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Regarding the promo vid GW released, is it not clear that the setting for Cavill's show will be the Horus Heresy?

I'd argue to a degree GW is diluting the setting - but only because the lore isn't as thick as "when I was a child".

Partly this may be the problem of getting older and things lose their poetry. But, while I'd have to go and check, I seem to remember the older edition core rules (2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th?) had a mountain of "lore". This is the Imperium, it works like this etc. I think they kept this up to 5th.

Whereas from then on you still sort of have that - but it seems shallower, thinner. Its a copy of a copy and all that. Its less definitive. We see the confusion in how 8th wanted to take a big 100 year leap into the future - only for 9th to go "no, steady on, back where you were".

To do an odd parallel - the 4th WHFB edition High Elf Army Book had a history of the world. I don't want to praise it too much (although as a 10 year old or whatever it was excellent) - but it had something special. And subsequent army books essentially contained the same fluff - but told it in an abridged, worse sort of way. It grew thinner I guess. Turns of phrase were lost.

Take off the nostalgia goggles and you'll find that the "thick" aspect is just shifted.

You bring up the time-jump. I don't find it a dilution or somehow making the world shallower that they chose to ignore the "hundred years in the future" bit. It's not like it was actually accompanied by lore showing lots of progression spread out over many years.

Finding out that the change is because the Imperium has had the calendar wrong for a hundred years adds an element to the setting. It showcases the truly ridiculous bureaucracy that exists.

It's not like events are showcased from non-Imperial calendars anyways. We aren't shown things on an Orky Before Krumpin' or After Krumpin' calendar for the timeframe to give an example.

3rd ed Tyranid codex had only a few pages of lore - the current ones have a good meaty chunk. Though I have noticed a loss there, the latest codex have dropped the unit lore pages, which is a huge shame as I really loved reading a page or two about each unit in the game; what they did, what they were etc.... Esp when new things come along.

Tyel wrote:
I'd argue to a degree GW is diluting the setting - but only because the lore isn't as thick as "when I was a child".

Partly this may be the problem of getting older and things lose their poetry. But, while I'd have to go and check, I seem to remember the older edition core rules (2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th?) had a mountain of "lore". This is the Imperium, it works like this etc. I think they kept this up to 5th.

Whereas from then on you still sort of have that - but it seems shallower, thinner. Its a copy of a copy and all that. Its less definitive. We see the confusion in how 8th wanted to take a big 100 year leap into the future - only for 9th to go "no, steady on, back where you were".

To do an odd parallel - the 4th WHFB edition High Elf Army Book had a history of the world. I don't want to praise it too much (although as a 10 year old or whatever it was excellent) - but it had something special. And subsequent army books essentially contained the same fluff - but told it in an abridged, worse sort of way. It grew thinner I guess. Turns of phrase were lost.

Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.

I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.

If a 40k series is created with a NC-17 rating it would be watchable.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.

I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.

Well yes - but its because they stop moving forward.
So Votann is good - cos its new. Yes, Ancient Squat lore etc - but really, its stepping on ghosts from several decades.

Whereas looking at say Dark Eldar. I expect 10th edition will have the same fluff as 9th edition. Which was the same as 8th - except without the plot forward bits, cos we aren't moving forward 100 years now. Which meant it was basically 7th. Which was a worse version of 5th.

There's no obvious reason why "Dark Eldar lore" should have been put in stasis for 10 years. The same with everyone else. GW just seem to have lost confidence to move forward. Possibly because people are inevitably hostile. But I don't think its impossible - which is why I was in favour of the jump in 8th.

Tyel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.

I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.

Well yes - but its because they stop moving forward.
So Votann is good - cos its new. Yes, Ancient Squat lore etc - but really, its stepping on ghosts from several decades.

Whereas looking at say Dark Eldar. I expect 10th edition will have the same fluff as 9th edition. Which was the same as 8th - except without the plot forward bits, cos we aren't moving forward 100 years now. Which meant it was basically 7th. Which was a worse version of 5th.

There's no obvious reason why "Dark Eldar lore" should have been put in stasis for 10 years. The same with everyone else. GW just seem to have lost confidence to move forward. Possibly because people are inevitably hostile. But I don't think its impossible - which is why I was in favour of the jump in 8th.

Bits being stripped away with each edition in the Dark Eldar include special characters, whose backstory adds quite a bit to an otherwise generically evil force - Malys is mentioned in passing, but not in detail. The vorgani were only introduced in 8th edition, and have already been eliminated from 9th. Even Vect's rise to power has been trimemd down to bare bones, while two whole pages are devoted to a random warzone description. Pictures and descriptions of weapons have gone, the list goes on. As rule space grows in codexes, the background shrinks.

That’s not unique to the Dark Eldar Codex though.

I was disappointed when I first got Codex Necrons because I didn’t get juicy background on the plethora of new toys.

This is also why I can’t stand 3rd Edition. Sure 2nd Ed, like Rogue Trader before it grew into an unholy mess and needed a rules diet, but unlike 2nd Ed (which refined rules and background) 3rd Ed went entirely too far, churning out anaemic, flaccid rules devoid of any character, and all but stripped background out of the Codexes.

4th-8th had a much better balance, Codex wise. Particularly Dark Eldar circa 2010 when they finally got a new Codex and some actual, y’know, Background. Necrons too really, though their original 3rd/4th (can’t remember exactly which) Codex did have quite a lot for it’s era.

In fairness when GW stripped some of those Eldar Characters was the same time they stripped the Tyranid ones too - and a lot of that was because GW got into a habit of adding lots of new named characters and such and never making a model for them. That ended with Chapterhouse and whilst I disliked the loss of many things, I liked that it took away mandatory converting for people to get all the units in the book.

I like converting, but I don't think it should be a mandatory requirement to field your army.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
4th-8th had a much better balance, Codex wise. Particularly Dark Eldar circa 2010 when they finally got a new Codex and some actual, y’know, Background. Necrons too really, though their original 3rd/4th (can’t remember exactly which) Codex did have quite a lot for it’s era.

Those books had their own issues though, what with Jervis' insistence on including a "Wargear" section that ended up being half pages references to other parts of the book (thereby defeating the purpose of the wargear section), and rules that multiple units had being set on unit-specific pages. Some units had their rules in three different parts of a Codex. I think one in the Marine book may have even needed 4 different pages to get their full rules.

To be fair we've got that today too.


At least in 3rd ed most stuff was on the unit page, including the points cost and the costs for all the weapons and upgrades.

These days everything is on a chart somewhere else in the book.

callidusx3 wrote:
Regarding the promo vid GW released, is it not clear that the setting for Cavill's show will be the Horus Heresy?

That does look like a Heresy-era Imperial Eagle, has it ever been used in a context other than Heresy?

It's probably too early to say either way, but if that's the video they chose to make to announce it then it does point toward Heresy.

My first thought was "Oh, that's Custodes!", but no, that's a general Horus Heresy logo more than anything else.

I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.

I don't think I can overstate how much of a mistake I think them adapting the Horus Heresy would be. Speaking for myself, between the grotesquely bloated novel series, Adeptus Titanicus, and the 30k rules, I'm so goddamn sick of the Heresy, brother-on-brother drama between the Primarchs, and endless clashes between power-armored space marines. Which part of that sprawling mega-juggernaut of a story do people think could be adapted to film or television?

 Overread wrote:
How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?

The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.

I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.




Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!

It hasn't, from a fiscal perspective sure, but it's just one of those inevitable steps that all brands/franchises that began as a focused labour of love for a specific audience, that then end up becoming very popular take on the road to soulless consumer corporatism. It's an inevitability for basically anything that becomes popular, but it's still doesn't mean it's not sad.

I feel like a lot of things I talk about these days involve phrasing like 'money isn't everything'

Tyel wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.

I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.

Well yes - but its because they stop moving forward.
So Votann is good - cos its new. Yes, Ancient Squat lore etc - but really, its stepping on ghosts from several decades.

Whereas looking at say Dark Eldar. I expect 10th edition will have the same fluff as 9th edition. Which was the same as 8th - except without the plot forward bits, cos we aren't moving forward 100 years now. Which meant it was basically 7th. Which was a worse version of 5th.

There's no obvious reason why "Dark Eldar lore" should have been put in stasis for 10 years. The same with everyone else. GW just seem to have lost confidence to move forward. Possibly because people are inevitably hostile. But I don't think its impossible - which is why I was in favour of the jump in 8th.

Well 40k wasn't supposed to be story but setting for players to make out their own stories.

Then players decided they don't want to be creative and just have GW feed us for "evolving story". So we got cartoon level "story" where Abbadon sends his lietnaunt for same planet all the time getting kicked all the time "I'll get you next time!"

Because ultimately nothing dramatic CAN happen because sales of models can't be hurt.

Saturday cartoon hello, Because players decided they don't want to be creative and prefer saturday cartoon.

I guess it depends on your point of view.


I've seen a race of ancient murder robots arise from the ashes only to be discovered to be the ancient once masters of the Galaxy cursed with robotic form after waging war on the former near gods of the setting and on other entities calling themselves gods.

I've seen a race of plucky fishpeople arise on the fringe and, whilst shielded with mystery, they've managed to do what many have never managed too and carve out a chunk of the galaxy for themselves. Enough that each time their lore advances they are steadily gaining ground and understanding the Galaxy around them. Sure they still have to properly learn about Demons and they are still coming to terms with the fact that this insane group of humans, who call themselves the Imperium, really do own most of the Galaxy and really are half insane!

I've seen the Imperium nearly cut in two; Hive Fleets maul Space Marine home worlds including the much armoured Ultramarines; heck we are on the verge of the Eldar potentially shifting in narrative from a dying race who meddles but ultimately avoids major conflicts as much as they can; into one that's on fire and might well be the hallmarks of them pushing to gain territories and carve out a larger chunk of the Galaxy for themselves.




The narrative does move and shift and change. It just doesn't do the whole "And then the Imperium wiped out the Orks to the last Ork and the Orks were no more from then on". Many of the stories by BL show major events and dramatic moments; some that affect only a few characters, some whole sectors and divisions.
Sure there are many elements of the narrative that don't change, but that's because its a setting and backdrop.



As for the whole "players don't want to be creative". I think that's just silly. Especially at a time where we've seen projects multiple animations, stories, artwork, narrative games, themed armies and more. Heck we live in an age where GW has employed multiple creative people who were not just telling a story but doing so with some very good quality animation work. People pouring hour upon hour into such creations.
We live in an age where there is an insane amount of player created story and content. Sure GW creates more because not everyone is a skilled writer, painter or animator. And because we wanted more of the foundation that GW began. That's just people wanting more out of what they love

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.

I wasn't even thinking about the half decayed thing, I was just thinking that the imperial eagle with the upswept wings, the randomly longer feather on each wing, and 2 lightning bolts is a Great Crusade/Heresy era thing. I think that's what's referred to as the "palatine aquila" and is what the Emporer's Children wore.

But you're right, the half decayed version is actually in the AoD rulebook, it's on page 6.

You can see it at 7:50 in GMG's review of the AoD book...

https://youtu.be/Zn18EFRbYt0?t=470

I have no idea if either the stylised imperial eagle or the half decayed version of it has been used in any materials other than Heresy era stuff.

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:

But there are playing toy soldiers and playing toy soldiers. I dislike narratives that are based on crushing hope, especially for kids.

What are you doing into 40k then? There's not a whole lot of hope in that background, at best the Imperium survives to fight another day. 8e onwards has been even more gloomy, Indomitus Crusade aside and even that only restored some of the losses.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.

I wasn't even thinking about the half decayed thing, I was just thinking that the imperial eagle with the upswept wings, the randomly longer feather on each wing, and 2 lightning bolts is a Great Crusade/Heresy era thing. I think that's what's referred to as the "palatine aquila" and is what the Emporer's Children wore.

But you're right, the half decayed version is actually in the AoD rulebook, it's on page 6.

You can see it at 7:50 in GMG's review of the AoD book...

https://youtu.be/Zn18EFRbYt0?t=470

I have no idea if either the stylised imperial eagle or the half decayed version of it has been used in any materials other than Heresy era stuff.

But in the official announcements the project is clearly named „Warhammer 40,000“ and not Heresy or 30k. Of course this all might just point to them not yet knowing where exactly they will go, but I wouldn‘t assume a HH series just from the fancy aquila. Maybe it‘s just there because it somehow fits custodes, given that it’s Cavill we‘re talking about.

Are they just using "Warhammer 40,000" as a brand name to make it clear it's scifi Warhammer and not Fantasy?

I hope it's not Horus Heresy but who knows.

In my opinion the use of the Horus Heresy chicken doesn't have to mean full blown Heresy on screen. It's a time of legend in current 40k. Just think of all the movies about ancient civilizations and artifacts that get dug up and start a plot in the present. It could easily be something like that. It gives a chance for exposition on the setting to get new people up to speed on 40k and a few grand scale battle scenes for eye candy without committing to translating the mountain of Heresy novels to the screen.

 Overread wrote:
I've not really seen any harm with the merch.

Are you really so quick to forget that time when the plumbing in Nottingham exploded? That was GW HQ mass trialing the Warhammer branded hot sauce. And you claim no harm was done!

 Grumpy Gnome wrote:
And between GW game shops targeting 12 years and teen focused coming of age adventure novels I do wonder if GW has forgotten that 40k is supposed to be satirical.

Time for this old man to yell at clouds, but yeah, I think GW actually did forget. I don't think what satire survived into the grimdarkening of 3rd ed lived long enough to find itself in the comic book super hero driven world that started to take shape around 5th ed.

I don't think satirical 40k exists outside of a few marketing efforts anymore. These days the push is for a setting in which super heroic characters duke it out all serious like, at least in intention.

I wouldn't expect a cinematic universe to deviate from that standard. In fact I argued before that 40k has shifted into the character driven narrative suspiciously close in time to when the Marvel movies really took off. It's still 40k, so maybe the Marvel humor won't be there, but gravity surrounding super heroic character action? Yeah, I think that's where a live action 40k effort will be headed.

TheGoodGerman wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.

I wasn't even thinking about the half decayed thing, I was just thinking that the imperial eagle with the upswept wings, the randomly longer feather on each wing, and 2 lightning bolts is a Great Crusade/Heresy era thing. I think that's what's referred to as the "palatine aquila" and is what the Emporer's Children wore.

But you're right, the half decayed version is actually in the AoD rulebook, it's on page 6.

You can see it at 7:50 in GMG's review of the AoD book...

https://youtu.be/Zn18EFRbYt0?t=470

I have no idea if either the stylised imperial eagle or the half decayed version of it has been used in any materials other than Heresy era stuff.

But in the official announcements the project is clearly named „Warhammer 40,000“ and not Heresy or 30k. Of course this all might just point to them not yet knowing where exactly they will go, but I wouldn‘t assume a HH series just from the fancy aquila. Maybe it‘s just there because it somehow fits custodes, given that it’s Cavill we‘re talking about.

I'm certainly not going to say I definitely think it'll be HH, too early to say, but given they used that symbol I'm leaning that direction for now.

I think even if it was a HH thing, they'd might still use "Warhammer 40k" to market it, since that is a name everyone associates with the setting, even people who aren't wargamers and know nothing about the Horus Heresy.

And it fitting the Custodes? Have they ever used this symbol in reference to the Custodes? I'm not a GW historian so I have no idea, but I haven't seen it used for the Custodes, and the Custodes have a bunch of their own symbols (including their own stylised Imperial Eagles if that's what they wanted to go with).

Of course if they release another announcement in a day saying that, no, it's nothing to do with HH, I'll be neither surprised nor disappointed... it's just curious that they decided to use that specific symbol for the announcement and not something else. Maybe it's as simple as someone decided they liked that symbol and didn't think much about what it represented.

I think it's more likely that they just had the symbol animated and hadn't used it yet.

We are a long way from the show having any work done on it's graphics. It won't have a script yet. It probably only just has a treatment.

I would generally say that the license agreement would refer to Age of Darkness rather than 40K as they would be two separate bits of IP that need to be licensed separately, so I think it's extremely unlikely to be HH based.

 The Phazer wrote:
I would generally say that the license agreement would refer to Age of Darkness rather than 40K as they would be two separate bits of IP that need to be licensed separately, so I think it's extremely unlikely to be HH based.

Have we seen the agreement?

Unification Wars and the Rise of the Emperor/Imperium?

That would be...awesome! (If not somewhat sprawling too...)

 Alpharius wrote:
Unification Wars and the Rise of the Emperor/Imperium?
That would be...awesome!

Yeah, it would be even better than HH. I want to believe!

I will not be Heresy as GW is promoting its NuMarines, if it has Marines they will be Primaris with some Custodes possibly as cameos.

Every single promotional piece of material has been NuMarines, every new game, book, art etc.

Also I very much doubt Amazon is going to throw the budget required at HH given the recent failure of "lord of the rings" rings of power, both GW and Amazon will be risk adverse, GW because this is their primary IP and Amazon because they really want to get a crowbar into the streaming wars and ultimately win it.

Money talks, BS walks so neither is going to allow this to fail on the scale of ROP.

This thread is very quickly turning into the whole 'The Old World has a decent chance of being 10mm' nonsense.