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They are also diving into Cathay this week talking about the design of them. My guess is they are dropping within the next few weeks.

 nathan2004 wrote:
They are also diving into Cathay this week talking about the design of them. My guess is they are dropping within the next few weeks.

But that would mean a hardcover army book valid for longer than 3 months before the next edition and that's not how GW does things

Maybe we get the new edition in autumn in form of a revised core book incorporating changes from the matched play book starting the army book cycle of the game

Heard some rumours that outnumber might be coming back, and/or close order res bonus only applies on US10+, and impact hits will happen before challenges.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just remembered I bought a near mint copy of the original WHQ earlier this year.

Not especially relevant to the convo, but eat my brag, suckers!

I still own everything released in the US for the game, purchased at the time, save the Wood Elf Wardancer booklet, the High Elf Ranger mini, and the orcs & goblins - all of which wandered off somewhere.

This would not stop me form purchasing a full reprint of the core box. Alas, such is more likely a dream, as from what I understand, it's not just the print masters for the tiles, but they also lost the layout masters of the rulebooks, too. Of course, I feel like modern technology is up to replacing everything from archival copies, but I doubt GW feels like putting in the effort to tap that particular well of nostalgia money.

Getting a bit OT here people, can we get back on track please.

Ok doke, and for a neat segue back on topic?

The Elf Prince from Quest was (is?) a made to order model in the High Elf range.

GW’s website is currently down so I can’t offer a link at present.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Really like the Cathy infantry and cavalry but the entire rest of the range leaves me cold.

The big statue chaps are bloody awesome.

I'm desperately trying to like the dragon, but the head (specficially the teeth) ruin it. It's got that horrible snaggle tooth look going on the old dark elf dragon had and it doesn't fit with the sleekness of the rest of it. The human form of it looks good however. Will have to try and get her on her own.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

It's not like they're going to release a bunch of 'Oriental' minis like they would have in the 80's. China is a big market, and everyone who wants to make money has to get their specific needs right. I didn't even think of it until they mentioned it, but the lack of skulls and such makes the Cathay stuff really stand out in a Warhammer setting. They look great!

I'm also interested in the bit they mention about having written an 8th Edition army list for Cathay so Creative Assembly had something to translate into Total War. Feels like we need some kind of Mission Impossible-style heist to retrieve that list now.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

They did not (that was mostly fan claims), but I was struck by this article's tone. I generally think it's great to try to be informed about design inspiration, and both acknowledge the source material as well as try to avoid some problematic elements, but it did seem like the article writer was falling over themselves to mention it in this instance. Particularly, the thing about avoiding gruesomeness read a little strangely to me - it's not like various eras of Chinese medieval history (and the Tang dynasty specifically) were strangers to spectacular gruesomeness. I think it's perfectly fine to point to the lack of that being physically represented in the models and art as a thing that makes Cathay distinctive from other human factions, but the stated reasoning seems a bit of a stretch. It could well be that Grand Cathay at this time is somewhat less morbid than the Empire (which, to be clear, is ALSO less morbid than it would come to be in the later era - Jordan Sorcery has a GREAT [tautological; Jordan's always great] interview with one of the Cublic 7 people where the latter talks about the difference in the sensibility of TOW and WFRP), which would be a neat point of distinction.

I did like the note about developing the Longma - if Warhammer just stuck to contemporary ideas of mythology it'd be less interesting, so I'm glad to see they're making efforts to adapt and change stuff as well.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

To me, it read more like, "We sold out to the Chinese government..."

The lack of skull gruesomeness is not particularly remarkable in WFB.

Dwarfs don't use them, Bretonnians don't use them (except that one dead questing knight being carried by pilgrims), high elves don't use them. Even wood elves have very little presence of that imagery (there's like a skull hanging from the harness of the wizard's stag).


Just like 40k, people get blinkers on about what the 'theme' or imagery of the setting is by ignoring everything except the Empire/Imperium.

Plenty of factions don't have anything like the same style.

Cathay is not unique in that regard.

 Hellebore wrote:
The lack of skull gruesomeness is not particularly remarkable in WFB.

Dwarfs don't use them, Bretonnians don't use them (except that one dead questing knight being carried by pilgrims), high elves don't use them. Even wood elves have very little presence of that imagery (there's like a skull hanging from the harness of the wizard's stag).


Just like 40k, people get blinkers on about what the 'theme' or imagery of the setting is by ignoring everything except the Empire/Imperium.

Plenty of factions don't have anything like the same style.

Cathay is not unique in that regard.

.

You are totally correct. I was thinking Empire and the general imagery of the setting thru the rulebooks and such, but other factions do have differing visual languages and themes.

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

To me, it read more like, "We sold out to the Chinese government..."

So what would you suggest they do instead?
Insist upon using imagery that would hurt their sales, or maybe other business dealings, there - when it's simple enough to just avoid such issues in the 1st place?
Not give us an interesting look at how/why they did what they did?

I might be alone on this, but I miss hand-sculpted minis.

Computer-generated minis are *technically* incredible. The detail is crisp, the fit of the parts is usually perfect. But they look like what they are: CGI made three-dimensional.

To me the new Cathay minis are exemplifying this. They have all the technical brilliance but it's a bit lifeless and lacking real character.

It just interesting how sensitive they are with Chinese folklore, a monster not being able to have abilities because the original doesn't have them while being careful to not mix up different cultures

But at the same time everything east of Germany is russian and all different creatures from folklore are ignored to be replaced by modern russian bears

So yes if GW wants a step into a new market and expect high sales they are very sensitive and careful while if they don't they just throw any know stereotype in and call it a day

ccs wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

To me, it read more like, "We sold out to the Chinese government..."

So what would you suggest they do instead?
Insist upon using imagery that would hurt their sales, or maybe other business dealings, there - when it's simple enough to just avoid such issues in the 1st place?
Not give us an interesting look at how/why they did what they did?

I'm not sure there would've been a better option. Yes, I'm all for trying to avoid cultural insensitivity, and I was pleased they decided to tone down some other problematic product lines (such as reducing the 'sexiness' of Battle Sisters). I just read between the lines and it felt like they were more worried about crossing the CCP than the general Chinese public.

 Return_to_Bretonnia wrote:
I might be alone on this, but I miss hand-sculpted minis.

Computer-generated minis are *technically* incredible. The detail is crisp, the fit of the parts is usually perfect. But they look like what they are: CGI made three-dimensional.

To me the new Cathay minis are exemplifying this. They have all the technical brilliance but it's a bit lifeless and lacking real character.

You are not alone. It's very rare to see modern minis with the same "soul" as the old hand sculpted stuff by Kev Adams, The Perrys, Colin Dixon and all the rest. The new plastics are obviously superior in most other ways. But I think it's a real shame that you can no longer tell who designed a mini just by looking at it like you can with some of the older stuff.

The people who design the modern stuff are super talented so I think it would be fun If they would be allowed to personalize their work but I guess that's not how things are done anymore, propably bad for business or something.

It reminds me of when The Simpsons went from hand drawn to computer drawn. The exactly correct lines, the lost texture of imperfections in physical ink and paint, it was sterile, and also oddly "cheaper" somehow. And when you are making armor pieces that feature a ton of cloning and perfectly computer shaped helmets and such, it really amplifies it. But I can always paint my stuff, and it won't look perfect anymore after that.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

The problem I have with Cathay at the moment is that it's just too 'clean' and wonderful. In that respect they're very much like Tau 3e. There's not really enough grit, hidden intrigue, hints of abuse of power by the dragons, hints of decay within it's society. I want opium den equivalents run by Jade Blooded Vampires, elements of a repressive police state poking through the cracks run on the basis of the greater good, I want a callous disregard to individual tragedy and the numbers of dead in great battles/social ructions, I want serious intermittant factionalism between the dragon children, I want hints at chauvanistic cultural superiority (China is just as bad as the West for this) etc etc. All we're getting is 'biggest empire in Warhammer, always have been, mighty culture' etc etc. I also really don't like them shoehorned into arriving at Marienburg and acting like it's because they were much more in contact with the Old World during the TOW period.

They mention deliberately avoiding the usage of skulls and other similar 'body horror' because of Chinese cultural views and that is indeed correct, the Chinese culture is much more offended by that stuff than Western culture is. However not having that grimdark is kinda missing a key aspect of the Warhammer aesthetic, even for instance the Brets who don't have many skulls present have some pretty ugly looking peasants to provide the grimdark. I guess you could argue that the High Elves are fairly light and bright. There's also next to no satire of Chinese culture, it's obvious they're avoiding it because they don't want to be called racist but again it's missing that element of 'Warhammerness'. Bretonnia is basically an over the top satire of Western Medieval European cultures with plenty of tongue in cheek French bashing, the Empire is a satire of the mess that was the Holy Roman Empire and Europe's propensity to fight itself rather than focusing on other threats, the High Elves have more than a hint of British exceptionalism, the Dark Elves are slave trading nation in the North American equivalent, while the Lizardmen being a non human society aren't particularly satirical Lustria is rife with satirical hints.

This being said, I'll be buying a load of Cathay stuff because I love the models and I want to support GW finally expanding the WHFB universe and releasing new factions. I just hope that they're darkened up a great deal in TOW2, they mostly got there in the end with Tau.

I’m 100% buying Cathay when they drop to give me 9 OW armies at that point lol.

I can't justify another army but I will be getting the dragon when I can!

 BorderCountess wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, design commentary on Cathay for your face holes.


https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/1ovkvf4r/old-world-almanack-building-the-celestial-empire-of-grand-cathay/

Maybe it's just me, but the article just reads like "we sold out to the Chinese market". Though in fairness I'd have to dig up the articles that followed the release of Tau and see if they used similar language.

To me, it read more like, "We sold out to the Chinese government..."

I see why folk might think that. But cultural and racial sensitivity matters, especially when you’re adapting historical forces to a fantasy setting.

Considers the many symbols that keep cropping up in different cultures, with different, non-universal meanings - some which now have near universal interpretations.

I’m aware Chinese culture goes back a looooooong time. But beyond that, and stuff I’ve seen in films, I don’t know all that much about it.

Yet, when I look at Bretonnia and The Empire, there are clear historical cues somewhat culturally sanitised and turned to fantasy. Probably because the folks behind their origin as keystone forces of Warhammer were familiar enough with the real history to adapt them so.

Why shouldn’t Cathay have that same knowledge applied to the same effect? Especially when Chinese myth and culture extends considerably beyond the present government’s origins.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But cultural and racial sensitivity matters, especially when you’re adapting historical forces to a fantasy setting.

First of all, it's fiction. Second, where was this deep attachment to cultural and racial sensitivity when GW was re-doing Kislev for CA?

 Overread wrote:
I can't justify another army but I will be getting the dragon when I can!

If all you're after is the dragon and not the human form, let me know and i'll take her off you.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Overread wrote:
I can't justify another army but I will be getting the dragon when I can!

If all you're after is the dragon and not the human form, let me know and i'll take her off you.

You might end up with a long wait - technically I kind of want another Soulblight dragon first - and other stuff and I'm supposed to save for a necromancer dragon from Creature Caster at some point - so yeah could be a while!

 His Master's Voice wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But cultural and racial sensitivity matters, especially when you’re adapting historical forces to a fantasy setting.

First of all, it's fiction. Second, where was this deep attachment to cultural and racial sensitivity when GW was re-doing Kislev for CA?

I mean, we're talking about a game where sub-saharan africans are represented by "savage Orcs" that in earlier models even had bones in their hair.
And native americans are dinosaurs and lizards.
So, in order to not make it too political best not overthink it. Maybe it helps if you take Cathay as a mix of different Chinese eras and cultures like Kislev does with west- and eastern slavs.