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 lord_blackfang wrote:
This article showcases a lot of what seems to be to be "forced synergies" that might result in only particular combinations of units being viable.

Indeed it does. Although they would probably prefer if you called them 'cinematic' and 'background-accurate'. How forced they actually are depends a bit on what skills other units in the army have, but we can't now right now.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
This article showcases a lot of what seems to be to be "forced synergies" that might result in only particular combinations of units being viable.

The whole concept of characters buffing units requires that they go into units that are worthwhile, but what are you thinking is non-viable?

Putting a Mek alone in a Gunwagon? That seems fine.
Putting a Mek near a Stompa? Yikes, LOL.
Putting a Mek in a Battlewagon with some shooty unit? Great.

Nothing requires you to place a Mek in if you just want to drag Boyz around.

Putting a Mek near a shooty Dread? That could also be fine depending on costs.

Oh boy. Here comes the return of congaline Drop Pod Doors blocking off whole sections of the board.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Oh boy. Here comes the return of congaline Drop Pod Doors blocking off whole sections of the board.

how? that is already possible right now and basically never used.

So, what are peoples thoughts about the rumours that Firstborn Dreadnoughts and Landspeeders are going to Legends?

I’m just thinking about potential BS4 battlewagons, Morkanauts and Stompas!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Primaris crusader squads charging out of Land Raider Crusaders

Agusto wrote:
So, what are peoples thoughts about the rumours that Firstborn Dreadnoughts and Landspeeders are going to Legends?

Doubtful. Especially for the dreadnought, since Grey Knights still use them and don't have an alternate. And will they make a Storm Speeder Storm to transport scouts on?

Fingers crossed!

Agusto wrote:
So, what are peoples thoughts about the rumours that Firstborn Dreadnoughts and Landspeeders are going to Legends?

I hadn't heard that.

How likely can they be, when Dark Angels, Wolves and Blood Angels all have variant Dreads and speeders based on the firstborn chassis. They going to do Contemptor Wulfen dreads? Death Company Contemptor? Talon Master on a Stormspeeder?

If it happens, personally I won't be too upset. I don't own any landspeeders (more of a bike/attack bike guy myself), and I can convert my dreads into centurions with some arm swaps.

Agusto wrote:
So, what are peoples thoughts about the rumours that Firstborn Dreadnoughts and Landspeeders are going to Legends?

And Terminators, don't forget Terminators.

With the new HH contemptor kits, I actually hope that most of those weapons options get included in the 40k Codex, rather than just the kheres and multimedia.

The Boxnought and Land Speeder legends rumour is from 4:00 in this Valrak video which comes from the same source he heard the Primaris in old Tanks from

They should just say you can use the models as Contemptors if you want, but I'm all for Marines having (far) fewer datasheets. Primaris and firstborn listings should be combined wherever too.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
With the new HH contemptor kits, I actually hope that most of those weapons options get included in the 40k Codex, rather than just the kheres and multimedia.

I'm am looking forwards to the Contemptor with built-in jukebox, Major

 Dysartes wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
With the new HH contemptor kits, I actually hope that most of those weapons options get included in the 40k Codex, rather than just the kheres and multimedia.

I'm am looking forwards to the Contemptor with built-in jukebox, Major

There isn't an Emperor's Children one any more!

 Matrindur wrote:
The Boxnought and Land Speeder legends rumour is from 4:00 in this Valrak video which comes from the same source he heard the Primaris in old Tanks from

Added to the OP:

Edit 04/19/2023

New video, with rumour concerning SM stuff: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBicrMr0VV4

- A trusted source says 'classic' box dreadnoughts and landspeeders will be relegated to Legend rules
- This was the same source that brought the rumours about SM transports being open to Primaris and vice versa in 10th edition
- Apparently SM codex in ca. August
- Possibly includes dedicated Primaris Scout Landspeeder
- He has heard 'some things' about Blood Angels, but only about small stuff, no real range refresh yet
- His speculation is that it will be Sanguinary guard modelled to fit in with the new Dante

I could easily see the standard Dread going to Legends, but not the Venerable or Ironclad. Which is honestly fine. There hasn't been a valid reason to take a standard Dread for several editions. The Venerable has been superior in every way for a scant increase in points.
Just put the standard Dread out of it's misery already.

Also on the list of redundant/ancient models that could be culled:
Jump Assault marines - Vanguard Vets are better and have cooler models
Attack Bikes- while they made them appealing with the recent points changes, they are still an ancient model and fill the same roll as the ATV

Don't get me wrong, I like these units, but the Marine range is far too bloated. GW would absolutely benefit from trimming the fat

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Ya I'm fine with it marine fat needs trimmed pretty drastically.

I’m not fine with it. For starters they’re still actively selling boxnauts and land speeders.

If marines are going to get a trim, the first place it should start is in the HQ section. They do not need 20 different lieutenant with slightly different bespoke gear combinations. Even the new system could be easily accommodated by one sheet with armor options, each of which comes with a suit of units he can be attached to and bestows a different unit-wide special rule.

But we’re unlikely to see that. In fact, I expect the HQ section to get even more obese with this new system of matching like-armor together.

After that the next step is to combine some of the utterly redundant squad choices. Intercessors should be one sheet (and maybe absorb tactical), the Phobos troops should be one sheet, the various primaris tanks built from the same base as the Gladiator should be one sheet. So on and so forth.

 morganfreeman wrote:
If marines are going to get a trim, the first place it should start is in the HQ section. They do not need 20 different lieutenant with slightly different bespoke gear combinations. Even the new system could be easily accommodated by one sheet with armor options, each of which comes with a suit of units he can be attached to and bestows a different unit-wide special rule.

But we’re unlikely to see that. In fact, I expect the HQ section to get even more obese with this new system of matching like-armor together.

After that the next step is to combine some of the utterly redundant squad choices. Intercessors should be one sheet (and maybe absorb tactical), the Phobos troops should be one sheet, the various primaris tanks built from the same base as the Gladiator should be one sheet. So on and so forth.

A datasheet that is customizable would be way too wordy.

We're not getting any extra datasheets. They're already split by armor. The 'new' Libby sheet already accounts for the old Libby model.

Old marines could easily be a separate detachment, no need to send them to the scrap heap. This is the perfect time to make the break, but we know that’s not happening since the transport article mentioned old models.

 General Kroll wrote:
I’m not fine with it. For starters they’re still actively selling boxnauts and land speeders.

I won't deny that probably hints that those units will still get 10th ed rules initially. But that shouldn't stop them from trimming some units when the Marine Codex drops.
My counter point, however, would be that GW doesn't have to keep rules current to sell models. Some people will buy just to collect.

Also, there are very recent examples of GW selling an outdated model months after a new version was previewed. The new Daemon Prince was previewed over 6 months ago and yet they still had the old one on the site for sale until about a month ago.

Marines are in a weird situation because GW decided to design and release obvious unit replacements as new units instead so there was a period in which both could be fielded. Invader ATVs are and obvious replacement for Attack Bikes and 100% should have been released as such.
But GW wanted to "double dip" and sell both regardless of the rules bloat it caused

 bullyboy wrote:
Old marines could easily be a separate detachment, no need to send them to the scrap heap. This is the perfect time to make the break, but we know that’s not happening since the transport article mentioned old models.

I am absolutely not suggesting all Firstborn stuff get scrapped, but about a third of it is redundant, either because there is an obvious Primaris equivalent (ATV -> Attack Bike) or that there was already a better unit choice (Why would you ever take a standard Dread over a Venerable?).

What I am suggesting is that GW just not update current units to have rules, but allow those old models to be played as other options, see my prior examples. You could also run Assault Marines as VanVets, Bikes as Outriders, etc.
GW has always allowed older models to be used after new versions came out. The only difference here is that the replacement kits have different names

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 Galef wrote:

 General Kroll wrote:
I’m not fine with it. For starters they’re still actively selling boxnauts and land speeders.

I won't deny that probably hints that those units will still get 10th ed rules initially. But that shouldn't stop them from trimming some units when the Marine Codex drops.
My counter point, however, would be that GW doesn't have to keep rules current to sell models. Some people will buy just to collect.

Also, there are very recent examples of GW selling an outdated model months after a new version was previewed. The new Daemon Prince was previewed over 6 months ago and yet they still had the old one on the site for sale until about a month ago.

Marines are in a weird situation because GW decided to design and release obvious unit replacements as new units instead so there was a period in which both could be fielded. Invader ATVs are and obvious replacement for Attack Bikes and 100% should have been released as such.
But GW wanted to "double dip" and sell both regardless of the rules bloat it caused

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Marines are also in the unique position that a lot of the 40k 'classic' marines can be semi-retired by getting Legend/Relic rules in 40k and still be viable choices in HH/30k - bikes, attack bikes, many box dread loadouts and such can be late heresy / scouring-era units and live on in a fashion.

 Galef wrote:
[quote (Why would you ever take a standard Dread over a Venerable?).


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So rather than fix balance invalidate models.

tneva82 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
[quote (Why would you ever take a standard Dread over a Venerable?).


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So rather than fix balance invalidate models.

Nope, I'm saying make the rules represent BOTH models. If you have a standard Dread, field it as a Venerable.
At this point in the lore, standard Dreads would be old enough to be considered Venerable anyway.

What I am suggesting is that GW transition many Firstborn units into Elite, venerated members of the Chapter that still lead important roles. And in the process, phase out old, clearly outdated models.
It's really the best solution to range bloat without completely invalidating tons of units. GW cannot keep adding units without eventually removing some. They just don't have the warehouse space. Nor should a faction exist in-game that has Sooooooo many redundant choices.

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 Galef wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
[quote (Why would you ever take a standard Dread over a Venerable?).


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So rather than fix balance invalidate models.

Nope, I'm saying make the rules represent BOTH models. If you have a standard Dread, field it as a Venerable.
At this point in the lore, standard Dreads would be old enough to be considered Venerable anyway.

Venerable should've just been an upgrade for the various patterns rather than being a different unit entry.

So scatter lasers back on falcons again? Just to make sure it hits and unlocks reroll wounds for your Fire Dragons? Almost like the scatter laser of 7th edition 😁

If Marine players would get to rule the company we would have 40.000 Space Marine entries by the year 2040 and each entry is a precious option that can never be removed and has left the game an unbalanced mess.

Meanwhile Genestealer Cults has gotten two new special characters pushing their total amount of entries on the store from 32 to 34.

 Eldarsif wrote:
If Marine players would get to rule the company we would have 40.000 Space Marine entries by the year 2040

Citation needed