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Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
I agree, let's get back to the more reasonable, provable claims like, "Discounters are parasites who are ruining the hobby" versus "Free market capitalism is working as intended, actually."

Yes, let's. And let's start with an example we can all agree on: ticket scalpers. They use bots to buy out an entire venue within seconds of tickets going on sale, faster than any human can possibly get a ticket, and then immediately put their tickets up for sale at a higher price. So:

Ticket scalpers take a product with limited availablilty and leverage that to sell way above the intended retail price.
Online retailers selling paints & models take a fraction of the available stock for a product and sell it below the intended retail price.

I'm not defending GW on this but I read a news article that stated that the UK government has massively increased tax on companies that use warehouse space.

Amazon, for example, will be paying 144% more tax on warehousing than last year.

With GW opening their huge distribution hub, in partnership with Amazon, this might be putting the squeeze on them a bit. Although we don't know what tax on warehousing they paid last year, so it might sound like a huge leap but might not be in reality.

Link here: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/17/uk-warehouse-operators-criticise-business-rates-tax-rise

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:


Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.

Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?

deano2099 wrote:

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:


Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.

Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?

Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:


Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.

Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?

Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?

So, you're saying there's value in a customer being able to get a product cheaper?

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
Now let's play:
ARE.
THEY.
PARASITES?

Good question. If GW allowed you to buy direct from them at the price they sell to retail stores at would you ever buy anything from the online discount seller?
I won't comment on the non-GW stuff because I don't play those games and have no idea what the community or retail situation is with them.

Being quite honest, if I couldn't get a substantial discount on GW stuff, I would not buy any of it. Aussie prices, baby! The discount is the only reason I'm willing to buy any of it.
And yes, I can afford it. I can whale all day and all night if I want to. I don't need to save for an extra week. For me it's the value proposition. Even with discounts there's enough stuff priced at whai I can only call "feth that for a joke!" levels.

If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of. I've been purchasing all manner of minis and board games and the odd bit of GW from the one place for over 10 years now and have good service and "know" the owner pretty well for an email relationship. One is seeing if they can get the new WHQ expansion in for me right now even though there really won't be a discount from GW mail order. The other I've been buying from again after the recent owners took over in the last year or two.

I don't play in stores anyway, so "pay where you play" is meaningless to me these days (though when I did play in stores, I supported them with my purchases).

Oh, you didn't answer the question as to whether this pair of longstanding retailers that have retail space and online discounts but don't offer instore gaming are "parasites". I'm still wanting to know.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:


Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.

Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?

Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?

But you are the one claiming cheaper price isn't relevant! After all if you can afford to pay for MSRP you can afford scalper price. Either cheaper price is or isn't relevant. You keep claiming it's not. Except now it mystically is...

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:
I agree, let's get back to the more reasonable, provable claims like, "Discounters are parasites who are ruining the hobby" versus "Free market capitalism is working as intended, actually."

Yes, let's. And let's start with an example we can all agree on: ticket scalpers. They use bots to buy out an entire venue within seconds of tickets going on sale, faster than any human can possibly get a ticket, and then immediately put their tickets up for sale at a higher price. So:

Is this legal? Depending on your jurisdiction, yes.

Is it a rational thing to do in a free market? Yes, the scalper is clearly making a profit and has incentive to continue doing so.

Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.

Do artists/sports teams/etc have an incentive to get rid of scalpers? Yes. They make tickets less accessible to real fans, create frustration and anger that is often directed at the artist/team/etc or venue rather than the scalper, and they'd be perfectly happy with a bunch of half-empty venues as long as the half of the tickets they did sell were at a high enough price to make them a net profit. And that's why at least some sellers are making an effort to limit the scalpers and ensure that more tickets go to legitimate fans who want to attend the event.

Is pointing out that the scalpers are acting as rational sellers in a free market and doing nothing illegal a compelling argument? No.

Are you aware 40k also has a scalping problem - and Games Workshop actually went out of their way to try and combat it several times, by making a limit of orders per account/address, by making re-runs of desirable boxes as Made-To-Order, and giving pretty much all new box sets since Indomitus a guarantee that if ordered within the preorder timeframe, they WILL make enough for every paying customers to get one, and that they did all of that because it was bad for their business and bad for their profits?

Now, with that in mind, have you considered the simple fact that Games Workshop offers their full support to online stores, might be evidence they might NOT be parasites?

tneva82 wrote:
But you are the one claiming cheaper price isn't relevant! After all if you can afford to pay for MSRP you can afford scalper price.

I never said that price isn't relevant. I said that affordability is not determined by price differences on this scale. I can absolutely afford to pay $500 for a basic marine squad instead of $50 but I sure as hell don't want to and would probably refuse to buy at that point.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

deano2099 wrote:

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:


Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.

Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?

Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?

But I thought...

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

If you can afford something at 80% of MSRP you can afford it at 100% of MSRP by saving up for a bit longer.

 Azazelx wrote:
[If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of.

That's not the comparison I was asking about. I was asking if you'd still buy from the online retailer if GW let you buy direct from GW at wholesale prices. At the price the online discounter buys their inventory at, not at the price they sell to you at. Does the discount seller add any value by having your purchase briefly pass through their warehouse on its way to you or would you gladly bypass them entirely and buy direct from GW if GW allowed you to eliminate the middle man?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TauEmissary wrote:
But I thought...

Then think again. Affordability =/= desire to buy at that price. I can afford a great many things that I choose not to buy because they are not an appealing value.

StraightSilver wrote:
I'm not defending GW on this but I read a news article that stated that the UK government has massively increased tax on companies that use warehouse space.

Amazon, for example, will be paying 144% more tax on warehousing than last year.

With GW opening their huge distribution hub, in partnership with Amazon, this might be putting the squeeze on them a bit. Although we don't know what tax on warehousing they paid last year, so it might sound like a huge leap but might not be in reality.

I think the gripe is mainly that they're passing this cost on to independents. I don't remember the numbers, but if GW make half their money through independents and half through their own sales channels, they could raise prices roughly 2.5% to the customer and likely take a hit on sales volume, or 5% to the independent retailer while keeping RRP to hopefully keep the same sales but reduce the income of independents, GW have done the latter.

We'll have to see the annual reports I guess, but aren't GW still making a killing? Or has it dried up post-lockdowns?

Someone earlier mentioned that we're in a recession so expect prices to go up, but hobby spending often goes up in a recession as more expensive ways to spend your time become impractical, so if hobby sales volume goes up it can be a good idea to work to keep prices competitive to take a bigger chunk of the market.

 McDougall Designs wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).

Loss of sales is near total. You retain some loyal customers out of habit and you retain any walk in customer if you have a brick and mortar store. However nearly all online sales go to the storefront that has the lowest price after P&P.

Of course. For those online retailers.

In general there are ways of sustaining profitability - thinking of GW product in this instance - for B&M locations who are not reliant on shifting piles of stock.

Its very tough at the moment. 5%+ on top of other rising costs maybe the straw that broke the camels back.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote:
Our local game club has rooms in our LGS. While the club pays some money for rent, we are still dependent on the existence of the store for the club to exist, mostly because rent is so high in german cities that it is barely affordable to get club space rented anywhere else. Since Corona many customers stayed away, people got used to buy stuff online because the shops were closed for a long time. GW lowering the profit on boxes for retail makes this situation even worse. Current inflation is just adding up to the issue.

So yeah, this new money grab by GW hits my mood hard.

Discounters have lowered the profit expectation for independent sector for the last decade or so.

GW CAN and SHOULD be offering more in the way of marketing and support for B&M stores with gaming space.

Can you clarify something for me?

You seem to be against online retailers or discount online retailers. May I ask why?

I am not against online retail or discount online retailers.

Its a good model to have and if its sustainable more power to you.

However its realistic to say that discounting on GW product has a knock on effect in terms of price expectation. (obviously part and parcel of business). This expectation can be seen as a GW problem which it really isnt. Its solely on the independent sector.

5% on top of trade pricing isn't really an issue. 5% on top of rising costs all round is an issue if market forces already mean that your profit on a product line is already cut.
(And thats just business).

I'm trying to be dispassionate. Its not positive or negative it just is.

And if you speak to scalpers, they'll use the same argument you are. They're providing a "service" - they're making sure that people who can't be online to get a ticket when they go on sale, or who try and miss out, can still get a ticket.
They provide a service for those for whom money is no object to skip the queue.
It's a nonsense, of course, and they are indeed parasites.

But essentially the argument here boils down to the fact that you see no value in money when it comes it GW stuff. Which is fine. But most of us do. For many of us it's a key factor.

Where you're not wrong is that there is potential for, if it's not balanced properly, discounters to do long term damage to the product. And that's also where I think at least I differ from you because: I don't care. If GW go into a "death spiral" so what? The games we have will still exist. They won't be supported by stores any more so there won't be a community or somewhere to go play? Again, don't care, we're not using stores in the first place, that's why we're buying from discount retailers.
There won't be any new releases? Doesn't matter. There will be other games. There are lots of games. I'm really not bothered.

I'd urge you to look at this from the perspective of someone who:
1) plays at home
2) plays with an existing group/partner
3) isn't so attached to 40K/AoS that they'd be actively upset if it went away
4) buys online

Then ask yourself who that group might consider the "parasites".
The reality is lots of us don't value the stores and the community, you do.
The reality is you don't value money, many of us do.
There's no parasites here, just different values and people wanting to pay for the services that have value to them.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
[If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of.

That's not the comparison I was asking about. I was asking if you'd still buy from the online retailer if GW let you buy direct from GW at wholesale prices. At the price the online discounter buys their inventory at, not at the price they sell to you at. Does the discount seller add any value by having your purchase briefly pass through their warehouse on its way to you or would you gladly bypass them entirely and buy direct from GW if GW allowed you to eliminate the middle man?

Actually, you don't get to change the question.

I asked you if either of these stores are "parasites".

The B&M retailer that's been around since the mid-80s or earlier. Long before GW had an actual presence in the country (and doing mail order back in the days of printed catalogues), and the B&M retailer that's been around as an online AND B&M retailer since at least 2009 (I checked) - no idea how long they were around in a physical sense before that.

You can ask me additional questions after you answer that one.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

Then think again. Affordability =/= desire to buy at that price. I can afford a great many things that I choose not to buy because they are not an appealing value.

Okay. And most of us choose to buy stuff at 20% off but wouldn't choose to buy it at full price, or would buy much less. Therefore the discounters offer value to us.

deano2099 wrote:
The games we have will still exist.

Until the current NIB inventory runs out and you're stuck buying ebay salvage if you ever want to add to your collection. And that's going to be horrible for the ability to get new people into a game. Maybe shortages aren't a big deal if you already have everything you want but "yeah, this used to be a cool hobby where you could make your own armies but now all you can do is buy someone else's scraps on ebay and hope nothing is broken too badly" is not a sales pitch many people will find attractive.

But I do agree that if you consider things from the point of view of someone who isn't attached to 40k/AoS and won't care if the games die then sacrificing the long-term existence of the game for 10% off this week's purchases is a great trade.

Charax wrote:
Damn you for making me give Discourse Minis a click.

To be fair she thinks any piece of news or new release signals the imminent demise of GW or a sign they're doing something evil.

Not sure a 5.8% increase in trade prices is going to CRUSH local games stores, but it will almost certainly reduce the discounts online retailers can provide, so get your orders in before the 19th.

Very True. Talk about the women that cried wolf....

To be fair, for someones whose whole business is founded on Gw related business. It would be Ironic that hers would be wiped out if GW fell even though she is always calling for it!

But I guess haters are going to hate!

Maybe if Games Workshop didn't charge you over a hundred dollars for five Marines in certain parts of the world, it wouldn't be so comically easy to undercut their prices.

 Azazelx wrote:
I asked you if either of these stores are "parasites".

Given what you have said about them, no. They have physical retail stores and can't just undercut other physical retail stores by eliminating all of the costs of running a store. But those aren't really representative of online discount sellers. When most people talk about discount sellers it's a store with a "physical retail store" that is a warehouse in the cheapest industrial park near Memphis and they're effectively just dropshipping everything to you after taking their cut of the profit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TauEmissary wrote:
Maybe if Games Workshop didn't charge you over a hundred dollars for five Marines in certain parts of the world, it wouldn't be so comically easy to undercut their prices.

Discount sellers undercutting GW direct is not the problem. Discount sellers undercutting non-GW retail stores is the problem because those retail stores are vital to the long-term health of the hobby and they can't match the prices of an online store with much lower expenses than a real store. What GW sets as MSRP is irrelevant in that comparison.

Have you ever thought about the fact Games Workshop, which famously hates everyone possibly undercutting their yearly profit by the tiniest margin, has literally no problem with discount online stores?

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
The games we have will still exist.

Until the current NIB inventory runs out and you're stuck buying ebay salvage if you ever want to add to your collection. And that's going to be horrible for the ability to get new people into a game. Maybe shortages aren't a big deal if you already have everything you want but "yeah, this used to be a cool hobby where you could make your own armies but now all you can do is buy someone else's scraps on ebay and hope nothing is broken too badly" is not a sales pitch many people will find attractive.

But I do agree that if you consider things from the point of view of someone who isn't attached to 40k/AoS and won't care if the games die then sacrificing the long-term existence of the game for 10% off this week's purchases is a great trade.

I have zero interest in "getting new people into a game" - if I want to get people into gaming, I'll use one of the 300 or so board games I have that are more suited to their preferences. I buy GW stuff because I like painting it, playing Underworlds, and having the occasional game of the larger system. Those systems are not good enough from a rules perspective for me to really care if they stop iterating on them.

All things end, hobbies change and go away, new ones turn up. My other main hobby these days didn't even exist ten years ago. Life goes on. The long term health of a single company in a single hobby space is indeed, of less interest to me than 20% off.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
[If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of.

That's not the comparison I was asking about. I was asking if you'd still buy from the online retailer if GW let you buy direct from GW at wholesale prices. At the price the online discounter buys their inventory at, not at the price they sell to you at. Does the discount seller add any value by having your purchase briefly pass through their warehouse on its way to you or would you gladly bypass them entirely and buy direct from GW if GW allowed you to eliminate the middle man?

This illustrates your fundemental misunderstanding of how businesses work, because there's no plausible scenario where GW ever offers wholesale prices to end customers. These are available because three factors involved are valuable to GW:

1) GW can bulk ship to retailers, which is substantially cheaper than posting individidual boxes & paints to end customers.
2) Retailers effectively subsidise GW's warehousing costs. If ~50% of sales are being made through the B2B channel then GW needs to pay for up to half the warehouse capacity it would otherwise to maintain stock.
3) Retailers also take on risks involved in slow-moving inventory. Once they've bought product from GW it's their problem, and if it ends up not selling for months or years it's the retailer that loses out, not GW.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

I see we're at the point where "I don't understand the concept of establishing agreement on a simple case before proceeding to the case being discussed" is considered acceptable grounds for you to make rude and inappropriate comments towards me? Do the forum rules not apply to you?

You can claim the high ground once you've retracted and apologised to McDougall Designs for calling them a parasite.

 xttz wrote:
This illustrates your fundemental misunderstanding of how businesses work

This illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding of how hypothetical scenarios work. "What if this happened" is not the same as "this is something you should do".

You can claim the high ground once you've retracted and apologised to McDougall Designs for calling them a parasite.

Last time I checked they aren't a dropshipper-in-all-but-name GW discount seller so no, I did not call them any such thing.

Who'da thought this thread would somehow get more interesting with Alty losing his mind over phantom sockpuppets (he does have an active imagination after all...) and trying to fight Orlanth like he'd insulted the guy's mother!

And then, finally, Azazelx jumping in to make things even clearer for our parasite-accusing Emmissary.

We just need Azreal13 to come back into the thread for the coup de grace.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
This illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding of how hypothetical scenarios work. "What if this happened" is not the same as "this is something you should do".

Who gives a damn about hypothetical scenarios? No one has to answer any thing you posit when it comes from a grounding of fantasy and weird outrage at normal business-related practices.

We have actual facts and reality here, and you're the one who called people parasites with nothing to back it up.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:
What GW sets as MSRP is irrelevant in that comparison.

but GWs margin for retailers is
and if GW is increasing the margin which makes operating the stores more difficult

the problem is not that online-only stores can operate cheaper but that GW makes operating B&M stores more difficult

saying the problem is not GW but the stores selling at a discount is the same as the BOLS article claiming that it is the players fault, who try to compensate GW's mistakes and keep the game running, and not GW making mistakes in the first place

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
We have actual facts and reality here, and you're the one who called people parasites with nothing to back it up.

This is a fascinating claim you are making here, to have "actual facts and reality" to prove something that is a matter of opinion: whether or not a business is a parasite. Can you explain how this works? Or are you just assuming that because you have said your opinion loudly and frequently that it becomes fact?

And I have backed up my reasons for that accusation over and over and over again. You may not like them but they are there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
the problem is not that online-only stores can operate cheaper but that GW makes operating B&M stores more difficult

But this price increase applies to both sellers and the closer everyone gets to MSRP the better. If the online seller is offering a 20% discount and the real store can only afford a 15% discount a 5% increase moves the new discounts to 15% and 10%. And the closer you get to "it's not worth buying online, I'll just buy it at full price locally" the more online discounters and their lack of value are pushed out of the market.

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

This illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding of how hypothetical scenarios work. "What if this happened" is not the same as "this is something you should do".

Okay, I'll play. If GW sold products direct to me at wholesale prices would I buy from discount retailers? No. I'd just buy direct.

My turn: if discount retailers gave you a free car with every order, would they be parasites then?

deano2099 wrote:
Okay, I'll play. If GW sold products direct to me at wholesale prices would I buy from discount retailers? No. I'd just buy direct.

So we are in agreement that the online discount seller is offering nothing of value whatsoever beyond allowing you to use their store account to order from GW? They provide no service to you other than forwarding your order to GW and having it sent to your house?

Gue'vesa Emissary wrote:

But this price increase applies to both sellers and the closer everyone gets to MSRP the better. If the online seller is offering a 20% discount and the real store can only afford a 15% discount a 5% increase moves the new discounts to 15% and 10%. And the closer you get to "it's not worth buying online, I'll just buy it at full price locally" the more online discounters and their lack of value are pushed out of the market.

But that will never happen for me, because to buy at full price "locally" will cost me the time and money of actually going to the store, whereas online I get it delivered to my door. So even if the prices were the same, I'd still be buying online. The only way I'd be buying in store is if it was actually cheaper, and even then, I'd pay a small premium to save myself the trip.