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On that, we again need to properly consider what it is to be an Astartes.

They’re geet big brutal brutes of brutality, sure. But they’re also intelligent. Like, really intelligent.

Certainly their capability for problem solving goes well beyond the average Guardsman.

Which is where we genuinely run into a conundrum of “just how well educated is the average Guardsman”. I genuinely don’t think there’s an answer to that, because it will vary world to world, and depending on where a particular draft came from, sub-culture to sub-culture.

Think WW2, and I apologise in advance because I’ll almost certainly get the term wrong, Wind Talkers within the US Army. Basically, sod talking in code. Just ensure you have radio operators who can speak and comprehend a near extinct, barely documented language. Provided you can keep those folks safe during combat, let them literally do the talking, and that’s your enemy flummoxed on cracking the code. Because there is no code. Just a language known to perhaps a few thousand, maybe a few hundred people. More so if it’s not a language derived from Latin or Early Germanic in the European theatre.

Could Marines overcome that? I genuinely suspect not. Unless they’ve a natural affinity for being polyglots in their Geneseed?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Edit to include historical citation. Bloody heroes to a man.

https://www.intelligence.gov/people/barrier-breakers-in-history/453-navajo-code-talkers

New query: Can 100 Spartan take on 10k Persians?

Similar scenario. All it took was tactics, knowledge of warfare, and terrain advantage.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
New query: Can 100 Spartan take on 10k Persians?

Similar scenario. All it took was tactics, knowledge of warfare, and terrain advantage.

And another several thousand men. The greek force at Thermopylae numbered around 5,000 at the lower numbers given by Herodotus.

Yeah, that wasn't in the Snyder cut, lol.

The Lion might not actually resent Guilliman being in charge, as bureaucracy isn't the Lion's strong suit. The Lion could relieve some of the military command pressure from Guilliman, allowing Guilliman to focus more energy on reforming the Imperium.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:New query: Can 100 Spartan take on 10k Persians?

Similar scenario. All it took was tactics, knowledge of warfare, and terrain advantage.

A Town Called Malus wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
New query: Can 100 Spartan take on 10k Persians?

Similar scenario. All it took was tactics, knowledge of warfare, and terrain advantage.

And another several thousand men. The greek force at Thermopylae numbered around 5,000 at the lower numbers given by Herodotus.

Also don't forget the Greeks *lost* at Thermopylae. I had a professor use the battle as a demonstration that superior numbers more often than not win, and the reason we remember battles like Thermopylae is because the losers died HARD, rather than actually winning.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As speculated earlier, Space Marines have access to a wider range of frequencies than the Imperial Guard.

The Cain novels demonstrate this on at least a couple of occasions, where Astartes can contact any Imperial Force, but the Guard (other than Cain) can’t access the frequencies used by the Astartes, particularly not at the squad level.

That’s a pretty important consideration, as it opens the possibility of the Marines eavesdropping on the Guard, knowing their movements in advance. Naturally that’s one hell of an advantage to the Astartes, and will assist in ambushes and being where the bulk of the enemy aren’t.

Except that's not really enumerated anywhere clearly, and the Cain books are explicitly written by an unreliable narrator.

So we can assume it's more bull you've made up to perpetuate your frankly idiotic and asinine argument.

Imperial Guard mash Astartes to pulp in square on battles. There are many more times Leman Russ tanks in the galaxy than there are Astartes.

Hecaton wrote:

Except that's not really enumerated anywhere clearly, and the Cain books are explicitly written by an unreliable narrator.

Everyone makes the claim that Cain is an unreliable narrator and implies that he's lying. His only explicitly stated unreliability is that he is myopic (he only focuses on what affects him) and that he can be a bit lax about chronology of his stories and about noting of the passage of time. Unless it's in the latest book, there is no where that I recall stating that Cain is an unreliable narrator. Now if you interpret him as an unreliable narrator, you're welcome to say as much, noting the caveat that it is in your opinion, but it's far from being "explicit".

That said, I don't think anything MDG mentioned is that unreasonable considering current technology amd extrapolating into the future (I just don't think it will provide that much of an advantage).

Also, I’m citing the Cain novels purely because I’m familiar with them, rather than deliberate selective citation,

If we stick with Primary Canon being Codexes?

Those confirm Power Armour includes communication equipment, including orbit to surface discussion. There’s nothing to suggest this is restricted to Commanders.

Those also confirm the Vox Unit as being the prime method for Guard units to stay in touch, and whilst common they’re not necessarily standard issue squad for squad.

Do keep in mind my overall argument there is somewhat speculative, as it relies on certain assumptions, but not I think crazy leaps of logic.

Example. Power Armour has internal and external mic pickups. It also records events the wearer witnesses, and can amplify a shout to deafening volumes.

Whilst we have no canonical example of which I’m aware in which an Astartes puts those together to playback horrific sounds of slaughter at deafening volumes, it’s hard to see how it wouldn’t be possible.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also, I’m citing the Cain novels purely because I’m familiar with them, rather than deliberate selective citation,

If we stick with Primary Canon being Codexes?

Those confirm Power Armour includes communication equipment, including orbit to surface discussion. There’s nothing to suggest this is restricted to Commanders.

Those also confirm the Vox Unit as being the prime method for Guard units to stay in touch, and whilst common they’re not necessarily standard issue squad for squad.

Do keep in mind my overall argument there is somewhat speculative, as it relies on certain assumptions, but not I think crazy leaps of logic.

Example. Power Armour has internal and external mic pickups. It also records events the wearer witnesses, and can amplify a shout to deafening volumes.

Whilst we have no canonical example of which I’m aware in which an Astartes puts those together to playback horrific sounds of slaughter at deafening volumes, it’s hard to see how it wouldn’t be possible.

"No canonical example" you say.

On behalf of the 8th Legion:

Of which I’m aware. I don’t read rags about silly little mopey emo traitors

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of which I’m aware. I don’t read rags about silly little mopey emo traitors

You're not a Dark Angels fan anymore?

How very dare you!

I gave you your "canonical example". Then you "thank me" by insulting my favorite Legion. That's how.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
That said, I don't think anything MDG mentioned is that unreasonable considering current technology amd extrapolating into the future (I just don't think it will provide that much of an advantage).

It's not, but assuming that Astartes can do it and Guard can't is what I'm calling out.

Hecaton wrote:
[

It's not, but assuming that Astartes can do it and Guard can't is what I'm calling out.

I don't think anyone was suggesting guard couldn't also do it, but maybe I missed that.

Hecaton wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
That said, I don't think anything MDG mentioned is that unreasonable considering current technology amd extrapolating into the future (I just don't think it will provide that much of an advantage).

It's not, but assuming that Astartes can do it and Guard can't is what I'm calling out.

Here I’ll lean on the wording of Hecaton’s wording.

Space Marines have “modern and then some” tech. But, if we look at the Vox Units included in IG kits? And the fact that IG tend to have cheap, cheerful but most importantly robust and easily maintained equipment? It seems clear to me they’re just not going to be on par.

Bulky, basic, relatively rudimentary is the Guard approach. You don’t need anything particularly Special Ops, because there are dedicated forces (and yes, Regiments) for that sort of thing. Such as…..Astartes.

DeadliestIdiot wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
[

It's not, but assuming that Astartes can do it and Guard can't is what I'm calling out.

I don't think anyone was suggesting guard couldn't also do it, but maybe I missed that.

Color me corrected, MDG pointed it out


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Hecaton wrote:

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
That said, I don't think anything MDG mentioned is that unreasonable considering current technology amd extrapolating into the future (I just don't think it will provide that much of an advantage).

It's not, but assuming that Astartes can do it and Guard can't is what I'm calling out.

Here I’ll lean on the wording of Hecaton’s wording.

Space Marines have “modern and then some” tech. But, if we look at the Vox Units included in IG kits? And the fact that IG tend to have cheap, cheerful but most importantly robust and easily maintained equipment? It seems clear to me they’re just not going to be on par.

Bulky, basic, relatively rudimentary is the Guard approach. You don’t need anything particularly Special Ops, because there are dedicated forces (and yes, Regiments) for that sort of thing. Such as…..Astartes.

Regardless of relative comms capabilities, this doesn't really change the balance of things. I'm pretty sure the guard have directional radio equipment based on the vox operator model; I think the circular bit is a directional antenna that should be able to identify the direction of radio transmission (but I'm prepared to be wrong on that). So broadcasting constantly is only going to give the marine position away. The only ones who'd hear are the vox operators. If the marines are using the comms to reduce moral, it's simple to operate without commbeads, just less efficient, but you just have to wait for the marines to come to you.

I'm still of the opinion that the 10 marines need special circumstances to defeat 10k guardsmen organized in a regiment (even with a massive cache of bolter ammo and no threat of heavy weapons)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Space Marines have “modern and then some” tech. But, if we look at the Vox Units included in IG kits? And the fact that IG tend to have cheap, cheerful but most importantly robust and easily maintained equipment? It seems clear to me they’re just not going to be on par.

Which is not the same as saying that the Astartes has total access to and control of the IG comms network. So you should admit you're wrong and made a baseless statement.

Hecaton wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Space Marines have “modern and then some” tech. But, if we look at the Vox Units included in IG kits? And the fact that IG tend to have cheap, cheerful but most importantly robust and easily maintained equipment? It seems clear to me they’re just not going to be on par.

Which is not the same as saying that the Astartes has total access to and control of the IG comms network. So you should admit you're wrong and made a baseless statement.

Oh dear.

Stop that line of thought. It’s silly. Very silly indeed.

Take what we know of modern military forces and indeed law enforcement. And indeed the relative budgetary differences.

Some militaries are still “men over matter”. Others use bleeding edge tech, the sort we in the Sad Git (yes me too. Well, me especially) Sphere won’t get to actually play with for years to come.

Then? 40K being 40K? Dial that bleeding edge tech Up To Eleventytwelve.

The IG simply don’t need that level of tech. And if they do, there’s another wing able to do it, such is the post-heresy super compartmentalised Imperium. Until you reach Space Marines, where even on their rank and file? Their tech is near immaculate, and they’ve actually been taught how to use it. Because Maureens are just that valuable.

Don’t think sane. Don’t think logic. Think 40K, then get back to me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
[...]

Don’t think sane. Don’t think logic. Think 40K, then get back to me.

Somehow I am left with the question what exactly is expected from those engaged in this discussion.

When the logical limits of SM are mentioned it is countered with this "Don't think logic, think 40K"
When we do and mention Gaunts Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain killing SM without outnumbering them 10.000 to 1 it is dismissed as well as unrealistic.

What do you expect from us? Bend over and hail our SM overlords?

Removed for rule 1 - ingtaer

Also, incorrect in the same paragraph ("The Guard has Guardsmen whose whole job is to operate comms equipment. There is nobody on the Astartes side like that") for two reasons:

1 - Being a specialist doesn't automatically make you better. You could be a specialist marksman, but if the person you're competing against is using better equipment, has better training, and is mentally/physiologically superior, it doesn't matter if they're not a "specialist", they'll still beat you. There's no reason to believe that a guardsman comms specialist would be superior to a fully trained Astartes, with all of their augmented skills, training, and tech. THAT'S why Astartes are held in such high regard - their basic troops are equivalent/superior to human specialists whose sole job is to excel in one field.

2 - Astartes have comms specialists. Primaris Infiltrators have comm specialists in their units, and, if we're using resources from the games, Space Marine kill teams can use comms specialists. Plus, Techmarines would also be more than capable of fulfilling that role. This is, of course, ignoring that all Marines are likely trained in such aspects, because (save for a few non-Codex Chapters) all Astartes are first trained as Scouts, for whom such asymmetric warfare is their first type of training.

The biggest issue with the premise is that 40k has such a vast gulf between sources and what is possible to occur that nearly ANY premise can be argued for, and all that ends up happening is people cherrypicking from different sources that claim different things. It's inconclusive. If you want to say in your version of 40k that a single Astartes can overcome 10k guardsmen, you can. If you want to say that 10 guardsmen could defeat an Astartes, you can.

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
[...]

Don’t think sane. Don’t think logic. Think 40K, then get back to me.

Somehow I am left with the question what exactly is expected from those engaged in this discussion.

When the logical limits of SM are mentioned it is countered with this "Don't think logic, think 40K"
When we do and mention Gaunts Ghosts or Ciaphas Cain killing SM without outnumbering them 10.000 to 1 it is dismissed as well as unrealistic.

What do you expect from us? Bend over and hail our SM overlords?

What logical limit of Space Marines? I’ve set out my argument, relying on canonical sources. All I’ve had back isn’t far off “nuh-uh”, as folk rely on real world examples.

For example the logical limit of "there is only so much power armor can take" combined with the exact weapons Marines use to kill other marines (Power weapons, Plasma, Melta, missile launchers, heavy bolters, Autocannons, Krak-grenades) being common in the imperial guard down to squad level (specifically leaving out tanks and the like). And that while Power armor is highly resistant to lasgunfire it is not immune (especially at joints etc.)

The Single Space marine would have to be lucky 10.000 times, the 10.000 Guardsmen only once.

Which brings us back to the Marine being far more than just fancy armour.

Guard are baseline humans. They need to rest. They need to eat. There are limits to their endurance. The Marine’s endurance is far beyond that.

The Marine will know this, and how to exploit it. Hence using the Vox Network in nefarious ways. Even if the Guard can tune into the frequencies used by the Marine, it doesn’t help them, as there’s no reason for the Marine to be broadcasting in general.

Just listening in to troop movements is a massive advantage. The potential to broadcast over the Guard’s own Vox network brings nastier options. Even just piping through a high pitched tone during combat is going to affect the Guard.

Listening to the voxchatter of 10.000 Guardsmen... simultanously?

And regarding sleep etc.: on an individual basis: yes, but 10.000 Guardsmen will never all be asleep/eating/on the loo.



Don't get me wrong: I agree that Space Marines have a higher strategic and tactic value which might be 1:10.000 or even more. I agree that a Guardsmen could only beat an SM with an incredible amount of luck or if the SM does an incredibly stupid mistake. I also don't debate that SM chapters have naval assets and Guardsmen don't or that SM have advanced Vox-tech and education.
All fine and good. I just think that pitting them up against actual 10.000 guardsmen and claiming they could reliably win, without incredible luck is too much for me to believe.

Even if they mess with Vox and are all sneaky... it takes ONE Krak grenade they missed, ONE sergeants Plasma pistols, ONE lucky lasgun shot destabilizing the Marines Plasmapistol etc...

Pyroalchi wrote:The Single Space marine would have to be lucky 10.000 times, the 10.000 Guardsmen only once.

Maybe, but the 10,000 guardsmen aren't all going to get a shot, and aren't all going to be operational at the same time. Truthfully, it likely won't be 10,000 guardsmen, but more like a few hundred at most at a time.

Pyroalchi wrote:it takes ONE Krak grenade they missed, ONE sergeants Plasma pistols, ONE lucky lasgun shot destabilizing the Marines Plasmapistol etc...

Absolutely true, but the Astartes isn't having to take those all on at once, and can take steps to eliminate the biggest threats prior to engagement. The Astartes has a better ability to dictate the area and terms of engagement than the guardsmen, statistically speaking.

Again, I don't doubt for a second that 10,000 guardsmen in a pitched battle against a single Space Marine will win. The point is that the Space Marine can pick and choose the point of engagement and how to have an effect in a way that vast outweighs their numerical disadvantage. I don't think anyone's seriously saying that in a pitched battle, with 10,000 guardsmen surrounding the Space Marine and all having their guns trained on him, that the Astartes would win.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Pyroalchi wrote:The Single Space marine would have to be lucky 10.000 times, the 10.000 Guardsmen only once.

Maybe, but the 10,000 guardsmen aren't all going to get a shot, and aren't all going to be operational at the same time. Truthfully, it likely won't be 10,000 guardsmen, but more like a few hundred at most at a time.

Pyroalchi wrote:it takes ONE Krak grenade they missed, ONE sergeants Plasma pistols, ONE lucky lasgun shot destabilizing the Marines Plasmapistol etc...

Absolutely true, but the Astartes isn't having to take those all on at once, and can take steps to eliminate the biggest threats prior to engagement. The Astartes has a better ability to dictate the area and terms of engagement than the guardsmen, statistically speaking.

Again, I don't doubt for a second that 10,000 guardsmen in a pitched battle against a single Space Marine will win. The point is that the Space Marine can pick and choose the point of engagement and how to have an effect in a way that vast outweighs their numerical disadvantage. I don't think anyone's seriously saying that in a pitched battle, with 10,000 guardsmen surrounding the Space Marine and all having their guns trained on him, that the Astartes would win.

But the thing is, let's assume the Marine can pick and choose engagements to the point they're never engaging more than 10 Guard at a time.
Let's assume that, each time the Marine chooses to engage, they're able to wipe all ten Guard with only a 1% chance of failure-not necessarily meaning death, but meaning they can't continue without considerably more risk.

That gives them odds of 0.00004317124 (thanks Google!) of taking out 10,000 Guardsmen without failing.
Put another way, they'd average one success against all 10,000 a little less than one in 23,000 times.

And the thing is, I don't think the Marine can pick and choose fights THAT well. I don't think they've got a 99% chance of wiping 10 Guard with no issues-they might have a 99% chance of doing SOME damage and escaping unharmed, but if they only kill 5 Guard at a time, it'd take 2,000 engagements, which drops their odds of success overall from one in twenty-three thousand to one in 536 MILLION.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
Listening to the voxchatter of 10.000 Guardsmen... simultanously?

And regarding sleep etc.: on an individual basis: yes, but 10.000 Guardsmen will never all be asleep/eating/on the loo.



Don't get me wrong: I agree that Space Marines have a higher strategic and tactic value which might be 1:10.000 or even more. I agree that a Guardsmen could only beat an SM with an incredible amount of luck or if the SM does an incredibly stupid mistake. I also don't debate that SM chapters have naval assets and Guardsmen don't or that SM have advanced Vox-tech and education.
All fine and good. I just think that pitting them up against actual 10.000 guardsmen and claiming they could reliably win, without incredible luck is too much for me to believe.

Even if they mess with Vox and are all sneaky... it takes ONE Krak grenade they missed, ONE sergeants Plasma pistols, ONE lucky lasgun shot destabilizing the Marines Plasmapistol etc...

Not 10,000 at once. Some Regiments have Vox beads per trooper, others have one Vox Unit for a squad or even Platoon. The latter two drastically reduce the number of people able to access the Vox Network.

Once the Marine knows which frequencies are in use? He can transmit on them as well. Just noise and what have you to erode the Guard’s ability to rest properly. Power Armour is also able to jam frequencies. Now the potential range of that is unknown. But likely enough for the Marine to jam whilst attacking.

And remember, the Marine needn’t be in a rush about this. A squad here, platoon there going silent then being found hideously hacked and mangled. Hours or days between attacks. That’s going to erode morale. Do it over a year. Take longer.