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2023/01/05 18:18:13
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It sets the scene that Marines are more than just big fellas in hefty armour. They’re manifestations of death. Faster, stronger and tougher than the human mind is able to cope with.
They're not. Humans can cope with tigers. Big tigers are bigger and stronger and faster than Marines. Tyranid Warriors are bigger and stronger and faster than Marines, and Guardsmen can kill them too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: You say it can’t be hand waved away yet it is in every novel where marines face guard. Many accounts in guard novels and how models interact on the table.
Humans are adaptable. What renders one incapable one day will quickly become accepted as normal the next time you see it. 1st time you see a marine, yeah i can buy it, it’ll be scary and you struggle to make sense of it. Next few times you will know what to expect and cope with it. Before you know it you will be calmly aiming at week spots and coordinating fire to bring them down.
An example that comes to mind is from my reading of Guns, Germs and Steel. IIrc there's a bit about the Spanish encountering the Aztecs (?). It goes something like this: The first time the Aztec see the Conquistadors, the Aztecs think they are gods. They've never seen horses, they've never seen steel armor, they're just blown away with fear and reverence. There's a battle, and it's like 20 Spanish vs. a 1000 Aztecs (or whatever), and the Aztecs rout because again, they think the Spanish are immortal gods. But that only works once. At some point the Aztecs figure out that the Spanish are only human, and they can be killed, and then the Aztecs fight back and start taking Spanish lives.
I KNOW my details are going to be off about the above, I read that book like 20 fuggin years ago. I give the gist of what I recall, corrections are very welcome.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/05 18:33:34
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It sets the scene that Marines are more than just big fellas in hefty armour. They’re manifestations of death. Faster, stronger and tougher than the human mind is able to cope with.
They're not. Humans can cope with tigers. Big tigers are bigger and stronger and faster than Marines. Tyranid Warriors are bigger and stronger and faster than Marines, and Guardsmen can kill them too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Andykp wrote: You say it can’t be hand waved away yet it is in every novel where marines face guard. Many accounts in guard novels and how models interact on the table.
Humans are adaptable. What renders one incapable one day will quickly become accepted as normal the next time you see it. 1st time you see a marine, yeah i can buy it, it’ll be scary and you struggle to make sense of it. Next few times you will know what to expect and cope with it. Before you know it you will be calmly aiming at week spots and coordinating fire to bring them down.
An example that comes to mind is from my reading of Guns, Germs and Steel. IIrc there's a bit about the Spanish encountering the Aztecs (?). It goes something like this: The first time the Aztec see the Conquistadors, the Aztecs think they are gods. They've never seen horses, they've never seen steel armor, they're just blown away with fear and reverence. There's a battle, and it's like 20 Spanish vs. a 1000 Aztecs (or whatever), and the Aztecs rout because again, they think the Spanish are immortal gods. But that only works once. At some point the Aztecs figure out that the Spanish are only human, and they can be killed, and then the Aztecs fight back and start taking Spanish lives.
I KNOW my details are going to be off about the above, I read that book like 20 fuggin years ago. I give the gist of what I recall, corrections are very welcome.
I think that’s another in universe thing to consider too, humble guardsmen are expected and have been shown to face down the worst horrors of the galaxy. Marines barely crack the top 10 compared to demons and nids and necron undead things or ORKS. Ye smarminess are scary but nowhere does it ever say that fear cannot be overcome by a humble human. Quite the opposite.
2023/01/05 20:09:43
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
This discussion about the resiliency of soldiers reminds me of an incident before WW2. Italy had invaded Ethiopia and was surprised at the level of resistance despite the outrageous technological advantages it enjoyed. At one point, barefoot Ethiopians rushed several Italian tanks and ripped the drive chains off their sprockets with their bare hands. This act cost these soldiers not only their limbs but their very lives.
Who then was more in shock about the incident? The Italian military, that's who.
Humans are capable of outlandish feats. Nothing about the lore of Space Marines stand out to me as anything beyond human resolve.
2023/01/06 03:58:21
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
Insectum7 wrote: Big tigers are bigger and stronger and faster than Marines.
What? No they're not lol. I couldn't even begin to imagine what could have led you to believe that. The heavier Siberian Tigers are less than seven hundred pounds. That's less than lower end of a Marine.
"Whilst wearing their power armour, an unarmed Space Marine typically stands slightly over 2.1m tall and weighs between 500-1,000 kg."
- Deathwatch core rulebook, page 28
Their armour in the book is 180 kg, so out of armour a Marine that was 500 kg in it would weigh 320 kg, or a little over 705 pounds.
Do you have another source to contradict that weight?
And in terms of strength; I would be interested in seeing a single source that implies Marine is physically weaker than a tiger.
2023/01/06 06:55:02
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
Insectum7 wrote: Big tigers are bigger and stronger and faster than Marines.
What? No they're not lol. I couldn't even begin to imagine what could have led you to believe that. The heavier Siberian Tigers are less than seven hundred pounds. That's less than lower end of a Marine.
"Whilst wearing their power armour, an unarmed Space Marine typically stands slightly over 2.1m tall and weighs between 500-1,000 kg."
- Deathwatch core rulebook, page 28
Their armour in the book is 180 kg, so out of armour a Marine that was 500 kg in it would weigh 320 kg, or a little over 705 pounds.
Do you have another source to contradict that weight?
And in terms of strength; I would be interested in seeing a single source that implies Marine is physically weaker than a tiger.
Sooo, the Guiness Book of World Records gives the weight of the largest tiger at 935 pounds. Andre the Giant was 7'4", and weighed 520 pounds. Marines are put at 7". But also GW is also often not great at numbers, so weights that they might give are maybe not great either.
(and 500 to 1000 kgs is a pretty big range). But to your point, tigers on average are a bit smaller than I thought, and I suppose since Marines are depicted as generally bulkier and described as denser than humans, then a Marine could be more massive than a tiger. As for strength, animals are just crazy strong in general. So for yuks, let's say that Marines are given "animal strength" as part of their transformation. (although at the same time they have S4, and "mere human" Catachans also were given S4. But the Strength values cover a wide ground, so it could go either way imo.) I dunno, do you have a source for Marines being stronger than a tiger?
But it doesn't change the argument. Just pick a bigger animal, like a bear. Big bears can weigh 1,400 pounds. They were also in danger of being hunted to extinction, because guns, 'Murica, etc. I'm sure there are people who would hunt four ton orcas or dinosaurs if they could.
Not to mention that a number of IG regiments are drawn from deathworlds where the local wildlife is god-knows-what.
. . .
Here's some other potentially useful reference numbers: "The Mountain" (height 6'9") at his peak strongman days weighed 463 pounds. Then he turned to boxing, and lost weight for the sport, going to 335 pounds for fighting. He's got what I imagine most people think of as being a "Space Marine physique".
And actually, the 2.1 meter height you give just happens to be about 6'9", the height of Mountain Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/01/06 07:36:21
Do one massacre. Record it. Then…..broadcast it, whenever you want.
=> it's also fascinating that the Marine is simultanously broadcasting regularly and super sneaker and undetactable. A bit like Schrödingers cat...
Also just a general note on the whole "Space Marines are inhumanly fast" etc. I'm not convinced that means "I can dodge lasguns, duh!". The fastest humans can sprint at around 40kph for a bunch of seconds. The ability to hold that speed for a minute or sprint at 50 kph for seconds already is "inhumanly fast".
The ability to lift 1000 kg for 5-10 seconds already is "inhumanly strong".
The ability to reliably dodge an arrow or crossbow bolt already is "inhumanly fast reflexes"
They are still limited by inertia etc. running towards a target at full speed sounds like a good idea, until you realize you have to change direction to dodge fire etc. And giving a 1000 pound body that moves at 40 mph (64 kph if I'm not off) a new direction needs a considerably amount of force.
~7510 build and painted
1312 build and painted
1200
2023/01/06 09:14:36
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
Sooo, the Guiness Book of World Records gives the weight of the largest tiger at 935 pounds. Andre the Giant was 7'4", and weighed 520 pounds. Marines are put at 7". But also GW is also often not great at numbers, so weights that they might give are maybe not great either.
Those are a lot of words with no source behind them. Do you have another source for Marine weight or not?
(and 500 to 1000 kgs is a pretty big range).
Marines vary in size. Abaddon towers over most Marines and is also far bulkier than they are.
But to your point, tigers on average are a bit smaller than I thought, and I suppose since Marines are depicted as generally bulkier
Universally. You can not find a single example of a human being that weighs seven hundred pounds that isn't hugely obese. Angus MacAskill is perhaps the biggest man to ever live who didn't either have gigantism or obesity, and he was "only" 510 pounds at 7'9".
As for strength, animals are just crazy strong in general.
What a strange and nonsensical statement. Animals are as strong as their anatomy and physiology allows. Just like humans are. And plenty of animals, even those as large as humans or more, are physically less robust than humans.
And as for Astartes? They are literally built to be both strong and fast using super science by humanity's smartest and most powerful person to ever live. If anything the stretch would be assuming any animal that isn't either notably larger than a Marine like an Ogryn or also specifically bred to be strong due to another form of super science like Orks or Necron Immortals.
So for yuks, let's say that Marines are given "animal strength" as part of their transformation.
Why do that when Marine showings are filled with instances of them being stronger than any similarly-sized animal?
(although at the same time they have S4, and "mere human" Catachans also were given S4.
Humans in 40k in non-Terra worlds evolve to survive those worlds. Catachans evolved to survive in Catachan, one of the most brutal and hostile death worlds in the galaxy. So they evolved to be taller and more robust than a human from Terra would.
More to the point, statlines are arbitrary and constantly changing for the sake of game balance and other concerns. How arbitrary you ask? So arbitrary that Catachans are no longer S4, they're S3 just like everyone else. Unless they are charging if they take the brutal strength regimental doctrine.
But the Strength values cover a wide ground, so it could go either way imo.) I dunno, do you have a source for Marines being stronger than a tiger?
Do you want me to bury you under a mountain of scenes where Marines do things like shatter human skulls with a punch? Do you want me to give you the average lifting ability of an average Marine in the various 40k tabletop RPGs? Do you want me to show you cinematics of Marines doing things like lifting a Necron warrior into the air by his chainsword with one hand or punching them off their feet like in the ninth edition trailer? Maybe scenes from Space Marine where Captain Titus does things like push artillery shells that are several times bigger than him and would weigh hundreds of tons? Maybe Titus literally ripping the head off of one of those far superior to Marines Tyranid Warriors in the Space Marine 2 reveal trailer? Are you one of those intellectually dishonest people who refuses any lore that doesn't take place within a codex or some other direct game product while knowing that due to the big picture way they are written actual showcases of the physical abilities of the characters don't tend to get much focus? If so Primaris Marines at least can break a man's skull with the grip strength of a single hand, break flak armour to pieces, and bite through metal cables per the eighth edition codex. Page 11.
But it doesn't change the argument. Just pick a bigger animal, like a bear. Big bears can weigh 1,400 pounds.
The Marine is still stronger.
The average Ork boy probably is too for that matter. Certainly tougher.
They were also in danger of being hunted to extinction, because guns, 'Murica, etc. I'm sure there are people who would hunt four ton orcas or dinosaurs if they could.
\
A Space Marine is wearing armour that makes them significantly more resistant toward getting shot and killed. And is also far faster, smarter, and more skilled at killing people than a bear, orca, or dinosaur.
Not to mention that a number of IG regiments are drawn from deathworlds where the local wildlife is god-knows-what.
Most aren't, though I'm not really going to argue this point. The transhuman dread angle is very inconsistent even within Black Library and you can find plenty of examples of human overcoming it even in the books where it appears, though off the top of my head not usually the "average guardsman".
. . .
Here's some other potentially useful reference numbers: "The Mountain" (height 6'9") at his peak strongman days weighed 463 pounds. Then he turned to boxing, and lost weight for the sport, going to 335 pounds for fighting. He's got what I imagine most people think of as being a "Space Marine physique".
And actually, the 2.1 meter height you give just happens to be about 6'9", the height of Mountain Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson.
Space Marines aren't human though. Even the original Marines have two implants that enhance their strength and hardiness, one giving them a much stronger skeleton the other pumping them full of muscle-enhancing hormones throughout the process. Primaris have an extra implant that makes them even stronger. No real life human being nor do most 40k human beings (exceptions being guys like Sergeant Harker) even approach Space Marine physical strength. Nor do any animals that aren't notably larger.
As for the thread itself (assuming these are just standard flak and flash infantrymen and nothing nonstandard like tanks, ogryn, or notable heroes like Marbo)?
In a standard firefight/mixed combat and shooting engagement: the Marine loses, weight of fire and vulnerability to flanking due to being one dude fighting ten thousand means it's just a matter of time.
Pure melee fight: This one is interesting because, bluntly, realistically the Marine should actually win this. Guardsman are not equipped with significant melee weaponry, and powered armour covers the Marine head to toe without any gaps like Medieval plate mail. Wrap it around a man strong enough to cut people in half and heavy and fast enough to bulldoze through the opposition while killing them (if anyone doubts that then consider that a Marine is 5.5 times heavier than a two hundred pound man. By comparison a two hundred pound man is 5.5 times heavier than something that weighs 36 pounds, or to put it another way, slightly less than the average weight of a five year old. How hard do you imagine it would be to bulldoze through an army of five year olds? Only the five year olds would be proportionately heavier than most guardsmen the Marine would be fighting so the guardsmen would be even easier to knock over than if they were two hundred pounds and like, idk,. two and a half feet tall. Unless we have reason to believe the knives and bayonets of guardsmen are strong enough to pierce through even the joints of powered armour (which seems unlikely, seeing as how much more money and time goes into crafting their armour) it shouldn't be very feasible for your average guardsmen to do it.
But the reality is that examples of those guardsmen swarming a Marine and sticking a bayonet into his eye lense or whatever exist. It doesn't make much sense, but it does happen, so my final verdict on this fight is the old cop-out answer "it depends on who's writing it".
Now, like I said on page one, if it's a chapter like, say, the Raven Guard or the Raptors, and they wage a guerilla campaign against 10,000 guardsmen stationed somewhere? Then this is a scenario where I could see them pulling it off.
2023/01/06 09:28:59
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
If you just want to stick to rules, and ignore established background Because Reasons?
Got look at Marines vs Guardsmen in the Inquisitor game.
They’re….horrifically powerful in that. By quirk of the rules, they can throw a pebble and it’ll hit harder than their Bolter ever could.
But of course, once again this is a case of citation met with “nuh-uh”.
As for the broadcasting? Can you show me where the Guard have the tech to triangulate a position? Because once again that’s sounding like something for the Enginseer, who are not and never have been a formal part of a Regiment, instead being attached.
The whole shtick of Marines is they’re fundamentally unnatural creatures. Not merely superhuman, but post-human. Elevated through arcane science and, depending where you fall on the creation behind the Primarchs, literal magic.
Are there regiments which would do much better and possibly be an insurmountable challenge? Sure. But the majority of Regiments aren’t all that experienced. Hence the title of the IG Novel “15 Hours”.
Read The Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer to get an idea of just how woefully ill equipped and unprepared most will be, because their training deliberately lies to them about what they’ll be facing.
In an urban environment, surely it has to be advantage to the Astartes? Guard can’t bring their numbers to bear properly, and the Marine isn’t fussed about finding a door, as they’ll just, y’know, make one.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Sooo, the Guiness Book of World Records gives the weight of the largest tiger at 935 pounds. Andre the Giant was 7'4", and weighed 520 pounds. Marines are put at 7". But also GW is also often not great at numbers, so weights that they might give are maybe not great either.
Those are a lot of words with no source behind them. Do you have another source for Marine weight or not?
(and 500 to 1000 kgs is a pretty big range).
Marines vary in size. Abaddon towers over most Marines and is also far bulkier than they are.
But to your point, tigers on average are a bit smaller than I thought, and I suppose since Marines are depicted as generally bulkier
Universally. You can not find a single example of a human being that weighs seven hundred pounds that isn't hugely obese. Angus MacAskill is perhaps the biggest man to ever live who didn't either have gigantism or obesity, and he was "only" 510 pounds at 7'9".
As for strength, animals are just crazy strong in general.
What a strange and nonsensical statement. Animals are as strong as their anatomy and physiology allows. Just like humans are. And plenty of animals, even those as large as humans or more, are physically less robust than humans.
And as for Astartes? They are literally built to be both strong and fast using super science by humanity's smartest and most powerful person to ever live. If anything the stretch would be assuming any animal that isn't either notably larger than a Marine like an Ogryn or also specifically bred to be strong due to another form of super science like Orks or Necron Immortals.
So for yuks, let's say that Marines are given "animal strength" as part of their transformation.
Why do that when Marine showings are filled with instances of them being stronger than any similarly-sized animal?
(although at the same time they have S4, and "mere human" Catachans also were given S4.
Humans in 40k in non-Terra worlds evolve to survive those worlds. Catachans evolved to survive in Catachan, one of the most brutal and hostile death worlds in the galaxy. So they evolved to be taller and more robust than a human from Terra would.
More to the point, statlines are arbitrary and constantly changing for the sake of game balance and other concerns. How arbitrary you ask? So arbitrary that Catachans are no longer S4, they're S3 just like everyone else. Unless they are charging if they take the brutal strength regimental doctrine.
But the Strength values cover a wide ground, so it could go either way imo.) I dunno, do you have a source for Marines being stronger than a tiger?
Do you want me to bury you under a mountain of scenes where Marines do things like shatter human skulls with a punch? Do you want me to give you the average lifting ability of an average Marine in the various 40k tabletop RPGs? Do you want me to show you cinematics of Marines doing things like lifting a Necron warrior into the air by his chainsword with one hand or punching them off their feet like in the ninth edition trailer? Maybe scenes from Space Marine where Captain Titus does things like push artillery shells that are several times bigger than him and would weigh hundreds of tons? Maybe Titus literally ripping the head off of one of those far superior to Marines Tyranid Warriors in the Space Marine 2 reveal trailer? Are you one of those intellectually dishonest people who refuses any lore that doesn't take place within a codex or some other direct game product while knowing that due to the big picture way they are written actual showcases of the physical abilities of the characters don't tend to get much focus? If so Primaris Marines at least can break a man's skull with the grip strength of a single hand, break flak armour to pieces, and bite through metal cables per the eighth edition codex. Page 11.
But it doesn't change the argument. Just pick a bigger animal, like a bear. Big bears can weigh 1,400 pounds.
The Marine is still stronger.
The average Ork boy probably is too for that matter. Certainly tougher.
They were also in danger of being hunted to extinction, because guns, 'Murica, etc. I'm sure there are people who would hunt four ton orcas or dinosaurs if they could.
\
A Space Marine is wearing armour that makes them significantly more resistant toward getting shot and killed. And is also far faster, smarter, and more skilled at killing people than a bear, orca, or dinosaur.
Not to mention that a number of IG regiments are drawn from deathworlds where the local wildlife is god-knows-what.
Most aren't, though I'm not really going to argue this point. The transhuman dread angle is very inconsistent even within Black Library and you can find plenty of examples of human overcoming it even in the books where it appears, though off the top of my head not usually the "average guardsman".
. . .
Here's some other potentially useful reference numbers: "The Mountain" (height 6'9") at his peak strongman days weighed 463 pounds. Then he turned to boxing, and lost weight for the sport, going to 335 pounds for fighting. He's got what I imagine most people think of as being a "Space Marine physique".
And actually, the 2.1 meter height you give just happens to be about 6'9", the height of Mountain Hafþór Júlíus Björnsson.
Space Marines aren't human though. Even the original Marines have two implants that enhance their strength and hardiness, one giving them a much stronger skeleton the other pumping them full of muscle-enhancing hormones throughout the process. Primaris have an extra implant that makes them even stronger. No real life human being nor do most 40k human beings (exceptions being guys like Sergeant Harker) even approach Space Marine physical strength. Nor do any animals that aren't notably larger.
As for the thread itself (assuming these are just standard flak and flash infantrymen and nothing nonstandard like tanks, ogryn, or notable heroes like Marbo)?
In a standard firefight/mixed combat and shooting engagement: the Marine loses, weight of fire and vulnerability to flanking due to being one dude fighting ten thousand means it's just a matter of time.
Pure melee fight: This one is interesting because, bluntly, realistically the Marine should actually win this. Guardsman are not equipped with significant melee weaponry, and powered armour covers the Marine head to toe without any gaps like Medieval plate mail. Wrap it around a man strong enough to cut people in half and heavy and fast enough to bulldoze through the opposition while killing them (if anyone doubts that then consider that a Marine is 5.5 times heavier than a two hundred pound man. By comparison a two hundred pound man is 5.5 times heavier than something that weighs 36 pounds, or to put it another way, slightly less than the average weight of a five year old. How hard do you imagine it would be to bulldoze through an army of five year olds? Only the five year olds would be proportionately heavier than most guardsmen the Marine would be fighting so the guardsmen would be even easier to knock over than if they were two hundred pounds and like, idk,. two and a half feet tall. Unless we have reason to believe the knives and bayonets of guardsmen are strong enough to pierce through even the joints of powered armour (which seems unlikely, seeing as how much more money and time goes into crafting their armour) it shouldn't be very feasible for your average guardsmen to do it.
But the reality is that examples of those guardsmen swarming a Marine and sticking a bayonet into his eye lense or whatever exist. It doesn't make much sense, but it does happen, so my final verdict on this fight is the old cop-out answer "it depends on who's writing it".
Now, like I said on page one, if it's a chapter like, say, the Raven Guard or the Raptors, and they wage a guerilla campaign against 10,000 guardsmen stationed somewhere? Then this is a scenario where I could see them pulling it off.
I'm sure the lore says a lot. I'm sure you can find example this and example that in favor of the marine. But I'm also sure you can find example this and example that in favor of the guard. My eyes glaze over at the marine-wankery however.
Point stands. Humans can shoot BigFastStrong things. Humans working as a team are particularly capable at such things.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If you just want to stick to rules, and ignore established background Because Reasons?
Got look at Marines vs Guardsmen in the Inquisitor game.
They’re….horrifically powerful in that. By quirk of the rules, they can throw a pebble and it’ll hit harder than their Bolter ever could.
But of course, once again this is a case of citation met with “nuh-uh”.
As for the broadcasting? Can you show me where the Guard have the tech to triangulate a position? Because once again that’s sounding like something for the Enginseer, who are not and never have been a formal part of a Regiment, instead being attached.
The whole shtick of Marines is they’re fundamentally unnatural creatures. Not merely superhuman, but post-human. Elevated through arcane science and, depending where you fall on the creation behind the Primarchs, literal magic.
Are there regiments which would do much better and possibly be an insurmountable challenge? Sure. But the majority of Regiments aren’t all that experienced. Hence the title of the IG Novel “15 Hours”.
Read The Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer to get an idea of just how woefully ill equipped and unprepared most will be, because their training deliberately lies to them about what they’ll be facing.
In an urban environment, surely it has to be advantage to the Astartes? Guard can’t bring their numbers to bear properly, and the Marine isn’t fussed about finding a door, as they’ll just, y’know, make one.
10,000 is still a lot though.
An urban environment will give the marine even more of an advantage yes, but the guardsmen don’t need to attack the marine all at once for the numbers to make a difference. Chip damage will accumulate, while the marine himself might not tire, his armour will accumulate damage which will slow him down and make him more vulnerable, even with lasguns, and an actual guard formation (as opposed to 10,000 randomers in the thunderdome) will have special and heavy weapons some of which don’t even need to be that lucky if they hit (and 10,000 guardsmen is a lot of chances).
Will a marine paste a single guardsmen - abso-freaking-lutely.
Will a marine paste a squad of guardsmen - yes, unless they’re exceedingly lucky and/or very well equipped.
Will a marine defeat 100 guardsmen - probably in good conditions, but if they’re well equipped in something like an open field or if they’re well entrenched then he may struggle .
Will a marine defeat 1,000 guardsmen (100 squads) - even this is dubious tbh, he’d probably need a good terrain advantage here, but still doable IMO in the right conditions.
But 10,000? Really?
2023/01/06 10:12:24
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
I'm sure the lore says a lot. I'm sure you can find example this and example that in favor of the marine. But I'm also sure you can find example this and example that in favor of the guard. My eyes glaze over at the marine-wankery however.
Point stands. Humans can shoot BigFastStrong things. Humans working as a team are particularly capable at such things.
It's okay man, I accept the concession for your inane "tigers are bigger and stronger than Space Marines" statement.
If your argument is essentially that even in a pitched firefight where ten thousand guardsmen are trying to shoot a Marine to death while the Marine is trying to do the same in a single city then the Marine would win then naw, most Marines would die in this scenario.
MAYBE a Raven Guard or some other Marine that is skilled in nonconventional or guerilla warfare could do it. But most would end up worn down and killed, or at least incapacitated.
And that's just with guardsmen with lasguns and grenades. Giving them other assets like heavy weapons and it is more lopsided, because a direct hit from a lasgun is rather different than one from a heavy bolter, much less a lascannon.
Could Marines cripple a force 10,000 times their number in guardsmen if they had the support to launch coordinated get in and get out strikes on their leadership or supply lines? Sure, it is how they operate.
But a single Marine with a bolter and a chainsword in a firefight without any way to quickly leave against 10,000 guardsmen? Nah.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 10:26:20
2023/01/06 12:39:37
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
MDG i disagree with you here but on the whole think the thread has run its course, put your effort into creating one of your excellent discussion threads please!
2023/01/06 14:11:13
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
I quite like the way this was going, which would win in a fight a marine or a tiger (insert animal here). Way better than the idea that a single marine could terrify 10000 trained soldiers into inactivity.
I’d like to see a marine punch a gorilla.
2023/01/06 14:12:37
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Would shatter the Gorillas jaw. No contest whatsoever. Even if we allow approximately equal strength, with or without power armour? The Marine absolutely has the advantage in speed and skill.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
How about this thought exercise: Your nearest town of 10,000 people and you have 24 hours to prepare for the arrival of a single space marine, having been informed of his capabilities. They can't evacuate, and they know his mission is to kill every person in town.
Who wins?
2023/01/06 16:36:53
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
amanita wrote: How about this thought exercise: Your nearest town of 10,000 people and you have 24 hours to prepare for the arrival of a single space marine, having been informed of his capabilities. They can't evacuate, and they know his mission is to kill every person in town.
Who wins?
The Space Marine because the nuclear material in his backpack means he can't get through customs/border patrol and never arrives at the town.
(see how this works? 10,000 people in a vacuum is such a useless metric, because they're never in a vacuum. Same with 1 Marine really).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 16:37:34
2023/01/06 16:55:00
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
So much mention of inhuman dread. I just don’t buy it. For a marine to being moving so fast to be a blur they’d have to be moving at hundreds of kilometres, not 50 - 60km’s.
Again, a lasgun is a laser. It moves at the speed of light. You can’t outrun that, you can’t dodge that. You can attempt to dodge the firers aim, but they can also fire in full auto in a pattern. You’re going to get hit.
Then there’s the rest of the Guardsmen’s squad. Supported by their platoon, which is the smallest operational level. This marine would be facing 50 Guardsmen in constant communication with each other. Spread over a distance, attempting to flank and surround them.
Humans aren’t idiots. It’s a single target, a marine might be fast, durable, and strong but they literally can’t be everywhere at once.
2023/01/06 17:27:32
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
As for the broadcasting? Can you show me where the Guard have the tech to triangulate a position? Because once again that’s sounding like something for the Enginseer, who are not and never have been a formal part of a Regiment, instead being attached.
Scroll down to the section on null finding with loop antennas and give it a quick skim (the first sentence or two should suffice)
Now take a look at the voxcaster models (at least the latest ones). That little loop wire is a loop antenna and cam be used to determine the direction from which a transmission originates just by determining which direction produces the strongest signal. Two vox operators separated by enough distance (said distance would be determined by how far away the source is and how accurate a triangulation you need) could triangulate the transmission source in two dimensions. If you want the third dimension, send a third vox caster to the top of a tall building, but that's almost certainly overkill. The location in the horizontal should be sufficient.
Edit: null finding is based on the minimum signal, not maximum, same idea though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 17:41:15
2023/01/06 18:10:49
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
I'm sure the lore says a lot. I'm sure you can find example this and example that in favor of the marine. But I'm also sure you can find example this and example that in favor of the guard. My eyes glaze over at the marine-wankery however.
Point stands. Humans can shoot BigFastStrong things. Humans working as a team are particularly capable at such things.
It's okay man, I accept the concession for your inane "tigers are bigger and stronger than Space Marines" statement.
I don't concede it, but I'll give it a "maybe". Nor do I think it's 'inane' that I don't have the Deathwatch RPG manual (or whatever) and take it without question. But I do wonder, since it's so specific, what it says about Marine speed.
But I'll gladly take your concession that humans, especially teams of trained humans, will hunt and kill very large, very dangerous creatures.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Would shatter the Gorillas jaw. No contest whatsoever. Even if we allow approximately equal strength, with or without power armour? The Marine absolutely has the advantage in speed and skill.
amanita wrote: How about this thought exercise: Your nearest town of 10,000 people and you have 24 hours to prepare for the arrival of a single space marine, having been informed of his capabilities. They can't evacuate, and they know his mission is to kill every person in town.
Who wins?
The Space Marine because the nuclear material in his backpack means he can't get through customs/border patrol and never arrives at the town.
(see how this works? 10,000 people in a vacuum is such a useless metric, because they're never in a vacuum. Same with 1 Marine really).
Lol, seriously? This entire thread is hypothetical reasoning. There aren't any real right or wrong answers. The 10,000 people example is not in a vacuum - it refers to what town of that size you are most familiar with and you personally. This is to give you more perspective and so not to dismiss a people group as a simple set of numbers. Frankly, if you are incapable of speculative discourse you probably don't need to comment with a sad attempt at humor to dismiss the premise. Just go back to your real world of futuristic super tanks fighting fungus goons and space pixies, mkay?
2023/01/06 18:49:31
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
Like 42% of the town couldn't fight, just based on age. 10k people suddenly becomes less than 6k. Let's say the women fight, just to be fair. It's likely that no one has high end weaponry, but might have rifles and shotguns. They could make explosives.
A town of 10k people is nothing like a standing force of 10k trained soldiers, so I'd give it to the Marine, assuming no in the town knows how to make explosives and traps capable of killing the Marine.
‘What Lorgar’s fanatics have not seen is that these gods are nothing compared to the power and the majesty of the Machine-God. Already, members of our growing cult are using the grace of the Omnissiah – the true Omnissiah, not Terra’s false prophet – to harness the might of the warp. Geller fields, warp missiles, void shields, all these things you are familiar with. But their underlying principles can be turned to so much more. Through novel exploitations of these technologies we will gain mastery first over the energies of the empyrean, then over the lesser entities, until finally the very gods themselves will bend the knee and recognise the supremacy of the Machine-God"
- Heretek Ardim Protos in Titandeath by Guy Haley
2023/01/06 22:47:34
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
Andykp wrote: I quite like the way this was going, which would win in a fight a marine or a tiger (insert animal here). Way better than the idea that a single marine could terrify 10000 trained soldiers into inactivity.
I’d like to see a marine punch a gorilla.
Gorillas are punks. Most overrated animal species tbh. They get killed by big cats half their size; a Marine would slaughter a silverback.
2023/01/06 22:50:53
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
TheBestBucketHead wrote: Like 42% of the town couldn't fight, just based on age. 10k people suddenly becomes less than 6k. Let's say the women fight, just to be fair. It's likely that no one has high end weaponry, but might have rifles and shotguns. They could make explosives.
A town of 10k people is nothing like a standing force of 10k trained soldiers, so I'd give it to the Marine, assuming no in the town knows how to make explosives and traps capable of killing the Marine.
I can think of a particular, ongoing, Real World example where civvies have proven effective. Petrol, polystyrene, glass bottle, sock in the top. One particularly unpleasant way to go right there. And yeah, enough of them could take out a Marine.
Granted you’d need to catch him off guard and be close enough to lob one, and it’d probably take more than one or two.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: If you just want to stick to rules, and ignore established background Because Reasons?
Got look at Marines vs Guardsmen in the Inquisitor game.
They’re….horrifically powerful in that. By quirk of the rules, they can throw a pebble and it’ll hit harder than their Bolter ever could.
But of course, once again this is a case of citation met with “nuh-uh”.
As you say "by a quirk in the rules".
By the rules, Marines have always moved at "human" speed in 40k. There used to be another category for fast moving animals, horses, wolves, etc. That category was Beasts. You know what was never categorized as a "beast"? Marines.
"Beasts" weren't like, particularly difficult targets to hit for Guardsmen either.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/06 23:00:44
I don't concede it, but I'll give it a "maybe". Nor do I think it's 'inane' that I don't have the Deathwatch RPG manual (or whatever) and take it without question.
Bluntly, it is inane that after presumably being exposed to 40k content, even just things like the ninth edition trailer where Primaris and Sisters were fighting Necrons, for you to make a bold assertion that tigers are bigger and stronger than Marines, particularly Marines in powered armour.
But I do wonder, since it's so specific, what it says about Marine speed.
For the record I don't actually put any particular stock into things like people's capabilities based on what they can do via game mechanics, otherwise a Dark Heresy psyker can fairly trivially kill a Bloodthirster by throwing a car at him due to the way the damage is calculated.
But sure, in terms of running speed an average Marine runs like six meters per second in a round if they're running. Faster than average (how much I'm not sure, a cursory search has given me numbers as low as 2.4 and as high as 5), but slower than Usain Bolt's top sprinting speed at like 10.44 mps which is surprisingly slow. Things look better for the Marine in combat where a somewhat faster than average Marine can take the deflect shot talent to parry primitive weapons if they want, which old guns like flintlocks as well as crossbows fall under.
If you were considering using this as a gotcha for the sake of your general argument I would caution you from doing so, because the Deathwatch core rulebook also makes Marines effectively immune to lasgun fire, seeing as a lasgun does 1d10+3 damage and a Marine's damage reduction between his toughness bonus of 8 and his armour's defense of 8 or 10 (on chest) means 16-18 damage is subtracted from each instance of damage. And unfortunately for my good friends the Imperial Guardsmen, NPCs can't normally benefit from the game's crit rule "righteous fury" unless it's an important character, like a boss or elite troop basically. Even your average Chaos Marine doesn't benefit from the rule in the book.
But I'll gladly take your concession that humans, especially teams of trained humans, will hunt and kill very large, very dangerous creatures.
None half as dangerous as a Marine.
Source?
You want a source on Marines being more skilled than a gorilla?
A mere human can "shatter" a skull with a hammer.
A human can not in fact "shatter" another standing fully grown human being's skull with a framing hammer, the kind of hammer that comes to mind when someone says "hammer". They could crack the skull and very likely kill the fellow human being but they will not cause the entire skull to shatter and explode with the force of a single strike. Marines can pulp human skulls and heads with a single standing punch. To accomplish the same a person would need a sledgehammer and the person they were doing it to would have to be lying down with the floor between the sledgehammer and their skull.
Actually sure! Please do!
Sure that's easy. In powered armour they would have a total strength bonus of 10, having 40 strength, unnatural strength x2, and power armour adding 20 more strength. They have a toughness bonus of 8 on average, having 40 toughness and unnatural toughness x2. To calculate lifting strength you would have to add the strength and toughness bonus, so we get 18. So per the chart on page 208, a Marine's max lifting without having to strain themselves is 2,700 kg, or 5,952 pounds, or just shy of three tons. To put it another way, per Deathwatch a Marine in armour can comfortably lift a male white rhino over their head. I say "comfortably" because with a strength check a Marine can exceed that.
If curious, without armour their max lifting without straining is 1,350 kg; about half as much.
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TheBestBucketHead wrote: Like 42% of the town couldn't fight, just based on age. 10k people suddenly becomes less than 6k. Let's say the women fight, just to be fair. It's likely that no one has high end weaponry, but might have rifles and shotguns. They could make explosives.
A town of 10k people is nothing like a standing force of 10k trained soldiers, so I'd give it to the Marine, assuming no in the town knows how to make explosives and traps capable of killing the Marine.
Explosives and traps like what? Their armour is able to hold up against fully automatic grenade launchers that burrow into concrete and then explode. I'm no expert at making bombs in my garage but I can't imagine your average American town could come up with something that can reliably kill a Marine.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/06 23:45:46
2023/01/07 01:19:01
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
And unfortunately for my good friends the Imperial Guardsmen, NPCs can't normally benefit from the game's crit rule "righteous fury" unless it's an important character, like a boss or elite troop basically.
Why would it be unfortunate for the guardsmen that the marine doesn't benefit from "righteous fury"?
2023/01/07 02:10:11
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
Average Space Marine vs average horde of guardsmen, using the rules for horde combat in Black Crusade.
Average Space Marine, made using Deathwatch rules, has 41 in all stats. We forgo the spending of starting XP as that is effectively accounting for the experience that a deathwatch marine has acquired beyond the baseline.
Power Armour is AP8, they have inhuman toughness 4 and a TB of 4, so total soak, before armour penetration or felling, is 16.
A magnitude 50 horde guardsmen, with BS31 as the average, with lasguns set to overload setting makes 5 semi-auto attacks. Each attack has 31% chance of hitting, 11% chance of scoring 2 hits. Attacks from hordes cannot be dodged as the sheer weight of fire is impossible to dodge. Each hit deals 1D10+5 Pen 2 damage plus 1D10 times the magnitude of the horde divided by ten, to a maximum of +2D10.
So, from 5 attacks, the Horde gets on average 2 hits. That is 2 lots of 3D10+5 Pen 2 damage, which averages to 21.5 damage from each hit. Subtract the armour, reduced to 6 by the pen of the lasgun, and the toughness bonus of 8 and the marine is taking two lots of 7.5 damage, for a total of 15 damage. The average starting wounds of a Deathwatch marine is 21. A single round of fire from only 50 guardsmen using the horde rules brought the marine down to around 1/4 of their health. The numbers only get worse when the marine attempts to close as the average hits per round go up to 3 at short range and 6 at point blank range, where each attack by the guardsmen now has the possibility of scoring three hits.
The marine needs to inflict 31 casualties before the bonus damage of the guardsmen will be reduced, though the number of attacks will drop before that point as the first digit of the horde magnitude determines the number of attacks they make (so 40-49 magnitude is 4 attacks, 30-39 is 3 etc.). The marine, on full auto with their boltgun, can only kill 5 per turn maximum as the boltgun has a full-auto of 4 and explosive damage which grants a bonus hit. So it would take over 6 turns before the hits from return fire become less damaging.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/01/07 02:34:56
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
2023/01/07 07:29:19
Subject: " One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"
I don't concede it, but I'll give it a "maybe". Nor do I think it's 'inane' that I don't have the Deathwatch RPG manual (or whatever) and take it without question.
Bluntly, it is inane that after presumably being exposed to 40k content, even just things like the ninth edition trailer where Primaris and Sisters were fighting Necrons, for you to make a bold assertion that tigers are bigger and stronger than Marines, particularly Marines in powered armour.
Top tier humans Marines are S4 occasionally. A tiger or bear would absolutely maul a top tier human however, therefore I imagine tigers/bears etc could be stronger than a Marine.
If we're taking trailers as canon, would you like to look at the Dawn of War trailer where an Ork fells a Marine in a single blow? (A feat that appears to happen more than once, btw)
There's a LOT of 40k content out there these days, I guess I'm just not following it like you are. (And much of it is called bolter porn for a reason)
But I do wonder, since it's so specific, what it says about Marine speed.
For the record I don't actually put any particular stock into things like people's capabilities based on what they can do via game mechanics, otherwise a Dark Heresy psyker can fairly trivially kill a Bloodthirster by throwing a car at him due to the way the damage is calculated.
You know I don't particularly put much stock in the content of novels, because they're written for drama and tend to follow extreme circumstances. You know how action movies show impossible feats and totally unrealistic things for the sake of drama and entertainment? Like bullets from a gun that throw people into the air, or gas tanks in cars that always explode in fireballs. Like that, but in the written word.
Void__Dragon wrote: But sure, in terms of running speed an average Marine runs like six meters per second in a round if they're running. Faster than average (how much I'm not sure, a cursory search has given me numbers as low as 2.4 and as high as 5), but slower than Usain Bolt's top sprinting speed at like 10.44 mps which is surprisingly slow. Things look better for the Marine in combat where a somewhat faster than average Marine can take the deflect shot talent to parry primitive weapons if they want, which old guns like flintlocks as well as crossbows fall under.
If you were considering using this as a gotcha for the sake of your general argument I would caution you from doing so, because the Deathwatch core rulebook also makes Marines effectively immune to lasgun fire, seeing as a lasgun does 1d10+3 damage and a Marine's damage reduction between his toughness bonus of 8 and his armour's defense of 8 or 10 (on chest) means 16-18 damage is subtracted from each instance of damage. And unfortunately for my good friends the Imperial Guardsmen, NPCs can't normally benefit from the game's crit rule "righteous fury" unless it's an important character, like a boss or elite troop basically. Even your average Chaos Marine doesn't benefit from the rule in the book.
Maybe the lesson is to not take the Deathwatch RPG material as an absolutely infallible source then.
Or possibly you just look for consistency. (My usual tack). Marines have basically never been particularly fast in any rule set. Ergo, they're not actually that fast.
On the other hand, Marines have always been able to be brought down via Lasgun fire, with the exception of the RPG apparently. So maybe that's an indication that it's an unreliable source.
Now I'm totally on board with the idea that Marines can have a quick marching pace, and can keep it up for days. But they've never been particularly quick in any rule set. Therefore, they're not as fast as some would like to believe.
But I'll gladly take your concession that humans, especially teams of trained humans, will hunt and kill very large, very dangerous creatures.
None half as dangerous as a Marine.
Sure, but animals lack intellect and training. Imo the thing that makes a Marine dangerous is superhuman abilities combined with intellect. But the strength and speed of a Marine alone is not going to cause humans who are trained to shoot things, to not shoot at a marauding Marine.
You want a source on Marines being more skilled than a gorilla?
Stronger or faster than a tiger. So far we have one source for stronger, a non GW published RPG rulebook. A source I'd call not-reliable. Plus a bunch of faffery in the novels, which are often contradictory and embellished.
A human can not in fact "shatter" another standing fully grown human being's skull with a framing hammer, the kind of hammer that comes to mind when someone says "hammer". They could crack the skull and very likely kill the fellow human being but they will not cause the entire skull to shatter and explode with the force of a single strike. Marines can pulp human skulls and heads with a single standing punch. To accomplish the same a person would need a sledgehammer and the person they were doing it to would have to be lying down with the floor between the sledgehammer and their skull.
Source for Marine "pulping" skull in a single standing punch. The "cause the skull to shatter and explode with the force of a single strike" thing.
My counter-source btw is that Marines wound humans on a 3+.
Sure that's easy. In powered armour they would have a total strength bonus of 10, having 40 strength, unnatural strength x2, and power armour adding 20 more strength. They have a toughness bonus of 8 on average, having 40 toughness and unnatural toughness x2. To calculate lifting strength you would have to add the strength and toughness bonus, so we get 18. So per the chart on page 208, a Marine's max lifting without having to strain themselves is 2,700 kg, or 5,952 pounds, or just shy of three tons. To put it another way, per Deathwatch a Marine in armour can comfortably lift a male white rhino over their head. I say "comfortably" because with a strength check a Marine can exceed that.
If curious, without armour their max lifting without straining is 1,350 kg; about half as much.
So like, totally ignore the speed of a Marine as given by this sourcebook, but obviously the strengh as given is absolutely uncontestible, amirite?
And they still only wound a human on 3+ in 40k. So how do we square that circle?
Explosives and traps like what? Their armour is able to hold up against fully automatic grenade launchers that burrow into concrete and then explode. I'm no expert at making bombs in my garage but I can't imagine your average American town could come up with something that can reliably kill a Marine.
Drive a car into him. Repeat.
Make pit traps. If he falls in one drop a truck on him. Fill with gasoline and light it up.
Could probably use a similar method to drown him to.
It's old fashioned, but just swarming him and cutting at weak points in armor, slashing tendons at the back of the knees for example. Then bind him up with chains and feed him his own Krak grenades. That last part is less old fashioned I suppose.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/01/07 07:49:39
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