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2023/01/13 18:45:49
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Even the Alien Queen’s carapace, whilst I don’t think we’ve ever seen one being shot at on-screen, likely wouldn’t really compare to Tyranid carapace.
I’d imagine just based on the size difference, and some random info from the depths of my brain oddly certain “bigger the insect, thicker the chitin” a Queen’s carapace would be thicker. But it’s still not been selectively bred to have ballistic properties, it’s just an exo-skeleton there to hold it up and stop the squishy bits forming into a puddle.
Overall I still think a well deployed, reasonably equipped platoon (so special and heavy weapons, likely a mix thereof) would be up to the task.
Now, make it a Lictor, not only bred and instinctually designed to be super stealthy, but with active chameleonic camo? It might take more, provided it has opportunity to do stealth strikes, and not have to attack a prepared position. Depends on environment, no time constraint and as ever, Regiment being attacked.
Catachans in an arboreal environment would require fewer, and perhaps the same even in other environments, as living on a Death World will de facto include Being Aware Of Your Environs.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Overread wrote: 1st edition of Hormagaunts for Tyranids looked like this
Which basically means if you're comparing lethality, the Xenomorph from Aliens is -- a hormagaunt. Or at least a gaunt strain without a gun.
Warriors are way way way above those
Well they also have the acid blood biomorph, and giving them 'flesh hooks' would be fair as they clearly have climbing ability.
But yeah a Tyranid Warrior would beat the snot out of a Xenomorph Drone no contest. It's designed for war, and war against anything, Xenonorph is just designed to kill paltry humans.
Overread wrote: 1st edition of Hormagaunts for Tyranids looked like this
Which basically means if you're comparing lethality, the Xenomorph from Aliens is -- a hormagaunt. Or at least a gaunt strain without a gun.
Warriors are way way way above those
Well they also have the acid blood biomorph, and giving them 'flesh hooks' would be fair as they clearly have climbing ability.
But yeah a Tyranid Warrior would beat the snot out of a Xenomorph Drone no contest. It's designed for war, and war against anything, Xenonorph is just designed to kill paltry humans.
2nd edition hormagaunts had a special rule called 'Leap' that accounted for that. Allowed them to go over walls and such up to 3'' in height.
2023/01/15 01:44:48
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Well given that a Space Marine is apparently strong enough to easily manhandle a Tyranid Warrior and tear its head clean off of its shoulders with a single gauntleted hand per the Space Marine 2 trailer, it would certainly take less than it takes to kill a Marine.
2023/01/15 02:31:40
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Eh its Titus, who also murders his way through countless Ork nobs, a Warboss, like a dozen Chaos Space Marine squads and kills a Daemon Prince with his bare hands.
He isn't exactly an average Marine.
2023/01/15 02:48:08
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Tyran wrote: Eh its Titus, who also murders his way through countless Ork nobs, a Warboss, like a dozen Chaos Space Marine squads and kills a Daemon Prince with his bare hands.
He isn't exactly an average Marine.
Why would he be disproportionately physically stronger than other Marines? Tyranid Warriors are just that fragile relatively-speaking it seems.
2023/01/15 02:53:11
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Tyran wrote: Eh its Titus, who also murders his way through countless Ork nobs, a Warboss, like a dozen Chaos Space Marine squads and kills a Daemon Prince with his bare hands.
He isn't exactly an average Marine.
Why would he be disproportionately physically stronger than other Marines?
Because he kills a Daemon Prince with his bare hands.
Do I need to explain why that is such a big deal?
2023/01/15 03:38:52
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Tyran wrote: Eh its Titus, who also murders his way through countless Ork nobs, a Warboss, like a dozen Chaos Space Marine squads and kills a Daemon Prince with his bare hands.
He isn't exactly an average Marine.
Why would he be disproportionately physically stronger than other Marines? Tyranid Warriors are just that fragile relatively-speaking it seems.
*Looks at stats* . . .
Space Marine Strength 4
Tyranid Warrior Strength 5
Overread wrote: 1st edition of Hormagaunts for Tyranids looked like this
Which basically means if you're comparing lethality, the Xenomorph from Aliens is -- a hormagaunt. Or at least a gaunt strain without a gun.
Warriors are way way way above those
Well they also have the acid blood biomorph, and giving them 'flesh hooks' would be fair as they clearly have climbing ability.
But yeah a Tyranid Warrior would beat the snot out of a Xenomorph Drone no contest. It's designed for war, and war against anything, Xenonorph is just designed to kill paltry humans.
2nd edition hormagaunts had a special rule called 'Leap' that accounted for that. Allowed them to go over walls and such up to 3'' in height.
Hormagaunts in 2nd edition had a 6" leap in addition to the 12" run/charge move, meaning they had a move and threat range of 18". This meant they were an extreme threat as they were also dirt cheap compared to a Tyranid Warrior in 2nd edition (55 points for a Warrior, 8 for a Hormagaunt). Facing a horde of 100 Hormagaunts in 2nd edition was terrifying as they closed the distance so fast and many armies just could not pump out enough shots to thin them down enough. They also effectively screened the larger creatures. I saw them tear apart Terminators through sheer numbers or tar pit characters long enough for Genestealers, or a Carnifex or Tyrant to close in and finish off in the multiple combat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/15 04:13:23
2023/01/15 05:07:31
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Overread wrote: 1st edition of Hormagaunts for Tyranids looked like this
Which basically means if you're comparing lethality, the Xenomorph from Aliens is -- a hormagaunt. Or at least a gaunt strain without a gun.
Warriors are way way way above those
Well they also have the acid blood biomorph, and giving them 'flesh hooks' would be fair as they clearly have climbing ability.
But yeah a Tyranid Warrior would beat the snot out of a Xenomorph Drone no contest. It's designed for war, and war against anything, Xenonorph is just designed to kill paltry humans.
2nd edition hormagaunts had a special rule called 'Leap' that accounted for that. Allowed them to go over walls and such up to 3'' in height.
Hormagaunts in 2nd edition had a 6" leap in addition to the 12" run/charge move, meaning they had a move and threat range of 18". This meant they were an extreme threat as they were also dirt cheap compared to a Tyranid Warrior in 2nd edition (55 points for a Warrior, 8 for a Hormagaunt). Facing a horde of 100 Hormagaunts in 2nd edition was terrifying as they closed the distance so fast and many armies just could not pump out enough shots to thin them down enough. They also effectively screened the larger creatures. I saw them tear apart Terminators through sheer numbers or tar pit characters long enough for Genestealers, or a Carnifex or Tyrant to close in and finish off in the multiple combat.
+1 to this.
One of the better tactics to use against them was to mount up and just plow through a bunch of them with vehicles, as the Hormagaunts couldn't hurt the vehicles (like Rhinos), and take out as many as possible prior to the shooting phase to thin them out. Then use infantry shooting from the vehicle to do more damage and keep the soft bodies safe.
Good times!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/01/15 05:08:35
Overread wrote: 1st edition of Hormagaunts for Tyranids looked like this
Which basically means if you're comparing lethality, the Xenomorph from Aliens is -- a hormagaunt. Or at least a gaunt strain without a gun.
Warriors are way way way above those
Well they also have the acid blood biomorph, and giving them 'flesh hooks' would be fair as they clearly have climbing ability.
But yeah a Tyranid Warrior would beat the snot out of a Xenomorph Drone no contest. It's designed for war, and war against anything, Xenonorph is just designed to kill paltry humans.
2nd edition hormagaunts had a special rule called 'Leap' that accounted for that. Allowed them to go over walls and such up to 3'' in height.
Hormagaunts in 2nd edition had a 6" leap in addition to the 12" run/charge move, meaning they had a move and threat range of 18". This meant they were an extreme threat as they were also dirt cheap compared to a Tyranid Warrior in 2nd edition (55 points for a Warrior, 8 for a Hormagaunt). Facing a horde of 100 Hormagaunts in 2nd edition was terrifying as they closed the distance so fast and many armies just could not pump out enough shots to thin them down enough. They also effectively screened the larger creatures. I saw them tear apart Terminators through sheer numbers or tar pit characters long enough for Genestealers, or a Carnifex or Tyrant to close in and finish off in the multiple combat.
+1 to this.
One of the better tactics to use against them was to mount up and just plow through a bunch of them with vehicles, as the Hormagaunts couldn't hurt the vehicles (like Rhinos), and take out as many as possible prior to the shooting phase to thin them out. Then use infantry shooting from the vehicle to do more damage and keep the soft bodies safe.
Good times!
Another tactic was for Plague Marines to throw plague grenades at each other (targeting friendlies was not prohibited in 2nd edition) as they were immune to the effects and the lingering overlapping AoE of multiple grenades could kill many of the Hormagaunts as they entered the cloud. The Tyranid player had their own similar tactic of firing a barbed strangler at a cheap Hormagaunt near or locked in close combat to the enemy as the AoE of the barbed strangler was deadlier than the direct hit in 2nd edition.
2023/01/15 08:28:07
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Because he kills a Daemon Prince with his bare hands.
Do I need to explain why that is such a big deal?
What makes you think other Marines can't do that? Dante cut Skarbrand in half after all.
Because Demon Princes are almost second only to Greater Demons. They are far more powerful than a regular Marine. Killing one is a sign of just how insanely superior a specific Marine is. It's like watching Rambo and then expecting every single soldier in the US army to be Rambo. You don't all to get to be Rambo. Rambo is the one that stands out, who is the exceptional exception to the norm.
Because Demon Princes are almost second only to Greater Demons. They are far more powerful than a regular Marine. Killing one is a sign of just how insanely superior a specific Marine is. It's like watching Rambo and then expecting every single soldier in the US army to be Rambo. You don't all to get to be Rambo. Rambo is the one that stands out, who is the exceptional exception to the norm.
Yeah but Rambo while very skilled and tough isn't any physically stronger than a man with a similar build. Same with Titus. He's not actually any stronger than Marines of similar height and build, just more skilled. But they are all strong enough to rip a Tyranid Warrior's head clean out of their carapace.
2023/01/16 04:13:46
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
For a sure kill, It would take a simultaneous effort of about 3 teams of heavy weapon emplacement dudes (6 total) with las or auto cannons, or heavy bolters.
or
Man-O-Man-O, a simultaneous attack of about 3 squads of 10 guardsmen (30 ct.) with fixed bayonets (forget the flashlights), and krak grenades.
JD
2023/01/16 05:13:55
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Because Demon Princes are almost second only to Greater Demons. They are far more powerful than a regular Marine. Killing one is a sign of just how insanely superior a specific Marine is. It's like watching Rambo and then expecting every single soldier in the US army to be Rambo. You don't all to get to be Rambo. Rambo is the one that stands out, who is the exceptional exception to the norm.
Yeah but Rambo while very skilled and tough isn't any physically stronger than a man with a similar build. Same with Titus. He's not actually any stronger than Marines of similar height and build, just more skilled. But they are all strong enough to rip a Tyranid Warrior's head clean out of their carapace.
Well when it comes to strength some feats of strength are sometimes less the amount of raw muscle you have and more how you apply those forces. The correct angles and applications of forces can allow someone to achieve things that others cannot. So perhaps he's got just the right understanding of what angles to pull at and where to use his muscles so that he can do the apparent impossible of tearing a Warrior's head off.
Another thing to consider is that Marines aren't just muscle mass; they are a duality of muscle and powersuit and many augmentations and genetic alterations. Within that soup there's room for an exception to arise. Where the geneseed takes better; where the parts were perhaps tended better by the Mechanicus; where the blessed oils are a higher grade etc... Perhaps just a few smaller changes adding up to a larger change.
Because Demon Princes are almost second only to Greater Demons. They are far more powerful than a regular Marine. Killing one is a sign of just how insanely superior a specific Marine is. It's like watching Rambo and then expecting every single soldier in the US army to be Rambo. You don't all to get to be Rambo. Rambo is the one that stands out, who is the exceptional exception to the norm.
Yeah but Rambo while very skilled and tough isn't any physically stronger than a man with a similar build. Same with Titus. He's not actually any stronger than Marines of similar height and build, just more skilled. But they are all strong enough to rip a Tyranid Warrior's head clean out of their carapace.
Well when it comes to strength some feats of strength are sometimes less the amount of raw muscle you have and more how you apply those forces. The correct angles and applications of forces can allow someone to achieve things that others cannot. So perhaps he's got just the right understanding of what angles to pull at and where to use his muscles so that he can do the apparent impossible of tearing a Warrior's head off.
Another thing to consider is that Marines aren't just muscle mass; they are a duality of muscle and powersuit and many augmentations and genetic alterations. Within that soup there's room for an exception to arise. Where the geneseed takes better; where the parts were perhaps tended better by the Mechanicus; where the blessed oils are a higher grade etc... Perhaps just a few smaller changes adding up to a larger change.
While I realize we're injecting Reality and physics into a Fantasy world of Magic and technology - one thing to bear in mind is that Power Armor and the Black Carapace likely assist with power fists not ripping the user's arm out of the socket instead of ripping the head off a Nid. A guardsman without both holding his spine and limbs together probably has a lower breaking point than a Nid Warrior's neck if they do any pulling or tugging instead of squeezing and crushing.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2023/01/16 15:23:59
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
Can anyone show in the lore where Warriors are cut down like Gaunts by las-rifles? I feel like whenever a Warrior shows up in a Cain book it's a mini-boss that causes two things: Cain to brown his pants, and instantly engage it somehow in a sword fight." That being said, in Duty Calls, he engages a Broodlord and a Hive Tyrant in a sword battle. So grain of salt.
Point being, what books show guard actually engaging nids outside of the Cain series? All the Cadia books are guard v Chaos, gaunts series are guard v chaos and daemons.
How are Warriors portrayed in the books, other than as "uh oh, a big one".
2023/01/16 15:33:58
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can anyone show in the lore where Warriors are cut down like Gaunts by las-rifles? I feel like whenever a Warrior shows up in a Cain book it's a mini-boss that causes two things: Cain to brown his pants, and instantly engage it somehow in a sword fight." That being said, in Duty Calls, he engages a Broodlord and a Hive Tyrant in a sword battle. So grain of salt.
Point being, what books show guard actually engaging nids outside of the Cain series? All the Cadia books are guard v Chaos, gaunts series are guard v chaos and daemons.
How are Warriors portrayed in the books, other than as "uh oh, a big one".
Its been a while since I read it, can't even remember the title but it was a Uriel Ventris book. Mostly I just remember the guardsmen dying fast to make the Marines look more heroic. But it was a Space Marine book, not a Guard or Nid Book so that's where the plot armor went.
Oh, and the Super Sister Hospitaller. Looked it up, it was Warriors of Ultramar. Black Library books with Nids are not common.
My WHFB armies were Bretonians and Tomb Kings.
2023/01/17 00:05:50
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can anyone show in the lore where Warriors are cut down like Gaunts by las-rifles? I feel like whenever a Warrior shows up in a Cain book it's a mini-boss that causes two things: Cain to brown his pants, and instantly engage it somehow in a sword fight." That being said, in Duty Calls, he engages a Broodlord and a Hive Tyrant in a sword battle. So grain of salt.
Point being, what books show guard actually engaging nids outside of the Cain series? All the Cadia books are guard v Chaos, gaunts series are guard v chaos and daemons.
How are Warriors portrayed in the books, other than as "uh oh, a big one".
Its been a while since I read it, can't even remember the title but it was a Uriel Ventris book. Mostly I just remember the guardsmen dying fast to make the Marines look more heroic. But it was a Space Marine book, not a Guard or Nid Book so that's where the plot armor went.
Oh, and the Super Sister Hospitaller. Looked it up, it was Warriors of Ultramar. Black Library books with Nids are not common.
I always wondered the reason for having Tyranid warriors when the hive already has multiple different "melee hybrid" forms. Warriors seem like a worse choice, given the option.
2023/01/17 00:10:11
Subject: How Many Guardsmen Would You Need To Take On One Tyranid Warrior?
They offer a cheap synapse source alongside the ability to custom for multiple roles. They can do close combat; they can do light ranged; heavy ranged; light artillery; anti tank; heck when they had wings as an option they could do jump-jet strikes.
This allows Warriors to not only provide synapse; but also fill in key roles to support the units they are synaptically supporting.
They are the cheap, smaller multi-role unit.
Much like the Hive Tyrant and Carnifex who both do a similar function but with many more points and delivering a much heavier punch. Although I'd argue that the Carny is in a little bit of an odd spot now as other heavies have come along now and kind of stolen its thunder. But its still a very viable bug
