" One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Imperial Guard!"

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**Some_Call_Me_Tim**

Honestly, with standard setup I’d wager 50 guardsmen could pretty easily down a marine. They’re either going to have some sort of valhallan to the last type of thing going, some piece of wargear to crack their armor, a chimera or russ, a demo charge, or an artillery strike trained on their voxcaster.

**FezzikDaBullgryn**

Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Honestly, with standard setup I’d wager 50 guardsmen could pretty easily down a marine. They’re either going to have some sort of valhallan to the last type of thing going, some piece of wargear to crack their armor, a chimera or russ, a demo charge, or an artillery strike trained on their voxcaster.

With some of the rediculousness in this thread, I'm guessing a single guardsman tech adept with an orbital defense laser battery could take a 10 marines with sharp sticks and rough language.

**Andykp**

Void__Dragon wrote:
Insectum7 wrote:

I don't concede it, but I'll give it a "maybe". Nor do I think it's 'inane' that I don't have the Deathwatch RPG manual (or whatever) and take it without question.

Bluntly, it is inane that after presumably being exposed to 40k content, even just things like the ninth edition trailer where Primaris and Sisters were fighting Necrons, for you to make a bold assertion that tigers are bigger and stronger than Marines, particularly Marines in powered armour.

But I do wonder, since it's so specific, what it says about Marine speed.

For the record I don't actually put any particular stock into things like people's capabilities based on what they can do via game mechanics, otherwise a Dark Heresy psyker can fairly trivially kill a Bloodthirster by throwing a car at him due to the way the damage is calculated.

But sure, in terms of running speed an average Marine runs like six meters per second in a round if they're running. Faster than average (how much I'm not sure, a cursory search has given me numbers as low as 2.4 and as high as 5), but slower than Usain Bolt's top sprinting speed at like 10.44 mps which is surprisingly slow. Things look better for the Marine in combat where a somewhat faster than average Marine can take the deflect shot talent to parry primitive weapons if they want, which old guns like flintlocks as well as crossbows fall under.

If you were considering using this as a gotcha for the sake of your general argument I would caution you from doing so, because the Deathwatch core rulebook also makes Marines effectively immune to lasgun fire, seeing as a lasgun does 1d10+3 damage and a Marine's damage reduction between his toughness bonus of 8 and his armour's defense of 8 or 10 (on chest) means 16-18 damage is subtracted from each instance of damage. And unfortunately for my good friends the Imperial Guardsmen, NPCs can't normally benefit from the game's crit rule "righteous fury" unless it's an important character, like a boss or elite troop basically. Even your average Chaos Marine doesn't benefit from the rule in the book.

But I'll gladly take your concession that humans, especially teams of trained humans, will hunt and kill very large, very dangerous creatures.

None half as dangerous as a Marine.

Source?

You want a source on Marines being more skilled than a gorilla?

A mere human can "shatter" a skull with a hammer.

A human can not in fact "shatter" another standing fully grown human being's skull with a framing hammer, the kind of hammer that comes to mind when someone says "hammer". They could crack the skull and very likely kill the fellow human being but they will not cause the entire skull to shatter and explode with the force of a single strike. Marines can pulp human skulls and heads with a single standing punch. To accomplish the same a person would need a sledgehammer and the person they were doing it to would have to be lying down with the floor between the sledgehammer and their skull.

Actually sure! Please do!

Sure that's easy. In powered armour they would have a total strength bonus of 10, having 40 strength, unnatural strength x2, and power armour adding 20 more strength. They have a toughness bonus of 8 on average, having 40 toughness and unnatural toughness x2. To calculate lifting strength you would have to add the strength and toughness bonus, so we get 18. So per the chart on page 208, a Marine's max lifting without having to strain themselves is 2,700 kg, or 5,952 pounds, or just shy of three tons. To put it another way, per Deathwatch a Marine in armour can comfortably lift a male white rhino over their head. I say "comfortably" because with a strength check a Marine can exceed that.

If curious, without armour their max lifting without straining is 1,350 kg; about half as much.

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TheBestBucketHead wrote:
Like 42% of the town couldn't fight, just based on age. 10k people suddenly becomes less than 6k. Let's say the women fight, just to be fair. It's likely that no one has high end weaponry, but might have rifles and shotguns. They could make explosives.

A town of 10k people is nothing like a standing force of 10k trained soldiers, so I'd give it to the Marine, assuming no in the town knows how to make explosives and traps capable of killing the Marine.

Explosives and traps like what? Their armour is able to hold up against fully automatic grenade launchers that burrow into concrete and then explode. I'm no expert at making bombs in my garage but I can't imagine your average American town could come up with something that can reliably kill a Marine.

Speaking from experience only “ballistic” weapons would explode someone’s skull. Any blunt force isn’t going to. A marine punching someone isn’t going to do more damage than the same blunt force being applied by any tool weapon. If the sledge hammer would case massive carnival damage to the point of impact but not “pulp” it without the force being applied while the skull is against a hard surface then a marines fist is going to behave in exactly the same way.

Skulls don’t explode, they are surrounded by tissue that keeps them together even when damaged. Break the bones enough and it will deform. Split the tissue surrounding it and the contents will come out, but even that is in tissue keeping it intact. Apply enough force and the bones break enough, the tissues split and the contents are damaged and they will come out in parts. For the most part the head remains intact but deformed and the brain comes out of any holes. To destroy the head you either have to apply the force against an unmovable surface like the ground or apply high velocity forces like ballistic weapons or very high speed RTCs or trains. At which point you are talking about penetrating trauma and that’s a different game altogether but not a marine punch.

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Void__Dragon wrote:
Andykp wrote:
I quite like the way this was going, which would win in a fight a marine or a tiger (insert animal here). Way better than the idea that a single marine could terrify 10000 trained soldiers into inactivity.

I’d like to see a marine punch a gorilla.

Gorillas are punks. Most overrated animal species tbh. They get killed by big cats half their size; a Marine would slaughter a silverback.

Bet you wouldn’t say that to a gorillas face!

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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If you just want to stick to rules, and ignore established background Because Reasons?

Got look at Marines vs Guardsmen in the Inquisitor game.

They’re….horrifically powerful in that. By quirk of the rules, they can throw a pebble and it’ll hit harder than their Bolter ever could.

But of course, once again this is a case of citation met with “nuh-uh”.

As for the broadcasting? Can you show me where the Guard have the tech to triangulate a position? Because once again that’s sounding like something for the Enginseer, who are not and never have been a formal part of a Regiment, instead being attached.

The whole shtick of Marines is they’re fundamentally unnatural creatures. Not merely superhuman, but post-human. Elevated through arcane science and, depending where you fall on the creation behind the Primarchs, literal magic.

Are there regiments which would do much better and possibly be an insurmountable challenge? Sure. But the majority of Regiments aren’t all that experienced. Hence the title of the IG Novel “15 Hours”.

Read The Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer to get an idea of just how woefully ill equipped and unprepared most will be, because their training deliberately lies to them about what they’ll be facing.

In an urban environment, surely it has to be advantage to the Astartes? Guard can’t bring their numbers to bear properly, and the Marine isn’t fussed about finding a door, as they’ll just, y’know, make one.

You are ignoring all the established back ground that shows regular humans fighting marines and crying or crapping their pants but just getting on with it. I know you like transhuman dread but it isnt widespread or long lasting. I like the idea that a regular human who has never seen a marine before and thought of them as angels of legends would be blown away by seeing one in action. That’s great, but it isn’t going to be that way for everyone. And that’s established “lore” like it or not.

**Altruizine**

I suspect he does more than like it. Help me dread-brother, I'm stuck in the drop pod bay doors.

**Hecaton**

JNAProductions wrote:
But the thing is, let's assume the Marine can pick and choose engagements to the point they're never engaging more than 10 Guard at a time.

Let's not. Let's assume that as soon as the Astartes gives away his position by trying to feth with their comms, they drop an earthshaker round on his head and you have a dead marine. No big deal.

For people talking about "transhuman dread," it can be handwaved away. It's only spoken of by in-character sources around the time of the Horus Heresy, where it can be thought of as in-universe propaganda regarding their super soldiers. Some Astartes fanboys think that regular humans piss gak and cum themselves at the sight of an Astartes, but it's not true, traitor guardsman still will kill them with plasma to the face if they have access to it. Astartes have a wonderfully intimidating in-universe reputation, but there's nothing unnatural about it.

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A Town Called Malus wrote:
Don't call PTSD being "out of their minds", it's an ableist dismissal of a highly complex and variable condition and only serves to make you look ignorant. Not everyone with PTSD from world war 1 became catatonic, many were highly functional outside of episodes.

I mean that's Grotsnik. It's an incredibly disingenuous, disrespectful, and idiotic argument.

**Pyroalchi**

I'm not that deep into novels etc. but just to give a slightly different angle:
CSM should be more or less as strong/fast/scary as loyalists right? Most probably scarier.

I'm pretty sure the Guard fought countless times against CSM and won at least some of those engagements or fought them to a stalemate.
I would also guess that they were not always outnumbering them > 10.000:1

Based on these assumptions (feel free to give lore examples of such battles), I guess it would be fair to say that Guard needs less then a 10.000 fold numerical superiority. But I can't cite a fitting source, so feel free to contest this point.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

No you’re quite right. But the thought exercise is as much the can as it is the how.

The how is where the interesting discussion lies.

**Hecaton**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
No you’re quite right. But the thought exercise is as much the can as it is the how.

The how is where the interesting discussion lies.

What kind of inanity is this?

There is no "can." The Astartes loses against 10,000 guardsmen no matter how you slice it.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I vehemently disagree.

I’ve demonstrated at the very silly end that a Space Marine support/escort vessel will have but a single Astartes aboard, who can order orbital bombardment, something the Guard cannot stand against as they lack the weaponry, and/or training to man orbital defence weapons themselves (orbital defence requiring the support of Ad Mech, making it an alliance).

Guardsmen aren’t terribly well trained. They’re not terribly well equipped. It may seem unlikely, but with the right strategy and environment, a Marine absolutely can kill 10,000 Guardsmen.

On a Deathworld or other lethal environment, sabotage the Guard’s food and water, or their environmentals. The Marine doesn’t have the same issue us squishy humans do.

**DeadliestIdiot**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Guardsmen aren’t terribly well trained. They’re not terribly well equipped. It may seem unlikely, but with the right strategy and environment, a Marine absolutely can kill 10,000 Guardsmen.

Where are you getting the idea that guardsmen aren't well trained? A large chunk of them (namely any of them trained to cadian standards, which is a lot more than just those from the Cadian worlds) have been trained to be a guardsman pretty much their entire life.

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I will agree that if the guardsmen don't act like guardsmen or the situation is heavily skewed in favor of the space marine that a single marine cam kill 10k guardsmen, but a single properly armed guardsman could kill a space marine if the space marine isn't acting like a space marine (an "I bet you can't..." challenge perhaps?), but that's a silly situation that ignores a large section of what it means to ve a space marine or a guardsman.

Also, I'm still not convinced an average space marine would have a voidship at their command.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

15 Hours. Their average life expectancy.

The Imperial Infantryman’s Uplifting Primer.

Many, many books explaining those who survive their first combat soon become efficient, but raw regiments not so much. They’re recruited in such vast numbers, intensive training simply isn’t practical unless coming from notable worlds such as Catachan or Cadia etc.

Certainly their training is nowt compared to a Space Marine.

**A Town Called Malus**

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Guardsmen aren’t terribly well trained. They’re not terribly well equipped. It may seem unlikely, but with the right strategy and environment, a Marine absolutely can kill 10,000 Guardsmen.

Where are you getting the idea that guardsmen aren't well trained? A large chunk of them (namely any of them trained to cadian standards, which is a lot more than just those from the Cadian worlds) have been trained to be a guardsman pretty much their entire life.

His arse, just like the "not well equipped".

The standard regimental kit for a guardsman in a regiment of line infantry is an M36 Lasgun, 4 charge packs, one suit of Imperial Guard Flak Armour, 2 frag grenades, 2 krak grenades, uniform, poor weathear gear, a knife, a rucksack, set of basic tools, mess kit and water canteen, blanket and sleep bag, rechargeable lamp pack, grooming kit, dog tags, primer, 2 weeks of rations.

That is a solid list of equipment.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Not in terms of the horrors they’re expected to face.

The Lasgun is a good weapon, sure. I’ve waxed lyrical before on how I’m pretty sure any modern Military would give its eye teeth for something with the same properties.

Yet in universe? It’s genuinely nothing special. It’ll kill an unarmoured human equivalent sure. Anything much more and it’s efficiency starts dropping rapidly.

It’s used because it’s basic and easy to maintain, so you don’t need to waste training time on weapon maintainance and that beyond “that end toward enemy, ammo goes in here”.

**JNAProductions**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not in terms of the horrors they’re expected to face.

The Lasgun is a good weapon, sure. I’ve waxed lyrical before on how I’m pretty sure any modern Military would give its eye teeth for something with the same properties.

Yet in universe? It’s genuinely nothing special. It’ll kill an unarmoured human equivalent sure. Anything much more and it’s efficiency starts dropping rapidly.

It’s used because it’s basic and easy to maintain, so you don’t need to waste training time on weapon maintainance and that beyond “that end toward enemy, ammo goes in here”.

One Lasgun isn't much.
10,000 Lasguns are.

MDG, how far away from the lore do you think the tabletop game is?
Is it off by a factor of 10?
100?
1,000?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Depends on the rule set.

Inquisitor is daft, but official. Marines are horrifyingly hard in that game. Verging on Marines At The Movie.

40K we know to be inaccurate in terms of actual differences in power.

In Epic pretty much everything dies to a glance from a given weapon.

Hence I draw on background - only to be told “nuh-uh” without good reason (ref trans-human dread, every Guardsman is super duper trained special forces who is never scared).

In a straight fight? Sure the Marine won’t achieve much. But that’s far from the only possible scenario. Unless you really, really don’t like Marines for some reason, as some posters appear to.

**JNAProductions**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends on the rule set.

Inquisitor is daft, but official. Marines are horrifyingly hard in that game. Verging on Marines At The Movie.

40K we know to be inaccurate in terms of actual differences in power.

In Epic pretty much everything dies to a glance from a given weapon.

Hence I draw on background - only to be told “nuh-uh” without good reason (ref trans-human dread, every Guardsman is super duper trained special forces who is never scared).

In a straight fight? Sure the Marine won’t achieve much. But that’s far from the only possible scenario. Unless you really, really don’t like Marines for some reason, as some posters appear to.

Inquisitor was responded to above-50 Guardsmen reliably kill a Marine there.
40k, I'm perfectly willing to agree isn't 1-to-1. But how off is it?
I do not know Epic at all, so I won't comment on it.

And isn't there a bit in Gaunt's Ghosts where a single overcharged lasgun shot kills a CSM? Like, not even a big deal?

**Hecaton**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I’ve demonstrated at the very silly end that a Space Marine support/escort vessel will have but a single Astartes aboard, who can order orbital bombardment, something the Guard cannot stand against as they lack the weaponry, and/or training to man orbital defence weapons themselves (orbital defence requiring the support of Ad Mech, making it an alliance).

You have failed to show a single example of a ship crewed by a single space marine being capable of orbital bombardment. Also, there are AdMech members of the Imperial Guard who maintain their equipment; it's not an alliance it's part of their command structure. These AdMech *maintain* the IG equipment, the Imperial Guard operate it.

Put simply, you should apologize for not knowing your fluff and get reading.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Depends on the rule set.

Inquisitor is daft, but official. Marines are horrifyingly hard in that game. Verging on Marines At The Movie.

40K we know to be inaccurate in terms of actual differences in power.

In Epic pretty much everything dies to a glance from a given weapon.

Hence I draw on background - only to be told “nuh-uh” without good reason (ref trans-human dread, every Guardsman is super duper trained special forces who is never scared).

In a straight fight? Sure the Marine won’t achieve much. But that’s far from the only possible scenario. Unless you really, really don’t like Marines for some reason, as some posters appear to.

You haven't drawn on background.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Of course I have. But then I’m told to focus on the rules, whilst the same poster (not yourself) refers to That One Time In One Novel One Guardsman One Shotted A Marine.

Then I’m told (again, not by yourself) I don’t know the background, and to focus on rules. Then that background trumps rules. No not that background because it has no matching rule and so on and so forth.

Hence every Guard Regiment seems to be SAS level of training, with infinite resources and an intimate knowledge of Astartes physiology and so on and so forth also total tech wizards which can do anything, including stuff there are no canonical examples of.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Enginseers are attached to Regiments, in the same way Commissars are. They’re not part of the command structure, at all. Never have been, never will be.

Any Imperial Ship can manage an orbital bombardment. On account any weapon which can be used to engage enemy ships over thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, of kilometres of range is hardly going to have a problem with orbit to surface bombardment. Sure atmospherics would almost certainly reduce effectiveness and accuracy. But when your opponent can do nothing in return, what does it matter?

**A Town Called Malus**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Not in terms of the horrors they’re expected to face.

The Lasgun is a good weapon, sure. I’ve waxed lyrical before on how I’m pretty sure any modern Military would give its eye teeth for something with the same properties.

Yet in universe? It’s genuinely nothing special. It’ll kill an unarmoured human equivalent sure. Anything much more and it’s efficiency starts dropping rapidly.

It’s used because it’s basic and easy to maintain, so you don’t need to waste training time on weapon maintainance and that beyond “that end toward enemy, ammo goes in here”.

And how about those ten thousand guardsmen having 20,000 krak grenades between them, with only one needing to catch the marine to feth him up badly?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

How far can they throw the grenade with any kind of accuracy? Can they factor in the Marine’s surprising and unnatural speed and reactions?

Even a well placed Krak Grenade isn’t necessarily going to drop the Marine. What does it do to morale when a seemingly palpable hit fails to penetrate, and the Marine keeps going at a pace you can’t match, and he can, for all intents and purposes from your perspective, maintain indefinitely?

On the Marine’s speed and reaction time, ages ago in this thread I shared the Dojo Scene from Ip Man, as an example of fast paced combat. As ever, the response (flying in the face of established canon) was “nuh-uh Marines am not taht fast”. Said poster was partially correct. For Jet Li, fast as he is, is no Astartes. The Marine would, in-canon, be faster.

This isn’t “one tall Boi in thicc armour” vs. It’s a post-human, genetically enhanced beyond all sanity and human frailty, clad in armour that would make some tanks blush, moving faster not than the eye can follow, but that the human mind can handle a being of such bulk moving Unholy Creation vs.

Folk don’t need to like the Marine canon. But they can’t simply ignore it. It doesn’t mean Guardsman are incapable or incompetent. If they were, the Imperium would’ve collapsed millennia ago. But they’re still as children compared to a Marine. Their equipment and training by direct comparison is frankly laughable.

10,000 Guardsman absolutely is a tall order. Incredibly unlikely. All but impossible. But it’s the all but that matters.

**Hecaton**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Of course I have. But then I’m told to focus on the rules, whilst the same poster (not yourself) refers to That One Time In One Novel One Guardsman One Shotted A Marine.

It's because you're wrong in every meaningful way. You're wrong when it comes to the games, you're wrong when it comes to the fluff.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Hence every Guard Regiment seems to be SAS level of training, with infinite resources and an intimate knowledge of Astartes physiology and so on and so forth also total tech wizards which can do anything, including stuff there are no canonical examples of.

No, people aren't saying that, and it's very telling that you have to misrepresent other's arguments to have even a hope of yours looking good. You don't need SAS training to hunt down and kill someone with a 10k/1 manpower advantage, nobody supposed that the guard have or need an intimate knowledge of Astartes physiology, and triangulating a signal is not "tech wizardry" it's basic signal gak.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Enginseers are attached to Regiments, in the same way Commissars are. They’re not part of the command structure, at all. Never have been, never will be.

Nope, they are part of the Guard in every meaningful way while they're attached. They can bu punished for insubordination etc. It's also very telling how you're avoiding the fact that Astartes need Techmarines for maintenance of their equipment, and tried to say that things like chapter serfs can help Astartes in your example but Enginseers can't. This is part of why your argument is an outright lie and not just a mistake on your part.

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Any Imperial Ship can manage an orbital bombardment. On account any weapon which can be used to engage enemy ships over thousands, sometimes tens of thousands, of kilometres of range is hardly going to have a problem with orbit to surface bombardment. Sure atmospherics would almost certainly reduce effectiveness and accuracy. But when your opponent can do nothing in return, what does it matter?

No. Projectiles not designed for atmospheric re-entry will burn up due to atmospheric friction just like a meteor. What a projectile needs to operate in vacuum is very different from what it needs in atmosphere and the projectiles would need to be very different. Again, you're incredibly ignorant on this topic.

Also, as per the 13th Black Crusade, there are entire Cadian regiments whose purpose is to operate and man orbital defense platforms, so they do have the ability to retaliate against voidships.

All this adds up to your argument being a disingenuous lie. Those of us who don't need bolter porn to achieve satisfaction and are actually familiar with the fluff have the right of it.

**Pyroalchi**

And regarding "blurringly fast" and

moving faster not than the eye can follow

: again, I'm not that well versed with Space Marine lore, but in the end, physics dictate certain limits on how fast something weighing half a ton to a ton can move and change directions. Especially the later. The faster the Marine moves in a direction, the harder it is for him to change said direction and the more predictable his movements become.

Regarding the Krak example: Sure, one might miss him, but 10-20-30 dudes throwing their grenades... that's a tall order to dodge.

Regarding Techpriests: Those are in our codex... like, literally in the very book of the IG.
Certain Space Marine chapters need several books to have access to all their units...

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Ah so if one regiment or selection of regiments specialise, ergo all regiments can do the same?

Chapter Serfs are servants. Chattel. Near slaves. You want to take that to its logical conclusion? Nobody has armour. Nobody has any kind of logistical support. Nobody has guns. Just nekkid warriors going at it, hand to hand. My money is on the Marine even more so, especially if we consider inhospitable environ.

As for me begin disingenuous? Seriously. Go back. Read the comments. Tell me, who keeps shifting the goal posts? Who is it simply saying “nuh-uh” without any citation?

Enginseers? Every source I can find solely mentions “attached” or “seconded”. Like the Commissariat or Storm Troopers, they’re not a formal part of the Command Structure. So unlike Chapter Serfs and Ship Crew? They’re by definition allies.

The ship thing I freely admit is stretching things, but arose once others started claiming daftness of their own, and confusing allies with formal parts of the Guard. Oh, then there was the time I was told Chapter Serfs etc were themselves Allies, which given even the lowliest Battle Brother stands above them in the chain of command, and they’re servants of the Chapter, they categorically are not, any more than I’m merely an “ally” to the High Heedyin at work, rather than an employee.

And again we see the same selective memory regarding background, and deliberate ignoring that I freely acknowledge it’s unlikely, but have been exploring ways it could be achieved.

You call it Bolter Porn. I just call it established canon others have given a denigrating label because that’s all they’ve got in terms of reply.

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Pyroalchi wrote:
And regarding "blurringly fast" and
moving faster not than the eye can follow
: again, I'm not that well versed with Space Marine lore, but in the end, physics dictate certain limits on how fast something weighing half a ton to a ton can move and change directions. Especially the later. The faster the Marine moves in a direction, the harder it is for him to change said direction and the more predictable his movements become.

Regarding the Krak example: Sure, one might miss him, but 10-20-30 dudes throwing their grenades... that's a tall order to dodge.

Regarding Techpriests: Those are in our codex... like, literally in the very book of the IG.
Certain Space Marine chapters need several books to have access to all their units...

I’m just referring to the background. One can’t rely on physics and the background, as being very silly on one hand (background) and very real (physics) they’re kind of mutually exclusive.

But…that’s the point of Astartes. That’s what the background says makes them terrifying. They simply do not move or react the way the mind says they should. I’m not saying it’s not daft. I simply not ignoring it for the sake of a kitten weak counter argument which, again, starts with “nuh” and usually ends with “uh”.

Remember. Not faster than the eye can follow. The eye can follow them. The trouble is, the brain protests, certain as it is from millions of years of evolution baking in instincts and that, that no creature of that size should have that fluidity of movement, let alone speed. I’d argue that they eye can follow them is a key part of that problem. You see them move from position A to position B, and see how they move through positions B-Y as well. Your brain is just screaming “no way. No way did that happen”.

It’s hard to get your head round. It seems very, very silly. And it is very, very silly. But….that’s the background and canon for you, and it’s part of what makes Marines such a horrific foe.

**Lord Damocles**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
15 Hours. Their average life expectancy.

That's for newcomers to the one specific city on one specific planet in that book.

The pre-existing forces which the new arrivals drop in on top of have been there for a decade!

**A Town Called Malus**

The average lifespan of a soldier in Stalingrad was 24 hours.

Was the Wehrmacht in WW2 composed of terribly trained soldiers? Or does the average lifespan of a soldier massively depend on other factors?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Were they fighting Astartes?

No. No they weren’t.

Again, please refer to my examples and citations of a Marine’s sheer physical prowess. Not “but in this real world conflict”. Because Marines, canonically, are insanely powerful.

**A Town Called Malus**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Were they fighting Astartes?

No. No they weren’t.

Again, please refer to my examples and citations of a Marine’s sheer physical prowess. Not “but in this real world conflict”. Because Marines, canonically, are insanely powerful.

How is that at all relevant? Were the guard in that book fighting marines? You are using the 15 hours lifespan to argue that guard are ill equipped and trained. Their opponent doesn't matter in that circumstance. Is it training that resulted in the 15 hour lifespan or not? If it is, then why is that not true of the German army in Stalingrad?

And physical prowess means very little on a battlefield. There's a reason we don't pump steroids into our soldiers to massively bulk their muscle mass, you just increase the calorie requirements of your soldiers for no real measurable gain. Why do marines needs to be able to punch through concrete without their armour? They are never deployed without their armour and a normal human in power armour is just as strong as a marine because the point of power armour is that the armour does the work. All that muscle mass is pointless.

**Bobthehero**

Fifteen Hours is a book, it's not an average that represents the whole IG. It is limited to one battlefield on one planet at one time.

Stop using it as an average for the Guard as a whole, you're making me hate a good book because I know you're not the only one that uses that figure wrongly.

**JNAProductions**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Were they fighting Astartes?

No. No they weren’t.

Again, please refer to my examples and citations of a Marine’s sheer physical prowess. Not “but in this real world conflict”. Because Marines, canonically, are insanely powerful.

How is that at all relevant? Were the guard in that book fighting marines? You are using the 15 hours lifespan to argue that guard are ill equipped and trained. Their opponent doesn't matter in that circumstance. Is it training that resulted in the 15 hour lifespan or not? If it is, then why is that not true of the German army in Stalingrad?

And physical prowess means very little on a battlefield. There's a reason we don't pump steroids into our soldiers to massively bulk their muscle mass, you just increase the calorie requirements of your soldiers for no real measurable gain. Why do marines needs to be able to punch through concrete without their armour? They are never deployed without their armour and a normal human in power armour is just as strong as a marine because the point of power armour is that the armour does the work. All that muscle mass is pointless.

I wouldn't go that far-Sisters of Battle, for instance, have similar gear to Marines but are only S3 (in the rules) and aren't as strong as Marines (in the background).
Power Armor enhances the existing physique, but a Marine is still massively stronger than a human, even if the human has some enhancements and the Marine is naked.

That being said, agreed on the general point that being physically superior really only matters to a certain extent.

**Andykp**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Were they fighting Astartes?

No. No they weren’t.

Again, please refer to my examples and citations of a Marine’s sheer physical prowess. Not “but in this real world conflict”. Because Marines, canonically, are insanely powerful.

Please say anything about the countless times guard kill marines in the fluff, quite easily.

You’re wrong about the 15 hours, that was in book in a particular war zone not across the whole guard.

There are many examples of guard killing marines. None of marines killing 10000 guard. NONE. Not even close to that.

So if you’re talking rules, no way, if you’re talking fluff, no way. If you’re taking what ifs…..yiu have to really stretch it.

Fluff and rules all show marines aren’t that scary to an experienced soldier. Nothing in universe supports your claims. NOTHING.