[Trench Crusade] New skirmish game being designed by Tuomas Pirinen (KS closed US$3.3 million)

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**kodos**

the setting and art is similar to what we got with early 40k and why it appeals to people
the over the top late gothic crusader art style, were "knight" fight against the real evil and are the only hope

you have that dark dystopia were there is no state order but religious believe and everyone is just doing what is necessary to survive

those settings always get a lot of hype, but hardly ever get good games behind it (looking at Hellgate London)
and a lot of Mangas/Animes go with the same theme as well, simply because the "religion" being "real" is was gets peoples attention
doesn't matter if reality is that god actually exists, it being magic or some scientific explanation (midichlorians)

it is always the possibility of peoples believes being real gets the attention.
bei it 40k, Star Wars, or now Trench Crusade, the more (christian) religious a society is the more popular religious fantasy settings with a similar theme are (and how Jedi are described as religious orders who fight with swords against evil in the first part, you again get the knightly orders/crusaders theme)

**NAVARRO**

Oh religion... Too much of it in the world already dont need it on my minis.

**Cyel**

I am an atheist and wish religions all the worst IRL and I still enjoy playing religious fanatics in my games - Sororitas in 40k, Protectorate in WM

The problem is that in modern wargaming there are a lot of cool settings and more excellent minis that I could paint in my life. It's excellent rules that are in short supply, so these are the primary factor for my decisions on what to buy/play. TC falls woefully short here (as most wargames do).

**Shakalooloo**

NAVARRO wrote:
Oh religion... Too much of it in the world already dont need it on my minis.

Fanaticism is the best explanation for why one's toy soldier dudes fight to the death for your amusement.

**Pacific**

Definitely think it has captured the moment of Dark Souls-esque design, or Kingdom Death (which was also insanely popular) minus the cheesecake.

Also I don't think it's 'pro' anything, in the sense that they have made a setting so Grimdark that it makes 40k look like a Butlins holiday camp by comparison. If you think this seems like any sort of appealing place to live in, I can only assume you live somewhere like Swindon (or Nottingham for that matter!

)

**Mario**

I looks like Graham McNeill (who also worked on League of Legends/Arcane (player count 100+ million), and not just for GW) also posted about Trench Crusade from before the kickstarter. That also might have contributed to its success.

**Angronsrosycheeks**

Pacific wrote:
Definitely think it has captured the moment of Dark Souls-esque design, or Kingdom Death (which was also insanely popular) minus the cheesecake.

There's definitely some "cheesecake", albeit in the style of H.Giger or Brom (think Dark Age the wargame) than the Korean MMO style of Kingdom Death. Plus the Artillery Witch is insanely popular to the point I think she might be an unofficial mascot of the setting.

Anyway, I think seeing the setting as "pro-christian" is a bit surface level, I'm pretty sure almost everything the "good" factions do in the setting that involves religion would be blasphemous or downright offensive to actual IRL christian dogma. It is (imo) using the christian themes in the same way anime does, as exotic and radical aesthetic choice.

**Dysartes**

Cyel wrote:
TC falls woefully short here (as most wargames do).

What's wrong with the rules, from your perspective?

**JWBS**

Disagree, I'd argue "Everyone so bad" is the simplistic, played-out, cringe-centrist, faux-sophisticate take. This setting can most definitely be viewed through a good vs evil lense, you just have to allow certain leeway/dispensation.

**chaos0xomega**

IE - look the other way from atrocities, war crimes and crimes against humanity, religious fundamemtalism, extremism, heresy, blasphemy, etc. Shrug your shoulders, ignore authorial intent, say "the ends justify the means", and acknowledge that youre perfectly ok with the idea of surrendering your humanity to fight evil without having the self-awareness to realize that in doing so you become the very horror youre trying to destroy.

Talk about simplistic, played out, cringe-regressive, anti-intellectual takes.

**godswildcard**

I went in and backed pretty heavily, getting everything for Heretic Legions (C’mon, guy. The 12-year-old kid in my brain has no natural defense against an “Artillery Witch”) and New Antioch. I love the “Crusades meets WWI in the DOOM timeline” setting, and the models are just amazing.

Also, I love the fact that I can get a physical copy of the rulebook. I like free and regularly updated rules as much as the next guy, but I DETEST having to bring out a phone or a tablet (that is likely to get stolen) while at anything other than a friendly game. I’d much rather have a physical rulebook that I can just update myself as time passes.

Can’t wait to start designing my 4x4 table!

**JWBS**

You have an inside scoop on the authorial intent huh.

**chaos0xomega**

JWBS wrote:
You have an inside scoop on the authorial intent huh.

Maybe you shpuld watch or read the interviews with Franchina and Pirinen.

**JWBS**

I'd expect an intellectual would be more specific.

**Cyel**

Dysartes wrote:
Cyel wrote:
TC falls woefully short here (as most wargames do).

What's wrong with the rules, from your perspective?

Well, random charges were the only red flag I needed to see to stop right there. But in general what I managed to see felt quite formulaic and uninspired. You know, a relic from the times when such games told you "the only thing you need to do is move your models so that they are closer to enemy models and then keep rolling the dice until someone kills someone" just with a little make-up. Forget planning, thinking, decisions, choices, roll dice and see what happens.

To be fair, wargames that DON'T do this are really very few and far between, and those that do have their own problems. For some reason board games managed to evolve Monopoly into Brass, Risk into Blood Rage or Snakes and Ladders into Heat: Pedal to the Metal...but wargames seem to have this evolution happen at a maddeningly sluggish pace.

**Shrapnelsmile**

NAVARRO wrote:
Oh religion... Too much of it in the world already dont need it on my minis.

I feel the same way, and some of the fans of the game are scary weird (posting that they are literally praying and praising jeebus for a successful KS), etc.

But my entire game group jumped into the STL pledges, and I enjoy spending time with them, so I'll do a skirmish system "as a palette cleanser," the way my son put it.
the minis are stunning, the rules seems laid back and fun. Truly a hobby-focused game to me.

**Cruentus**

Cyel wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Cyel wrote:
TC falls woefully short here (as most wargames do).

What's wrong with the rules, from your perspective?

Well, random charges were the only red flag I needed to see to stop right there. But in general what I managed to see felt quite formulaic and uninspired. You know, a relic from the times when such games told you "the only thing you need to do is move your models so that they are closer to enemy models and then keep rolling the dice until someone kills someone" just with a little make-up. Forget planning, thinking, decisions, choices, roll dice and see what happens.

To be fair, wargames that DON'T do this are really very few and far between, and those that do have their own problems. For some reason board games managed to evolve Monopoly into Brass, Risk into Blood Rage or Snakes and Ladders into Turbo...but wargames seem to have this evolution happen at a maddeningly sluggish pace.

Well, the rules are basically Mordheim, with an alternative resolution (2d6) versus a d6 system, and lots of special rules for factions and models. If you don’t like Mordheim, you likely won’t like TC. I like Mordheim a ton, but am ambivalent about TC, aside from the concept and cool minis. If I were going to play Mordheim, I’d play Mordheim. YMMV.

**lord_blackfang**

I would honestly love a game that had as much narrative potential as Mordheim but was... good mechanically. And while TC has a remarkable setting, I don't really think I could empathize with any of the characters on the battlefield. I think from that angle it's closer to stuff like Kill Team. A spectacular but emotionless contest of tactical skill or what have you.

**pancakeonions**

Ha. I love that the artillery witch is popular.

Out of curiousity, what wargames have others played here that have really blown their minds, evolved well beyond that sluggish pace?

I tried ASOIF TMG not that long ago - that's almost the only minis game in recent memory to shock me with how good it is. I just don't love the setting (I like elves, dwarves, and orcs, what can I say?)

I also really liked Deadzone. Lots of very cool, outside the box type thinking that (by 3rd edition, anyway) worked really well.

**Sacredroach**

pancakeonions wrote:
Ha. I love that the artillery witch is popular.

Out of curiousity, what wargames have others played here that have really blown their minds, evolved well beyond that sluggish pace?

I tried ASOIF TMG not that long ago - that's almost the only minis game in recent memory to shock me with how good it is. I just don't love the setting (I like elves, dwarves, and orcs, what can I say?)

I also really liked Deadzone. Lots of very cool, outside the box type thinking that (by 3rd edition, anyway) worked really well.

AT-43. After spending the better part of a month puzzling out the rules, we had about 15 people meeting weekly to play. When the ONI were released, everybody went nuts for them. And then Rackham went away...

Maybe Monolith can revive it in the future, but it really was a solid rule set.

We enjoyed Confrontation (original Skirmish) but it was way to fiddly as time passed, and the reboot was just not as much fun (but very AT-43).

I am also a HUGE fan of Darklands, but that is more because of the miniatures than the game system. While enjoyable, it requires almost a Star Fleet Battles level of dedication to play.

**beast_gts**

Project Update #22 wrote:Only-Games visit and the Pledge Manager

Greetings Crusaders,

I hope you’ve all had a good weekend and are ready for some news!

Only-Games facility visit
So what I should have been doing last week is recovering after the madness that was the KS campaign. And if any of my friends or family ask, please tell them that I was indeed having a long lie down in a dark room.

What I was actually doing though was going to London with James to visit Only-Games. Given the success of the campaign we all thought it would be best to have a face to face meeting as soon as possible.

We sat down and had a long discussion about the project and how it was going to be fulfilled, going into a lot of detail which I’m going to break down for you all here. To put it succinctly though, both me and James walked away very reassured.

The first reason for this is their setup. And I’m not talking about 3D printers here. Of course they have 2 rooms full of machines going day and night but, honestly, anyone with a credit card can have that. It’s the stages that come after the printing: Quality control, sorting and packing where OG have really innovated. The system they’ve developed tracks parts all the way through the process, from providing quality control agents with detailed 3D renders to check for defaults, all the way through to a barcode system to double check that all parts are present and correct for packing and shipping.

Next, their experience: Most of you will know Shop3D for their on demand printing services but they also have a lot of experience with bulk printing. They’re currently fulfilling a campaign for Greytide Studios which will be shipping even more individual pieces than we will for TC. We got to see how they were handling this and, once again, no notes.

Last, but not least, is that Factory Fortress and Only-Games clearly have a lot in common and get along like a heretic on fire. We have very similar views on miniatures, the industry and the wargaming community. They are very aware of the situation and the trust we’re placing in them with this project. At the same time, they’ve been waiting for an opportunity to show the world what they can really do, so they’re as committed to getting this done as we are.

For those of you that had some concerns, we also talked about some of the complaints levied against OG and they were very honest with their replies. They’re a company that’s really trying to push the boundaries of what 3D printing can do for the miniatures world. Of course, there have been teething issues as they’ve grown but they’ve continued to improve their process, fix any issues and, most importantly, make sure that everyone always receives their minis. A good example of this would be the aforementioned Greytide campaign. They found an issue with a particular piece and managed to get it fixed very quickly, another big advantage to 3D printing. Only 30 or so packages went out with the faulty piece and those concerned have had parts reprinted and sent.

So, as I said before, we’re very reassured after our visit (and I’m sleeping a lot better). But, what does that mean for delivery, Jamie? I hear you all cry.

Well it’s good news. Despite having around 3K more orders than the original estimation, Only-Games is standing firm on the 3-5 month delivery window. Barring any unforeseen issues, everyone will have their miniatures before the summer of 2025.

The current plan is to spend the rest of the year test printing and finalizing the files for bulk printing as well as pre-producing as much as possible. Things will really start up in January and the first packages will start to ship out before the end of the month.

I’ll finish with some photos of the test prints that we picked up whilst we were there. Like with the pics on the KS page, almost no cleanup was done on these. There’s a few changes we want to make to the thickness of certain parts (like the Plague Knight’s polearm) but otherwise we’re very happy with the results!

The Pledge Manager
The visit to OG did have one downside in that it took up a lot of my time last week. I was not able to finalize the pledge manager and still need some time to sort out the last few details and give it a test run. Therefore, the PM will now be launching next week instead. I’ll be back next monday (the 25th) with news and a final date, but it will be during the week starting on the 25th!

Obviously this doesn’t delay the delivery to the backers who pledged physical miniatures but it will technically push the delivery of STL files back by a week or so. I'm sorry about this folks but it really was worth it to get physical production locked in. Also, jokes aside, I needed to ease off the throttle a bit this weekend after 3 weeks of frantic activity and just couldn’t get it done. I hope you can all understand.

I’ll finish by saying that we’re almost at the 20,000 members mark on Discord and 40,000 on Facebook! Our mods have also just finished doing a redesign of the Discord server too so if you're looking for a place to talk lore, share your warband plans or find crusaders in your area to play with, feel free to join us!

Have a great week folks and we’ll be back soon with more news!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

**highlord tamburlaine**

I got a serious hankering for more Trench Crusade style models that I'm going to need to see dealt with in the time being.

I'm wondering if anyone has some suggestions to check out with the MMF black friday sale getting under way.

**lord_blackfang**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I got a serious hankering for more Trench Crusade style models that I'm going to need to see dealt with in the time being.

I'm wondering if anyone has some suggestions to check out with the MMF black friday sale getting under way.

Gloom Trench 1926 I guess

Lots of TC specific models on Cults3d tho.

**JWBS**

highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I got a serious hankering for more Trench Crusade style models that I'm going to need to see dealt with in the time being.

I'm wondering if anyone has some suggestions to check out with the MMF black friday sale getting under way.

Westfalia has upcoming TC but idk if it will be ready for black friday. JK.Remo has his stuff on sale, he's expensive so now would be the time if you like his stuff.

**highlord tamburlaine**

Gloom Trench was the one I was actually looking for, since I never bothered to bookmark it every time I've come across them.
Situation rectified at last!

**callidusx3**

Cyel wrote:
Dysartes wrote:
Cyel wrote:
TC falls woefully short here (as most wargames do).

What's wrong with the rules, from your perspective?

Well, random charges were the only red flag I needed to see to stop right there. But in general what I managed to see felt quite formulaic and uninspired. You know, a relic from the times when such games told you "the only thing you need to do is move your models so that they are closer to enemy models and then keep rolling the dice until someone kills someone" just with a little make-up. Forget planning, thinking, decisions, choices, roll dice and see what happens.

To be fair, wargames that DON'T do this are really very few and far between, and those that do have their own problems. For some reason board games managed to evolve Monopoly into Brass, Risk into Blood Rage or Snakes and Ladders into Heat: Pedal to the Metal...but wargames seem to have this evolution happen at a maddeningly sluggish pace.

I feel the same way about evolution in game design, Cyel. Yet, if evolved wargame designs are something you crave, then I would recommend exploring beyond the miniature wargame genre and play some board wargames. Lots of innovation there. Sure, they overwhelmingly focus on historical topics, but if mechanics are your grail…

**pancakeonions**

"get along like a heretic on fire"

lol

**BrookM**

**Prometheum5**

BrookM wrote:

I haven't really paid attention to TC but it's everywhere lately and I watched Louise's video... all of the artwork for this project looks like AI generated 'grim dark religious soldier' prompts. I'm curious to look at the rules but I don't get why this has blown up the way it has.

**pgmason**

Prometheum5 wrote:

all of the artwork for this project looks like AI generated 'grim dark religious soldier' prompts.

I think that's a function of the fact that Mike Franchina has been doing these paintings since 2016, and a lot of image generating AI tools scrape sites like Artstation and Deviantart for their training data. None of it is AI generated, but AI is copying this style.

A lot of people are attracted by the art, a lot of people are attracted by the setting - alternate history real-world with supernatural influence. An awful lot of people are excited by Tuomas Pirinen doing the game and seeing it as a spiritual successor to Mordheim - a campaign driven small warband skirmish game in a grimdark setting.