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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Finally a bonus Force Pack, for Battalion and above at 3 million.

And if we don't want duplicates, how does this help?

I do not understand your comment, please clarify.

 Orlanth wrote:
I do not understand your comment, please clarify.

There are 12 force packs. If you're at the pledge level that has all 12, what value prospects does adding a 13th give you?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I do not understand your comment, please clarify.

There are 12 force packs. If you're at the pledge level that has all 12, what value prospects does adding a 13th give you?

But there are 14 force packs?

@Overread - your points make total sense, and I’m just randomly twoodling thoughts at this point as it’s late and I should really go to bed.

I think your logic makes most sense if the campaigns were the other way around. Am I right in thinking that Clan Invasion released 21 new star and Lance packs? And that was against a much less sure backdrop of know.on demand.

Now that they know the demand better, and have proven themselves in Delivering something pretty stretchy, I wonder if they’ve pulled back too far into easy surety.

It might be they've just pulled back to retail instead of wholesale. Again a lot of KS have grown big by basically selling wholesale to customers. However this backfires at times and also can mean that the company just left money on the table

It can also glut the market and sap sales potential in the future.

A healthy company knows KS is a big cash injection, but they also really don't want to rely on that. A good KS for a long running product line generates a cash injection that allows a big investment; but doesn't mean that the next few years see vastly reduced sales as the company relies on those to keep their lights on.


Of course customers will argue and fight for everything they can get and in BIG campaigns you get more people who are "grabby/greedy" who will argue that they need more free things to make it worth backing.

Mature companies should realise that whilst they can agree and adjust things somewhat; they really should stand firm and not give in entirely. Otherwise they are just throwing money after a few when the masses are content.



I also think that we are seeing more KS who are playing it safer. They've had several years of increasing operating and shipping costs; unreliability in the whole system of supply and more. Those are huge things that leave many firms unwilling to make sharp discounts and leave themsleves with no safety net and reduced income and the risk that the KS could end up costing them.

Heck I've seen a few KS who survived only through seeking outside investment in excess of the KS to provide for the KS. Esp over the last few years. Those were often start-up firms who already spent most of the KS money on tooling and moulds and designs and such.



To have hit 3million so fast they've done things right. Could they offer more? Perhaps but if they offer too much it will bite them back and they don't need to bend over backwards. They will get a huge cash injection; a huge marketing boost; a huge boost in active player groups and all that will generate healthy long term sales for them ontop of the KS.

Two of the pluses I see is an earlier delivery than the Clan Invasion Kickstarter (they were still designing 'Mechs and deciding on ForcePacks - sorry if you wanted the Berserker that was announced for and then removed from the Clan Invasion Kickstarter - while the Kickstarter was live) and easier shipping (Loren Coleman has already stated that there will only be one wave for shipping).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Flinty wrote:
Well, they've got a couple of weeks to crash together something to encourage higher spending in the currently pledged bods.

They need to do something. Two of the things I would naturally add - the two map packs - are now free for a certain pledge level... so I have no reason to add funds.

They're not offering 'Mechs from boxed games as separate purchases... so I have no reason to add funds.

They're not offering the newer non-KS force packs as separate purchases... so I have no reason to add funds.

They're not doing T-shirts via the KS... so I have no reason to add funds.

Free fiction doesn't cut it, I'm afraid.

 frankelee wrote:
So not a snowball's chance in Hell that it makes it to Frosthaven levels.

Does that matter?

For those of us following the conversation, that was mentioned as an opening day comp. So... YEAH.

I think Catalyst have quite a success on their hands, but it's going to stall out Trudvang style, complete with people in the comment section shouting, "WE ARE BATTLETECH: MERCENARIES BY CATALYST GAMES!!!" I think when you've got an audience willing to throw an interest free loan at you, with a window of 2 to 4 years to get back to them, you don't screw that up by playing games. Play games at the table, not with your finances Loren. But that's just me.

 TalonZahn wrote:
Because I hate myself, I have been chatting all over, and have mentioned in multiple places that people in the U.S. can get any current non-Exclusive Forcepack for $15 to $26.

CGL is really going to need to move the marker. It's not worth DOUBLE the cost to get it 4 months earlier and so Randall Bills can "support local FLGS" by not undercutting them.

He gets his money either way, he just gets MORE if you use the KS.

Keep it up. The last thing we want is a veneer of complacency because Catalyst threw us a bone and begrudingly gave higher tier backers a few free mechs.
Yes it sounds ungrateful to want more after the 3 million mark stretchgoal reveal, but that is so far under what we should be getting.

 TalonZahn wrote:

GW Direct Order Only anyone?

Isn't it just. Yesterday I thought of the 4" mech and compared it in size and price to the new release IG Sentinel. Very similar in size, and identical in 'value'. $45 GW full price retail.
Keeping step with Games Workshop on model prices is not a good sign in my opinion.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
I do not understand your comment, please clarify.

There are 12 force packs. If you're at the pledge level that has all 12, what value prospects does adding a 13th give you?

There are IIRC 14 total. Even so unless you want a wall collection for some reason I suspect most backers, especially those in at Regiment will want duplicates. Also as the vehicle sets also have inherent duplication I do not see the logic behind your point.

I for one have long preplanned what packs I want and was waiting for the KS to show me the prices. This includes multiples of some packs and non of others. I don't think that will be unusual, in fact I think most backers will be lobsided buyers, buying the assets they like to play for the faction they want to collect.

 Flinty wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Considering they are heading toward $3Million I don't think they are hurting for funding right now

Agreed, but people are fickle. They have leveraged a great deal of community goodwill and excitement for the kick off, but once the euphoria fades, and the 28days start to tick by they need to avoid backers getting cold feet. Amd there is no further road map for people to get excited about. Regardless of whether or not they had already sorted all of the stretch goals, it gave something for people to get excited about. But now there is nothing to stretch for and the pledges are less generous than the previous campaign.

I am by no means an expert in retail, kickstarting or psychology, but surely there are a few red flags kicking in.

From observation, very few people back out of the project unless they suspect it is a scam.
Catalyst may be counting on keeping the lions share of what is already pledged,. people are yet to realise that there is no deal here, just paying well in advance for overpriced minis.

 Overread wrote:
For me red flags are companies that overpromise on extras and addons without any game plan or evident proof that they can do what they say they will.

A company not bending over backwards to shower you with free stuff is just, honestly, normal. If anything its a positive in my view because it says that they are playing it safe and want to stick to their deadlines and schedule and production investment plans.

False analogy. Companies not bending over backwards to offer free stuff are not doing so because they are retailers and you come into the door or onto their website.
We are backers, paying in advance and without the normal retail monetary safeguards.
Damn right we want a kickback.

 Overread wrote:

A company just showing extra stuff is a panic and a worry because it means they are increasing their costs but not their profits; that CAN mean that they hit payment issues, cashflow shortages and suffer because of the extended production time due to having so many customers and so much additional content and having so little profit overhead.

Some companies do overreach, Catalyst did as do a lot of miniatures companies. Archon offers way too many stretchgoals and got ito trouble with it. Catalyst didn't suffer for going double, they suffered insrtead because of the canon character brainfart and the massive logistical headache is caused.

Free stuff that is already intended for production is not a problem, it becomes a problem if you have to sculpt and produce it and find you need to include massive quantities of bonus boxsets which are inconvenient as a follow up retail product. This is what caused Archon problems. Double force packs is not the same. There is zero extra sculpting and tooling for free stuff that is additional copies of intended content. As these are plasdtic production runs are very cheap, it costs pennies to make the mechs, the cost are in tooling and change of production runs. Once a tool is in the press it costs marginally more to make 2000 Atlases than it costs to make 400.
Furthermore all production in a pledge campaign comes with the advance knowledge of how many of each item you need to make, and gives valid marketing data of which lines will retail well afterwards.

The campaigns that do well offer stretchgoals and incentives and make those stretchgoals reasonable.

Catalyst are trying to be wise and efficient but are instead going cheap and sleazy.
The first million in stretchgoals were 'unlocks' of product that was teased months ago and was long known to be in the project. It smacks of dishonesty to make those unlocks. Catalyst have already actioned the tooling; so cut the BS please.
I have a low opinion of market hype combo-d with bad deals on pricing. You feel like you are being rolled by a used car salesman and just being there makes you a sucker.
I could go for a company of Battalion pledge, I like my Battletech. But I would be too embarrassed with this campaign to turn up at a Con with a 'VIP' invite and be the guy (one of 40) who dumped $5K on 28 boxsets and a few gimics. And Catalyst are too cheap to even give you a full star of 4" Timber Wolves for doing so.

 Overread wrote:

I think some firms have a setup that realises that the "golden days" of KS offering so much so cheap have backlashes.
Retail stores dislike it greatly because customers come pre-loaded with super low price expectations; they also buy a glut in the KS and then nothing for retail. If the prices are closer to equal then yes there's less pressure to go for the KS, but people will to be first. However it means that stores aren't being undercut and the market isn't being flooded with cheap stuff as much (which can lurk around on ebay and such for ages).

The golden age is over because of increased occurrance of scams, and the fact that the economy is worse now than during and before Covid. It is especially bad now. Catalyst are unlucky to be launching now at the cusp of a banking collapse. They started a 28 day clock when the bank collapses are picking up steam and going international.


I do agree that with 29 days it can be a risk (many KS are now only 2 weeks long because that's basically fitting with the high first and last days and having less middle-row thinking and pulling out).
However they've nearly hit 3 million - they'd have to make some serious massive huge errors to see that drop dramatically (that or an outside influence like a global disaster)

I don’t really think it will drop much, but the question must be, how to entice some of the 3500 Company levels (where I am sitting at) to go to battalion?

Or how much is it useful for them to get half of the veterans to bump up to company for a quick 100k bump in revenue.

Don't forget a lot of people will not back until the last day to "see everything" and also because that's the day they get charged. Same for many upgrading. Many will drop a pledge and wander away and won't pay attention nor keep up until KS emails them in the last few days.

Plus don't forget the post-KS period. A lot of money can be gathered in then from people who don't have money today but who take the cheapest pledge and add later ;and those who are fully committed who are spent up now and add more later.

I just want to bravo Orlanth for that. A top quality summation of sense over nonsense.

 Orlanth wrote:
The first million in stretchgoals were 'unlocks' of product that was teased months ago and was long known to be in the project. It smacks of dishonesty to make those unlocks. Catalyst have already actioned the tooling; so cut the BS please.

Yeah I hate stretch goals like that. They remind me of those Achievements they put into video games that you get for completing the tutorial and the first level or acquiring your first weapon - things that are essentially unavoidable and are no more an "achievement" than loading the game.

You should post this (or a version of all that) to the KS comments. Just avoid uses of words like 'sleazy' because they'll just use that as an excuse to call you "toxic" and ignore what you're saying.

 Overread wrote:
Don't forget a lot of people will not back until the last day to "see everything" and also because that's the day they get charged.

They showed off almost everything prior to the KS starting. That's why the initial unlocks are so stupid. They're things that they were going to sell anyway and are already in production. There was no doubt to their existence. They're not something added to entice us to pledge. They're something that was already part of this from its inception.

A 4" Mad Cat that virtually no one cares about and some rando pins or patches for merc companies are not enough to get people on board. They have to start adding value.

 Orlanth wrote:
I for one have long preplanned what packs I want and was waiting for the KS to show me the prices. This includes multiples of some packs and non of others. I don't think that will be unusual, in fact I think most backers will be lobsided buyers, buying the assets they like to play for the faction they want to collect.

Yeah fair enough. I have a weird hang-up with duplicate unique miniatures - not just in BTech, I have a spare Cadian Sergeant and Flamer that a friend gave me over a decade ago and simply owning them drives me crazy... it's an OCD thing - so I hadn't really considered that someone would actual want multiples of a force pack. That and I already own sometimes up to 7 of each type of 'Mech already, and don't really need a 6th Hermes II or Clint.

 Overread wrote:

To have hit 3million so fast they've done things right.

Yes. For example, the Clan Invasion kickstarter, where backers were presented with the opportunity to get great value in exchange for their early support.

Tbh large parts of your posts read as bluster, my friend. Like I can see that you fancy yourself a kickstarterologist, and probably have a lot of experience with the platform and various campaigns of differing sizes and scopes... few of which seem to be relevant to this situation. As people have pointed out, CGL had all of the (most important) products ready to go for this KS. They don't actually need any funding. If Kickstarter, the company, had gone bankrupt on March 20, Catalyst's product line over the next few years would likely be unchanged, other than that some releases would trickle out instead of launching at the same time.

@Orlanth - Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.

I'm just upset, one of MANY, that the value just isn't there.

Hell, I don't even want double Forcepacks, I'd settle for KS Exclusives, alt sculpts, even .5 more Forcepacks, maps, big discounts on non-KS Add-ons, SOMETHING.... anything that adds value that isn't a cheap token or patch that gets tossed in a drawer or a digital (read once) E-Book.

If their *Big Sell* is that you get your toys at retail 4 months before everyone else, that's bad business.

Most of the people backing already have the vehicles, in metal, at home right now.

Many of them will just wait to get the packs for, up to 50%, less at retail and not have to pay for S&H, VAT, whatever else.

I want it to succeed, but not at the cost of the people pushing it.

Backlash is building and will continue to do so.

I'd like to be able to fill my own lances. A veritable nightmare, I know.

Maybe one day I'll be able to do it through IWM, but I need more Wasps, and Stingers in my life than I do heavier designs.

So at the moment double packs or not I'm going to stay at the company level, and add the limited run box. Maybe even create a second KS account to double dip on the big boxes if the buddies want to join.

M.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Was I dreaming or didn't we were told that mechs from TRO 3055 would be in this KS because I don't see any IS.

M.

The only thing I remember being told specifically is that the 1st generation IS Omnis wouldn't be included.

Not sure why. A plastic Sunder would be ace.

A pack with mechs like wasps and stingers with alternate poses would be nice. Imagine a box with a Valkyrie with alternate pose, 2x wasp and 2x stinger. Valkyrie was like the conventional baseline light mech of the AFFC, need more of that one!

Phoenix Hawk, Stinger, double Locust. I'd buy that in a heartbeat.

M.

Latest spreadsheet I've seen shows that the $275 level gives the best minis per dollar and it's actually worse if you go up a tier.

Always a moving target though, so... we'll see.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The only thing I remember being told specifically is that the 1st generation IS Omnis wouldn't be included.

Not sure why. A plastic Sunder would be ace.

I see some 3055 mechs, but in the named merc units.

M.

 TalonZahn wrote:

Most of the people backing already have the vehicles, in metal, at home right now.

Just picking one part of that as I am keen to find out why you think this?

Consdiering the groundswell of players that have come from the past kickstarter, what makes you think that the majoirty of people have these vehicles in metal?

I am basing it on my local situation but majority are new players who are keen for the opportunities to build up for the first time and are looking to see how it ends up.
Definitely will be looking at the value at the end and would always prefer more than less but wanted to see if I was missing anything specific that was known or if you were basing it on your own local experience as well where your opponents are long in the tooth grognards whith deep collections?

Yeah I'm not sure most people would have vast swathes of vehicles at home already.

I mean, I do, got close to 200 of the damned things, but I'm also crazy.

 Vain wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:

Most of the people backing already have the vehicles, in metal, at home right now.

Just picking one part of that as I am keen to find out why you think this?

Consdiering the groundswell of players that have come from the past kickstarter, what makes you think that the majoirty of people have these vehicles in metal?

I am basing it on my local situation but majority are new players who are keen for the opportunities to build up for the first time and are looking to see how it ends up.
Definitely will be looking at the value at the end and would always prefer more than less but wanted to see if I was missing anything specific that was known or if you were basing it on your own local experience as well where your opponents are long in the tooth grognards whith deep collections?

I have no local situation anymore, lol

However, I would base it off a few things;

Vehicles aren't new, they have been around forever in metal and are still widely available from new to used.

BT has a secondhand market that rivals GW secondhand and it's more centralized.

Battletech is FAR more friendly to proxies and 3d printing.

The amount of new fans (since the last KS) is probably outnumbered 2 to 1 by long time players. Sure, I pulled that out my ass, but who do you think carried the last KS? Long time fans/players.

I'm a psycho like HBMC and have triple digit numbers of BT vehicles.

 TalonZahn wrote:
@Orlanth - Can't tell if that's sarcasm or not.

The 'keep it up'. No, not sarcasm at all. People are commenting here that you are making Catalyst uncomfortable with home truths on their stingy stretchgoals there. I consider that good work.
If we are to get any value out of this we will have to out-type the fanbois. This may be a thankless task.
Catalyst are replying to every fawning message in the comments section and it is reinforcing them. If these same people were aware they are talking themselves out of free stuff they might actually stop.

 TalonZahn wrote:

I'm just upset, one of MANY, that the value just isn't there.

Me too.

 TalonZahn wrote:

Hell, I don't even want double Forcepacks, I'd settle for KS Exclusives, alt sculpts, even .5 more Forcepacks, maps, big discounts on non-KS Add-ons, SOMETHING.... anything that adds value that isn't a cheap token or patch that gets tossed in a drawer or a digital (read once) E-Book.

I think Catalyst are looking for a fast turn around this time. They have already done all the sculpts, in Clan Invasion they added mechs on the fly and sculpted them later. They have pre-loaded everything, with some fake unlocks to parse it out, for fifteen minutes. It is amateur and greedy in equal measure.
Point being they will not want any extra work like new sculpts. Now I am not accusing Catalyst of being lazy here, instead I think they want to presell us out mechs, shovel out a little bit of tat and as much digital tat as possible to give the illusion of a deal.
The good news is that we will not have to wait anything as long as Clan Invasion, which better for us and better for them, but we are unlikely to get actual genuine stretchgoals.

Nowe I could be wrong, its sales (I cant really call therm pledges at this point) soar they might make production promises add new stuff and make us actual backers rather than retail customers without the rights.

 TalonZahn wrote:

If their *Big Sell* is that you get your toys at retail 4 months before everyone else, that's bad business.

With double tax and no retail discount.

 TalonZahn wrote:

Most of the people backing already have the vehicles, in metal, at home right now.

To be fair the vehicles are the big draw, and it is nice to see Catalyst not being entirely mech focused.

 TalonZahn wrote:

Backlash is building and will continue to do so.

Again keep it up.

My strategy is to make a few comments here for now, which is fuelling ideas for others to copy paste and arguments to bolster existing complaints.

I commented once early in the day and again once when the only forcepack freebie was announced. I dont want to over do it right now. The problem with Kickstarter is the forums is deliberately flat so it acts only as a peanut gallery. If you want to get Catalyst to listen post on the CBT forums. I will be doing this later.

I already have posted my slogan 'double or nothing'. I am of the opinion that pricing is so uncompetitive that unless double force packs are agreed there is no point in making any pledge higher than Veteran or at most Company. I want to give it a week so the comments section is quieter so people actually get to read comments.
I will not encourage people to cancel pledges, Catalyst don't deserve that, but if enough people threaten to downgrade unless backers get a better deal that retail we might get Catalyst to listen,
The clincher here is to separate backing from retail, too many people think it is the same. It is not. Kickstarter is itself clear on this at every pledge confirmation. There are risks there are reduced consumer rights, so there must be genuine compensatory benefits, and receipt of product four months early just doesn't cut it.

I backed quickly due to how excited I was, and then fairly soon after realized the value is not there. I am not giving them a loan for 14 months at full MSRP when the stuff is coming to retail anyway. Not a chance.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah I'm not sure most people would have vast swathes of vehicles at home already.

I mean, I do, got close to 200 of the damned things, but I'm also crazy.

But if you end up with a second Ostscout, but only tell yourself need one, you get a sudden twitch and cant sleep for weeks?

We all get some form of hobby OCD, for me its making sure I have every paint in a set. I get a tad angsty when GW increase their range, it means more paints in colours I likely will never use.

That being said I have an impressive collection of SRM carriers. My local clan player believes Clan ERPPCs with targeting computers are fair but strongly dislikes my SRM60. He loves his Warhawk Prime and Blood Asp A too much, so I played in cities with Hetzers and SRM carriers lurking behind hi-rises. Backed up with LRM carriers with Thunder. He has kittens over this, so I bought another twelve.

Find one I could grab before I lost it again....

I put in a pledge. But unless something changes drastically I plan to cancel in the last two days.

Currently this KS works out for Catalyst. Who make more than retail on product they would normally sell to distributors who then sell it to the retailer, who then sell it to the customers and everyone makes a profit along the way. Added to that they are getting the money a year and half in advance... And lets not even talk about shipping. Which most of us wouldn't pay because we would purchase at a local store, or hit the free shipping threshold from an online discounter.

The excuse is that they don't want to hurt local stores? Looks more like wanting to pad their pockets to me.

 Ghaz wrote:
Two of the pluses I see is an earlier delivery than the Clan Invasion Kickstarter (they were still designing 'Mechs and deciding on ForcePacks - sorry if you wanted the Berserker that was announced for and then removed from the Clan Invasion Kickstarter - while the Kickstarter was live) and easier shipping (Loren Coleman has already stated that there will only be one wave for shipping).

Aww man I love the Berserker and had hoped it would have been announced later in this campaign. I didn't know it was pulled from the Clan Invasion KS.

“if you are asking yourself why is the value of the ForcePacks basically MSRP, if you don't care about the swag, that is by design. If you wish to wait and purchase them from your local game store, awesome.”

From the KS FAQ,

The clincher here is to separate backing from retail, too many people think it is the same. It is not. Kickstarter is itself clear on this at every pledge confirmation. There are risks there are reduced consumer rights, so there must be genuine compensatory benefits, and receipt of product four months early just doesn't cut it.

Four months and costing extra.