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 Pyroalchi wrote:

Regarding the Krak example: Sure, one might miss him, but 10-20-30 dudes throwing their grenades... that's a tall order to dodge.

Regarding Techpriests: Those are in our codex... like, literally in the very book of the IG.
Certain Space Marine chapters need several books to have access to all their units...

I'm fairly certain that tech priests are not part of the guard command structure. Like Mad Doc said, they're attached and loyal to the admech. Not as sure about enginseers specifically though (nor am I certain that the admech distinguishes between the two).

As for krak grenades, I'm not sure how standard issue those are. I assume there'd probably be enough among 10k guardsmen to down a marine though.

Honestly Mad Doc always seems to have a pretty good handle on the fluff, I just disagree with the application of said fluff to this situation.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Hence I draw on background - only to be told “nuh-uh” without good reason (ref trans-human dread, every Guardsman is super duper trained special forces who is never scared).

You do not draw on background (and the transhuman dread stuff is a perfect example of it). You cherry pick random gak from books you haven't even read and then magnify bits and pieces a hundredfold, or propagandize them by assuming they're widely-applicable, word of god truths even when there's a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

I started reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series recently so I'm going to provide you a couple of excerpts showing guardsmen dumpstering Chaos Space Marines.

First and Only: (Excerpt #1)
First and Only: (Excerpt #2)
Ghostmaker: (Excerpt #1)

"Scruffy" Guardsmen casually killing Marines, even cracking jokes in the immediate aftermath. No panic. Nobody freezes, has a heart attack, or even gaks their fatigues. And these are the special Oops All Horror flavour of Marines.

Now you find me a depiction of transhuman actually occurring in combat. I want the good stuff -- adrenalized soldiers blubbering and dropping their weapons or kneeling in beatific submission. I'm categorically Not Interested in a repost of the excerpt of a Marine (AKA a genetic supremacist) describing the idealized *concept* of transhuman dread, though.

Yeah what he said. ^^^^^^^^

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Hence I draw on background - only to be told “nuh-uh” without good reason (ref trans-human dread, every Guardsman is super duper trained special forces who is never scared).

You do not draw on background (and the transhuman dread stuff is a perfect example of it). You cherry pick random gak from books you haven't even read and then magnify bits and pieces a hundredfold, or propagandize them by assuming they're widely-applicable, word of god truths even when there's a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

I started reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series recently so I'm going to provide you a couple of excerpts showing guardsmen dumpstering Chaos Space Marines.

First and Only (1)
First and Only (2)
Ghostmaker (1)

"Scruffy" Guardsmen casually killing Marines, even cracking jokes in the immediate aftermath. No panic. Nobody freezes, has a heart attack, or even gaks their fatigues. And these are the special Oops All Horror flavour of Marines.

Now you find me a depiction of transhuman actually occurring in combat. I want the good stuff -- adrenalized soldiers blubbering and dropping their weapons or kneeling in beatific submission. I'm categorically Not Interested in a repost of the excerpt of a Marine (AKA a genetic supremacist) describing the idealized *concept* of transhuman dread, though.

You might want to make the link more obvious-I wasn't sure what you were referring to till I figured out that numbers were hyperlinks.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Hence I draw on background - only to be told “nuh-uh” without good reason (ref trans-human dread, every Guardsman is super duper trained special forces who is never scared).

You do not draw on background (and the transhuman dread stuff is a perfect example of it). You cherry pick random gak from books you haven't even read and then magnify bits and pieces a hundredfold, or propagandize them by assuming they're widely-applicable, word of god truths even when there's a preponderance of evidence to the contrary.

I started reading the Gaunt's Ghosts series recently so I'm going to provide you a couple of excerpts showing guardsmen dumpstering Chaos Space Marines.

First and Only (1)
First and Only (2)
Ghostmaker (1)

"Scruffy" Guardsmen casually killing Marines, even cracking jokes in the immediate aftermath. No panic. Nobody freezes, has a heart attack, or even gaks their fatigues. And these are the special Oops All Horror flavour of Marines.

Now you find me a depiction of transhuman actually occurring in combat. I want the good stuff -- adrenalized soldiers blubbering and dropping their weapons or kneeling in beatific submission. I'm categorically Not Interested in a repost of the excerpt of a Marine (AKA a genetic supremacist) describing the idealized *concept* of transhuman dread, though.

You might want to make the link more obvious-I wasn't sure what you were referring to till I figured out that numbers were hyperlinks.

Hadn’t realised that either, even more compelling with the links. Just read these books too and was thinking the same thing. No transhuman dread here.

Closest I’ve come to reading about it was when a rynns world official pissed his pants after being threatened by a crimson fist. Not really the same thing.

I edited to hopefully make the links more obvious.

Andykp wrote:

Closest I’ve come to reading about it was when a rynns world official pissed his pants after being threatened by a crimson fist. Not really the same thing.

Yeah, I've encountered several examples like that in my (limited) Marine-centric dips into BL offerings (mostly early HH novels). Lots of baseline humans getting big feelings when they have to have a chat with an Astartes (or worse, get instructed, scolded, or reprimanded).

The thing is, of course, that that context is incomparable to a combat scenario.

The dread piggies always seem to want to frame the thing like it's an MMORPG stunlock ability, but examples that actually depict that seem exceedingly rare, if they exist at all. Which is as it should be. Because, beyond magical Astartes chad auras, you know what else is generally agreed-upon to be pants-shittingly terrifying? Regular old "we've somehow been doing this for 5000+ years" human-on-human infantry warfare. Which only gets more terrifying in its 40K expression because sometimes the opfor's "regular infantry" consists of deranged cultists whose uniforms physically hurt to look at, or monstrous bug men with too many arms.

Strange how you only hear the Marine fanpeople trying to sabotage conversations about in-lore combat with the "noone can fight my guyz without stopping to cry and worship" routine, though...

Ok, so we are accepting Dan Abnett as a verifiable source of the truth?

Then please tell me how the Snakes of Ithaca (by Dan Abnett) send a SINGLE battle brother to handle an entire Dark Eldar Raiding force? Or how the same brother was able to dive 2-3 miles down below the surface of the ocean, and hold his breath for over two hours? Or the same brother going naked into sub zero Antarctic climates, and lugging 1 ton blocks of ice around? Fighting 40k level Polar Space Bears bare handed?

You can either say all guardsmen are members of the most elite squad of elite soldiers in 40k IG lore, in which case you have to also accept that Space Marines are literal demi-gods, or you can realize that this is all bull dooky, and none of it matters.

Cadian Blood by Aaron Dembski-Bowden has plenty of Guard scenes where they kill death guard marines.

Jarms48 wrote:
Cadian Blood by Aaron Dembski-Bowden has plenty of Guard scenes where they kill death guard marines.

And those are the TOUGH Marines!

Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Ah so if one regiment or selection of regiments specialise, ergo all regiments can do the same?

I never said that. Nobody else ever said that. Think about what that means for your proposition i.e. it's inane.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Chapter Serfs are servants. Chattel. Near slaves. You want to take that to its logical conclusion? Nobody has armour. Nobody has any kind of logistical support. Nobody has guns. Just nekkid warriors going at it, hand to hand. My money is on the Marine even more so, especially if we consider inhospitable environ.

Given that the logical conclusion of your denying the IG access to their own personnel leads there, it might lead you to conclude that your reasoning is deeply flawed if you had self-awareness.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As for me begin disingenuous? Seriously. Go back. Read the comments. Tell me, who keeps shifting the goal posts? Who is it simply saying “nuh-uh” without any citation?

You and Fezzik.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Enginseers? Every source I can find solely mentions “attached” or “seconded”. Like the Commissariat or Storm Troopers, they’re not a formal part of the Command Structure. So unlike Chapter Serfs and Ship Crew? They’re by definition allies.

No, they have about as much freedom as a chapter serf. If an IG colonel decides that an Enginseer needs to die for the Emperor, he puts his ass in the line of fire or is in deep gak. If you have power over someone's life, then that's not a matter of "alliance."

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The ship thing I freely admit is stretching things, but arose once others started claiming daftness of their own, and confusing allies with formal parts of the Guard. Oh, then there was the time I was told Chapter Serfs etc were themselves Allies, which given even the lowliest Battle Brother stands above them in the chain of command, and they’re servants of the Chapter, they categorically are not, any more than I’m merely an “ally” to the High Heedyin at work, rather than an employee.

Chapter serfs are allies if things like Enginseers are allies.

And if battle brother #37 starts ordering around Calgar's personal attache, there's gonna be problems.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
And again we see the same selective memory regarding background, and deliberate ignoring that I freely acknowledge it’s unlikely, but have been exploring ways it could be achieved.

You're the main one here showing "selective memory" as you denied all the cases where transhuman dread wasn't a thing, where regular humans killed Astartes, etc. It's not "selective memory" to prove you wrong, it just shows you're full of it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
You call it Bolter Porn. I just call it established canon others have given a denigrating label because that’s all they’ve got in terms of reply.

And you'd be wrong to do so because you've been lying and misrepresenting canon in your idiocy for this entire thread; this by definition makes it not "established."

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

But…that’s the point of Astartes. That’s what the background says makes them terrifying. They simply do not move or react the way the mind says they should. I’m not saying it’s not daft. I simply not ignoring it for the sake of a kitten weak counter argument which, again, starts with “nuh” and usually ends with “uh”.

There was actually a good thread on this in the 40klore subreddit recently - all the mentions of transhuman dread are in-character and subjected to an unreliable narrator. Given that it's not really a phenomenon in 40k (i.e. Astartes are intimidating but not as scary as Tyranid TMC's or demons etc), it's better understood as in-universe Heresy-era propaganda or one author with bad ideas. The vast majority of the fiction in the 40k universe that represents regular humans interacting with Astartes in combat situations doesn't reflect this, and in fact no fiction that depicts them interacting with humans actually depicts it unequivocally.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Remember. Not faster than the eye can follow. The eye can follow them. The trouble is, the brain protests, certain as it is from millions of years of evolution baking in instincts and that, that no creature of that size should have that fluidity of movement, let alone speed. I’d argue that they eye can follow them is a key part of that problem. You see them move from position A to position B, and see how they move through positions B-Y as well. Your brain is just screaming “no way. No way did that happen”.

That's not how human neurology works. It's best understood as fascist goons from a fascist society jerking off their super soldier program. There aren't examples of regular humans pissing, gaking, and cumming themselves at the sight of Astartes in combat situations, what you're describing is non-canon youtuber bolter porn fan spank.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s hard to get your head round. It seems very, very silly. And it is very, very silly. But….that’s the background and canon for you, and it’s part of what makes Marines such a horrific foe.

It's just not a thing, no matter how you wish it was. An Astartes tries that gak on some traitor guard and eats a plasma blast to the face, dead space marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

Those are Chaos marines, they don't get bolter porn novels written about them, Fezzik and Grotsnik think they're lesser somehow.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so we are accepting Dan Abnett as a verifiable source of the truth?

Then please tell me how the Snakes of Ithaca (by Dan Abnett) send a SINGLE battle brother to handle an entire Dark Eldar Raiding force? Or how the same brother was able to dive 2-3 miles down below the surface of the ocean, and hold his breath for over two hours? Or the same brother going naked into sub zero Antarctic climates, and lugging 1 ton blocks of ice around? Fighting 40k level Polar Space Bears bare handed?

You can either say all guardsmen are members of the most elite squad of elite soldiers in 40k IG lore, in which case you have to also accept that Space Marines are literal demi-gods, or you can realize that this is all bull dooky, and none of it matters.

You're ALMOST there, Fezzik.

Think of it like being radicalized on the internet. If all you read is "Space Marines are SSOOOO powerful Hur-Dur", then that's what you're going to come to believe, because you've never taken anything outside of that perspective. You've gathered no data outside of the "Space Marines are war-gods" confirmation bias rabbit hole, and thus take passages written for the sake of drama and entertainment as gospel. Your interpretation gets skewed.

There is no gospel, just more information to sift through, and some bits of it are more reliable than others.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

Traitor’s Hand.

Cain also kills one of the Khorne Berserkers himself (with his chainsword) on his way to fight the Daemon Prince

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so we are accepting Dan Abnett as a verifiable source of the truth?

Then please tell me how the Snakes of Ithaca (by Dan Abnett) send a SINGLE battle brother to handle an entire Dark Eldar Raiding force? Or how the same brother was able to dive 2-3 miles down below the surface of the ocean, and hold his breath for over two hours? Or the same brother going naked into sub zero Antarctic climates, and lugging 1 ton blocks of ice around? Fighting 40k level Polar Space Bears bare handed?

You can either say all guardsmen are members of the most elite squad of elite soldiers in 40k IG lore, in which case you have to also accept that Space Marines are literal demi-gods, or you can realize that this is all bull dooky, and none of it matters.

So we won’t accept the word of abnet or all the black library authors, or the multitude of back ground writers or rules writers. It sounds a lot like any source that you disagree with is wrong.

Plenty of evidence of over powered marines, plenty but none of them being as overpowered as mad dok suggests. But there’s plenty of evidence to the contrary.

And the guardsmen in those links are just plain old guardsmen. Grizzled but just your standard nameless heroes of the imperium.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

The Traitor’s Hand. Just finished reading that one




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

Traitor’s Hand.

Cain also kills one of the Khorne Berserkers himself (with his chainsword) on his way to fight the Daemon Prince

Nope. Cain engages one, and does wound it. But it’s Jurgen’s Melta which kills the Berzerker.

And remember folks. At no point have I said Guard cannot kill a Marine. I am arguing how a Marine might go about fulfilling such a tall order of taking on 10,000 Guard single handed.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

The Traitor’s Hand. Just finished reading that one




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

Traitor’s Hand.

Cain also kills one of the Khorne Berserkers himself (with his chainsword) on his way to fight the Daemon Prince

Nope. Cain engages one, and does wound it. But it’s Jurgen’s Melta which kills the Berzerker.

And remember folks. At no point have I said Guard cannot kill a Marine. I am arguing how a Marine might go about fulfilling such a tall order of taking on 10,000 Guard single handed.

Fair, I think I misremembered based on the bit at the end about Beji backing out of the duel having seen Cain use his chainsword on a CSM and a DP.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so we are accepting Dan Abnett as a verifiable source of the truth?

Then please tell me how the Snakes of Ithaca (by Dan Abnett) send a SINGLE battle brother to handle an entire Dark Eldar Raiding force? Or how the same brother was able to dive 2-3 miles down below the surface of the ocean, and hold his breath for over two hours? Or the same brother going naked into sub zero Antarctic climates, and lugging 1 ton blocks of ice around? Fighting 40k level Polar Space Bears bare handed?

You can either say all guardsmen are members of the most elite squad of elite soldiers in 40k IG lore, in which case you have to also accept that Space Marines are literal demi-gods, or you can realize that this is all bull dooky, and none of it matters.

I haven't read it, and you have widely-known reading comprehension/logic issues, so unfortunately your attempt at paraphrasing doesn't add much to the thread. Post excerpts.

One maybe tangential though regarding how Lasgun fire might still be dangerous for SM if enough of it hits:
The SM is clad in powerarmor, his bolter, bolterammunition, grenades, possible special weapons are NOT.

If 100 Lasgun shots hit a Space Marine some will likely hit any grenades he has at his body, as I assume they are not stored inside the powerarmor.
If they are stored inside the power armor, said armor has to open at some point in time to give him access to that.

I am arguing how a Marine might go about fulfilling such a tall order of taking on 10,000 Guard single handed.

I mean... it might be me personally and related to english not being my mother tongue, but it sounded a lot like you were claiming that the odds of the Marine succeeding are on average above 50%, more like above 90%.
If you only argue that he MIGHT under certain circumstances and with a great amount of luck eventually kill 10.000 Guardsmen: sure, not debate.
But in the same line of thought: MIGHT a 10 man squad of guardsmen with a powersworn on the sergeant, a plasmagun and some Krak grenades under certain circumstances and with a great amount of luck eventually kill a Space Marine: fair game I would say.

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

The Traitor’s Hand. Just finished reading that one




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Zarkov wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Which is the Cain book with the slanneshi Daemon prince? That has a squad of Khorne Berserkers being worn down by waves of cultists as they fight their way through an enemy installation, with Cain and chums following along behind.

Traitor’s Hand.

Cain also kills one of the Khorne Berserkers himself (with his chainsword) on his way to fight the Daemon Prince

Nope. Cain engages one, and does wound it. But it’s Jurgen’s Melta which kills the Berzerker.

And remember folks. At no point have I said Guard cannot kill a Marine. I am arguing how a Marine might go about fulfilling such a tall order of taking on 10,000 Guard single handed.

Fair, I think I misremembered based on the bit at the end about Beji backing out of the duel having seen Cain use his chainsword on a CSM and a DP.

Because it’s fresh in my mind, Cain specifically notes had the Berzerker gone with a horizontal swipe, rather than an overhead strike, he’d have been dead. He only survives due to deflecting the strike, not blocking it etc.

And for Pyroalchi? No worries. Slim chance sure, but never no chance. The 10 Guardsmen could do it with luck, but there are factors well beyond “how well does a Lasgun penetrate Power Armour”.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Nope. Cain engages one, and does wound it. But it’s Jurgen’s Melta which kills the Berzerker.

Nope. Cain kills a wounded berzerker with his chainsword in chapter 19, unless you count Jurgen vapourising the defeated, prone marines head as getting the kill rather than Cain sticking his chainsword into the berzerker through a hole in its armour which causes it to fall to the ground helpless in the first place. The Jurgen melta kill is from a separate fight earlier in the book.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Nope. Cain engages one, and does wound it. But it’s Jurgen’s Melta which kills the Berzerker.

Nope. Cain kills a wounded berzerker with his chainsword. The melta kill is from a separate fight earlier in the book.

Yep, Cain dispatches a badly wounded and barely alive Berserker with his chainsword, which leads Beije to believe the inflated story about soloing one in hand-to-hand earlier in the books, where Beije himself was not present. That earlier one was the one Cain just distracted long enough for Jurgen to line up a melta shot.

If you want to be particularly pedantic, Cain fights the second one also only till he drops, and Jurgen gives him a final melta shot to the head to make sure. It's on p. 737 in the Omnibus.

So no transhuman dread for any of them though.

I know mad dok wants to turn this into “how a marine could kill 10000 guard” but he needs to address the issues being put to him rather than swerving them all the time.

Edit: no he doesn’t, I don’t know how I’ve dragged into this nonsense.

As how a marine could do it, easy, nuke them from orbit. Only way to be sure.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
One maybe tangential though regarding how Lasgun fire might still be dangerous for SM if enough of it hits:
The SM is clad in powerarmor, his bolter, bolterammunition, grenades, possible special weapons are NOT.

If 100 Lasgun shots hit a Space Marine some will likely hit any grenades he has at his body, as I assume they are not stored inside the powerarmor.
If they are stored inside the power armor, said armor has to open at some point in time to give him access to that.

I keep mentally getting back to this... Where do Marines store their ammo and grenades? I found a handfull of pics where the grenades can be seen fixed on their chest armor, but in most pics I found on my first click they were nowhere to be seen.
By the way: on the chest armor, where the blast would go right up their face is a really dumb way to keep them.

The point I'm getting at: when faced with power armor it seems to me aiming for their ammo and grenades seems to be a pretty good bet. I doubt that those grenades are sturdy enough to resist bolter or even lasgunfire.

Mag locked about their person, typically.

 Pyroalchi wrote:

I keep mentally getting back to this... Where do Marines store their ammo and grenades? I found a handfull of pics where the grenades can be seen fixed on their chest armor, but in most pics I found on my first click they were nowhere to be seen.
By the way: on the chest armor, where the blast would go right up their face is a really dumb way to keep them.

The point I'm getting at: when faced with power armor it seems to me aiming for their ammo and grenades seems to be a pretty good bet. I doubt that those grenades are sturdy enough to resist bolter or even lasgunfire.

Joke answer:
Nobody knows...not even the marines. Long ago, purely by accident, it was discovered that if a marine reached slightly behind his left hip with an empty hand, a full ammo clip would suddenly appear in his hand.

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
One maybe tangential though regarding how Lasgun fire might still be dangerous for SM if enough of it hits:
The SM is clad in powerarmor, his bolter, bolterammunition, grenades, possible special weapons are NOT.

If 100 Lasgun shots hit a Space Marine some will likely hit any grenades he has at his body, as I assume they are not stored inside the powerarmor.
If they are stored inside the power armor, said armor has to open at some point in time to give him access to that.

I keep mentally getting back to this... Where do Marines store their ammo and grenades? I found a handfull of pics where the grenades can be seen fixed on their chest armor, but in most pics I found on my first click they were nowhere to be seen.
By the way: on the chest armor, where the blast would go right up their face is a really dumb way to keep them.

The point I'm getting at: when faced with power armor it seems to me aiming for their ammo and grenades seems to be a pretty good bet. I doubt that those grenades are sturdy enough to resist bolter or even lasgunfire.

It's a particular failing of much of the art that marines lack a bunch of spare clips and nades. On the model it's easy enough to add some pouches and nades along the waist. But it's still rather spare for a soldier that is expected to act pretty independently in the field.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
One maybe tangential though regarding how Lasgun fire might still be dangerous for SM if enough of it hits:
The SM is clad in powerarmor, his bolter, bolterammunition, grenades, possible special weapons are NOT.

If 100 Lasgun shots hit a Space Marine some will likely hit any grenades he has at his body, as I assume they are not stored inside the powerarmor.
If they are stored inside the power armor, said armor has to open at some point in time to give him access to that.

I keep mentally getting back to this... Where do Marines store their ammo and grenades? I found a handfull of pics where the grenades can be seen fixed on their chest armor, but in most pics I found on my first click they were nowhere to be seen.
By the way: on the chest armor, where the blast would go right up their face is a really dumb way to keep them.

The point I'm getting at: when faced with power armor it seems to me aiming for their ammo and grenades seems to be a pretty good bet. I doubt that those grenades are sturdy enough to resist bolter or even lasgunfire.

It's a particular failing of much of the art that marines lack a bunch of spare clips and nades. On the model it's easy enough to add some pouches and nades along the waist. But it's still rather spare for a soldier that is expected to act pretty independently in the field.

I thought the reverse of this was true; they're most often expected to engage in short, highly-orchestrated actions.

Also thought there was an oft-referenced source about how much ammo/gear they generally tote (not a lot, but still more than you'd see on most models).

 Altruizine wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Ok, so we are accepting Dan Abnett as a verifiable source of the truth?

Then please tell me how the Snakes of Ithaca (by Dan Abnett) send a SINGLE battle brother to handle an entire Dark Eldar Raiding force? Or how the same brother was able to dive 2-3 miles down below the surface of the ocean, and hold his breath for over two hours? Or the same brother going naked into sub zero Antarctic climates, and lugging 1 ton blocks of ice around? Fighting 40k level Polar Space Bears bare handed?

You can either say all guardsmen are members of the most elite squad of elite soldiers in 40k IG lore, in which case you have to also accept that Space Marines are literal demi-gods, or you can realize that this is all bull dooky, and none of it matters.

I haven't read it, and you have widely-known reading comprehension/logic issues, so unfortunately your attempt at paraphrasing doesn't add much to the thread. Post excerpts.

Fezzik also likes to block people who prove him wrong; he can't handle it when he's shown to be full of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

And remember folks. At no point have I said Guard cannot kill a Marine. I am arguing how a Marine might go about fulfilling such a tall order of taking on 10,000 Guard single handed.

No. You have said that it's likely that a marine would be able to, which is farcical and deserves ridicule and criticism.

 Altruizine wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:

 Pyroalchi wrote:
One maybe tangential though regarding how Lasgun fire might still be dangerous for SM if enough of it hits:
The SM is clad in powerarmor, his bolter, bolterammunition, grenades, possible special weapons are NOT.

If 100 Lasgun shots hit a Space Marine some will likely hit any grenades he has at his body, as I assume they are not stored inside the powerarmor.
If they are stored inside the power armor, said armor has to open at some point in time to give him access to that.

I keep mentally getting back to this... Where do Marines store their ammo and grenades? I found a handfull of pics where the grenades can be seen fixed on their chest armor, but in most pics I found on my first click they were nowhere to be seen.
By the way: on the chest armor, where the blast would go right up their face is a really dumb way to keep them.

The point I'm getting at: when faced with power armor it seems to me aiming for their ammo and grenades seems to be a pretty good bet. I doubt that those grenades are sturdy enough to resist bolter or even lasgunfire.

It's a particular failing of much of the art that marines lack a bunch of spare clips and nades. On the model it's easy enough to add some pouches and nades along the waist. But it's still rather spare for a soldier that is expected to act pretty independently in the field.

I thought the reverse of this was true; they're most often expected to engage in short, highly-orchestrated actions.

Also thought there was an oft-referenced source about how much ammo/gear they generally tote (not a lot, but still more than you'd see on most models).

They do a various array of mission types. Certainly some of it is quick-hit-and-extract stuff. But for others they're expected to be deployed for a while and run guerilla sorts of missions against forces many times their number. (it's part of where they can take advantage of some of their biology, such as not needing sleep, and being able to eat almost anything biological.) You'd expect they'd be carrying a lot of ammo for that type of thing. They may have the ability to resupply via Pods however. You'd think since they're often expected to go up against much more numerous opponents, ammunition would be a key logistical issue.

As for the referenced source for ammo, I'm unfamiliar with it. Maybe we'll get luck and someone will post

The problem with resupplying by drop pod is that it can be intercepted, and if not then you are also painting a big "shoot me" target on the landing site.

Drop pod lands, space marines converge to restock their ammo, Earthshaker barrage obliterates the LZ, all marines at the LZ are dead and all ammo is lost.

Resupply from the air is really difficult, as the Germans learned on the Eastern front of WW2. Resupply from orbit? Even worse as if you can track the ship in orbit which is launching the supplies (which is not a difficult task), and you know the area that the marines are operating in, you know exactly what windows are open for them to be resupplied.