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Hmmm I'll repeat what I said for Marines, I like everything except the high number of attacks everywhere, doesn't really look like they toned down the overall lethality.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hmmm I'll repeat what I said for Marines, I like everything except the high number of attacks everywhere, doesn't really look like they toned down the overall lethality.

Stealers lost an AP, but went up on WS. Invuln is down overall, but certainly tougher with the extra wound.

Swarmy currently has 9 S9 AP4 D3 turned into 8 S9 AP2 D3. And instead of being able to smite and cast another spell has a 2 to 3 auto-hitting heavy bolters worth of shots. He also no longer gives rerolls.

Rupture Cannon goes from A3 S14 AP4 D6+4 to A2 S18 AP4 2D6. Against a Rhino it goes from 12.5 to 7.8. If it stands still that becomes 9.7.

So, let us say that a unit of 10 Genestealers are attacking a unit of the new Terminators sitting on an objective. If the Nids player goes for the 6:s become Mortal Wounds ability, that is, after rerolls, around 10 mortal wounds and 6 AP2 wounds. One charge and you have one Terminator standing. Are we really seeing this as a reduction in lethality?

Agusto wrote:
So, let us say that a unit of 10 Genestealers are attacking a unit of the new Terminators sitting on an objective. If the Nids player goes for the 6:s become Mortal Wounds ability, that is, after rerolls, around 10 mortal wounds and 6 AP2 wounds. One charge and you have one Terminator standing. Are we really seeing this as a reduction in lethality?

I think you have your abilities mixed up; the Tyranids can't dole out the 6s become Mortal Wounds thing to stealers (that's Devastating Wounds), they can only give out Lethal Hits, which means 6s to hit auto-wound. And that adaptation only works vs. Monsters and Vehicles, against Infantry they can only have Sustained Hits [1], which means 6s to hit get one additional hit.

Thank you, I stand corrected

Agusto wrote:
Thank you, I stand corrected

No problem, it gets a bit confusing which 6s to what do what with which ability, i guess it will take a few practice games before it all snaps into place

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hmmm I'll repeat what I said for Marines, I like everything except the high number of attacks everywhere, doesn't really look like they toned down the overall lethality.

Taking the swarmlord as an example comparing top bracket to new profile:

Defence: gained 2T, lost 3 wounds, can join units for safety otherwise largely break even for survivability imo, lost blade parry. Overall this likely a slight improvement due to plasma/melta etc being less effective.

Offense: Lost smite and other psychic damage MW's for a reasonable 18" flamer, however the flamer will vary in use compared to flat MW, so I'd call that a downgrade. Lost 2ap and an attack in melee, significantly less deadly there.

Utility is harder to measure in honesty. Overall I'd argue that he's less lethal and more survivable overall as 2 individual statements, but definitely in conjunction.

Old rupture cannon vs New into rhinos
Old: 3, 3+ shots, wounding on 2's, ap-4 (no save), d6+4 damage to average of 7
New 2, 3+/2+ shots, wounding on 3's, ap-4 (no save but easier to get it to a 6+), 2D6 damage for average of 7

Can't work out efficiencies but comparatively current one does 11.7 damage, new one does 7.8

Genestealers should hold up okay.

I mean old rules into old Terminators (before any subfaction/detachment bonuses)

4*2/3*1/2*2/3=0.888 wounds.
Now.
4*5/6*1/3*7/6*1/2=0.64 wounds. Rising to 0.925 on an objective.

Points values etc may change things up.

I think the bigger point is them crossing the Rubicon. The range of things S4 AP- is going to meaningfully impact seems to be shrinking. Which may be part of the whole "make things tougher" - but could potentially leave cheap and cheerful looking, well, a bit pointless.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Any more straw tneva? Because if you give me anymore i am set for live by selling it to my neighbour farmer.

I made a statement of fact, we ARE talking about GW. We also ALL know that that means rules will be of questionable qualtiy and that limitations through rules in the name of balance are there to be ignored by gw ruleswriters soon after introduction.


At no point did i target the rule as a tool , contrary it would probably work if we weren't talking about gw, but since we already get haves and have nots with exceptions i just see it as what it is, cosmetic pr speak.

You claim gw should allow deathstars because gw screws up balance in future. Aka you yourself arqued death stars and with this worse game should be allowed.

Be a man and own your Own words. or don't have guts owning what you yourself said?

Removed - be polite please

I’m just hoping there’s senior citizen 24pt font cards available to oldies like me. 🤣

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:
I’m just hoping there’s senior citizen 24pt font cards available to oldies like me. 🤣

Wait for the Adeptus Administratum Magnifying Lens to be released.

tneva82 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 oni wrote:
So far...

The Good:
- Characters joining units (again) but limited to one and restricting what units. Fantastic!

I fail to see why either of those are positives.

First one stops deathstar problem resurfacing.

Ah yes, because when a character's bodyguard has been badly depleted, preventing him from detaching and joining a different unit definitely prevents death stars.

. . .

Somehow.

tneva82 wrote:
Second ensures more control on what buffs unit can get. As different buffs are valued differently based on unit it applies but point costs don't change helps with balance. Alternatives are imbalance or different cost depending which unit character is attached(and if multiple characters in units was possible cost of characters should change based on what other characters are in unit...)

Whether you consider that positive depends on do you care about balance or not.

I like balance up to a point but not where it makes everything boring as hell.

"Here is your Archon HQ, it must go with Incubi."

"Here is your Succubus HQ, it must go with Wyches."

I honestly don't see the appeal. Maybe if you play Marines and every HQ still has a billion units to choose from even with the restrictions. But for other armies it seems needlessly constraining.

One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Hmmm I'll repeat what I said for Marines, I like everything except the high number of attacks everywhere, doesn't really look like they toned down the overall lethality.

Based on the current previews, Marines lethality is already a fraction of what it was before. 'oooh, oath of moment' Oath of moment is against one, maybe 2 units with guillamen. Marines used to just have that 100% of the time, all the time, against anything.

They have reduced AP on most of their high volume shots, the doctrines don't just give free AP anymore, even Guillamen only has 1 ability that flat increases damage output and that requires giving up several other abilities that could potentially win the game on objectives.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
.......how?

She's going to be almost as good as 2 genestealers. You can't just let that sort of power run free.

My belief 10th will be okay is much higher than DE list building being "fun". Which is different to "OP because everything is too cheap versus everything else."

My feeling is there's no one in the studio who especially likes the lore, but who knows. Roll on late 2024 and maybe they'll be in line for a significant release.

Voss wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

That doesn't answer the question

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

That doesn't answer the question

It very much does.

Voss wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

By that logic, the Archon shouldn't be able to join them either. Incubi aren't Cabal units and Wych Cults are just as capable of hiring them.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Voss wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

By that logic, the Archon shouldn't be able to join them either. Incubi aren't Cabal units and Wych Cults are just as capable of hiring them.

Incubi are specifically a sect of hired bodyguards that do not care who you are as long as you can pay their extortionate prices, right? In that case they should be joinable by most characters, regardless of subfaction.

ERJAK wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

That doesn't answer the question

It very much does.

Saying it's gamey isn't explained by the metaphor given. So I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation besides you don't like it, which is the main defense y'all seem to have for this nonsense.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

That doesn't answer the question

It very much does.

Saying it's gamey isn't explained by the metaphor given.

Yes it is. That it works by game logic, not real world organization logic (or fictional universe organizational logic) very definitively explains it.

Also:
A succubus hiring bodyguards to save her from danger would be considered a coward quickly pulled down by her enemies and subordinates.
In an archon, that's just being sensible.

So I'm still waiting for a reasonable explanation besides you don't like it, which is the main defense y'all seem to have for this nonsense.

I've got a nice pot wanting to meet a kettle. You interested?


Of course, this is also the usual brand of pre-edition panic. We don't actually know if succubi can join incubi units or not.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Voss wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
One could also say it's needlessly gamey for a Succubus to lead Incubi...?

.......how?

For the same reason you don't have an Army Captain leading an Air Force squadron from a Navy boat.

That doesn't answer the question

Look out you almost got pulled over by a coast guard cutter inside a space force UFO piloted by a marine

People just casually forgetting the Swarmlord re-rolls all wounds in combat now.

A d6+3 D2 flamer is also far better than a smite.

Also:
A succubus hiring bodyguards to save her from danger would be considered a coward quickly pulled down by her enemies and subordinates.
In an archon, that's just being sensible.

They can try. Gotta get through the Incubi first.

Prize fighters often have minders to keep the masses off them, for various reasons. I don't see why fictional Gladiator queens wouldn't have the option.

 Bosskelot wrote:


A d6+3 D2 flamer is also far better than a smite.

Swarmlord got to pick two psychic powers, the use two out of the three each turn. Plus two denies. It’s not just trading Smite for a flamer.

 Souleater wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:


A d6+3 D2 flamer is also far better than a smite.

Swarmlord got to pick two psychic powers, the use two out of the three each turn. Plus two denies. It’s not just trading Smite for a flamer.

But since it seems ALL psykers are going to be in a similar boat, Swarmlord looks like it's in a good spot.

 Jidmah wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Considering there's a special rule for weapons to always wound on 6+ regardless of S/T, I expect there is a cutoff point where you can't wound without that rule.

I don't think you've properly parsed that.

We know of the following rules:
1) [Lethal Hits] which causes critical hits to automatically wound.
2) As a default, 6+ to wound cause critical wounds.
3) critical wounds always wound regardless of S/T.

The reason why it is worded this way is because we already know that some weapons can cause critical wounds on lower rolls ([Anti-Vehicle], for example) and because critical wounds sometimes trigger other effects, like [Devastating Wounds], which turns damage into mortal wounds.

If I had to guess there may be an additional Strength of NxT automatically wounds. The reason I think so is there's a little blurb about the Repulsor Laser thing capable of removing a Termagant "as if by magic".

Which, honestly would be good for the game.