You forgot that the single IG soldier also comes with 99999 other IG soldiers, hence the whole basis of the thread (also you forgot the grenades, copy of the imperial infantryman's uplifting primer, and faith in the Emperor...how dare you! ).
(also, I love that this thread keeps coming back to life every month or so...rolling real well on its WBB roll)