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Characters who don’t have any wargear choices are going to start really sucking in the way of customization now, looking at you mega armor boss

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeouch, those army build rules have broken two thirds of my armies, unless I start changing my lore. Oi vey.

how so?

My Superheavy Tank Regiment's only real Character models (the keyword, not the English word) are in the Regimental H&S Company. Either I am not using my Superheavy tanks in a detachment, or I am bringing a regimental commander, her command tank, her support staff... or her XO and some staff. Or just damn the fluff and bring like, 1 character with no staff or anything whatsoever because the easiest way to coordinate a Superheavy Tank Company is apparently on foot a few yards away.

My Armageddon Steel Legion has 12 chimeras at 2k, and likely won't be able to field more than six. So uh, 1k points it is then I guess.

My daemons are probably fine. For now.

I symathise with your disappointment. Building and painting six tauroxes (ouch ! ) to compensate is not a happy prospect. For infantry you could still count 6 as regular infantry squads, and six as cadians with 2 special weapons. Not ideal. But adding artillery and LRBT 's to your army shoud easily do the trick to reach 2k points, while obtaining greater firepower.

 Ravajaxe wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeouch, those army build rules have broken two thirds of my armies, unless I start changing my lore. Oi vey.

how so?

My Superheavy Tank Regiment's only real Character models (the keyword, not the English word) are in the Regimental H&S Company. Either I am not using my Superheavy tanks in a detachment, or I am bringing a regimental commander, her command tank, her support staff... or her XO and some staff. Or just damn the fluff and bring like, 1 character with no staff or anything whatsoever because the easiest way to coordinate a Superheavy Tank Company is apparently on foot a few yards away.

My Armageddon Steel Legion has 12 chimeras at 2k, and likely won't be able to field more than six. So uh, 1k points it is then I guess.

My daemons are probably fine. For now.

I symathise with your disappointment. Building and painting six tauroxes (ouch ! ) to compensate is not a happy prospect. For infantry you could still count 6 as regular infantry squads, and six as cadians with 2 special weapons. Not ideal. But adding artillery and LRBT 's to your army shoud easily do the trick to reach 2k points, while obtaining greater firepower.

I could, but it is hard to be a Mechanized Infantry company when half your combat power or more comes from... well, not the Mechanized Infantry.

And sure I could change my lore, but I thought this army build system offered more freedom, not less!

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Wouldn't it be hilarious if World Eaters and TSons (Death Guard are a lot harder because they were given almost all unique stuff) were thrown back into just Chaos Space Marines with a themed detachment instead of their own full codex?

i'd welcome it, give my thousand sons some options ffs

I wish people would use adjectives in front of the word "Options".

Putting Ksons back in the CSM dex might give you access to some Unit Options that you don't have right now.

But I just bought the Ksons dex today so that I could continue to play the fluffy version of the game once everybody else transitions to the stale cardboard but balanced and easy to play game that's coming. And I see that in the Ksons dex, you've got 9 powers in each of two disciplines plus a bespoke power for each cult that you can choose from.

Enjoy the handful of extra units you get to pick when every psychic power from your army is chosen for you.

Enjoy not having cults, because now you just get detachments like everyone else- assuming you get your own dex.

Until that article today, I thought I might be okay with 10th, but I'm less optimistic now. Subfactions should matter. Now they don't.

But of course, you can bet you @$$ there will be a bespoke BA, DA and SW dex with its own detachments, because Space Marine subfactions have always mattered and always will.

I also love how competitive types call "not getting a bonus" a penalty. As someone pointed out, BA always had access to SM artillery- they just didn't get bonuses- meaning their artillery was just as good as any chapter who ALSO didn't get a bonus to artillery... which is most SM.

Dudeface wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Wouldn't it be hilarious if World Eaters and TSons (Death Guard are a lot harder because they were given almost all unique stuff) were thrown back into just Chaos Space Marines with a themed detachment instead of their own full codex?

i'd welcome it, give my thousand sons some options ffs

I mean, what options from the main book do you expect they'd pick up whilst maintaining the fluff? Or are you happy to play "chaos legionnaires with a special rule" again?

If they bring it back in the main book, it would be silly to still give them access to only the units they currently have.

So yes, i would love having the option to bring Havocs, possessed, bikers, jetpacks,etc.
Oh and as i said earlier in one of the currently active threads, if it means that our legion trait is litterally just "squad leaders (and DREADNOUGHTS PLEASE FFS GW) are psykers", i'd be happy

I'm pretty optimistic about thousand sons being in their own codex in 10th edition. You will certainly lose many psy powers and special snowflake rules, but to be honest with you, I don't think it is a bad move. TS codex, among nearly all others from late 9th, is a nightmare to cope with as an opponent.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
i'd welcome it, give my thousand sons some options ffs

Booooo! Cast your spells and like it!

But seriously what options would you take that they don't have that wouldn't absolutely break the theme of the army?

What would actually happen is the best TS units would get poached and the rest will die. Just like in 8th where everyone took Ahriman for a while.

Heavy weapons mainly (and no, it doesnt break the theme of the army, we already have soulreapers and missile launchers, don't give me that "rubricae are too dumb to use heavy weapons")


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Ah yes, because both a Relic AND Warlord Trait is super breaking on one character. Not a ploy to sell named characters at all.

yes, its more variables to balance around on one model, and can make units overperform a lot than a vanilla unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeouch, those army build rules have broken two thirds of my armies, unless I start changing my lore. Oi vey.

how so?

My Superheavy Tank Regiment's only real Character models (the keyword, not the English word) are in the Regimental H&S Company. Either I am not using my Superheavy tanks in a detachment, or I am bringing a regimental commander, her command tank, her support staff... or her XO and some staff. Or just damn the fluff and bring like, 1 character with no staff or anything whatsoever because the easiest way to coordinate a Superheavy Tank Company is apparently on foot a few yards away.

My Armageddon Steel Legion has 12 chimeras at 2k, and likely won't be able to field more than six. So uh, 1k points it is then I guess.

My daemons are probably fine. For now.

if GW desisgns detachments properly (like they do in AoS), all of those might be possible


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

Enjoy not having cults, because now you just get detachments like everyone else- assuming you get your own dex.

Until that article today, I thought I might be okay with 10th, but I'm less optimistic now. Subfactions should matter. Now they don't.

Detachment - Cult of Mutation
Detachment - Cult of Time
Detachment - Cult of Manipulation
...

why do you think those WON'T be a thing?

And yeah, we have lots of spells thats fine with me, but i still want to play more variety of power armor instead of spamming 3 datasheet

 Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Characters who don’t have any wargear choices are going to start really sucking in the way of customization now, looking at you mega armor boss

This is my main concern. It's probably not so bad for those characters that can still cover most bases with wargear, but for ones with no or one-dimensional wargear selections this is going to be boring as feth.

PenitentJake wrote:


I also love how competitive types call "not getting a bonus" a penalty. As someone pointed out, BA always had access to SM artillery- they just didn't get bonuses- meaning their artillery was just as good as any chapter who ALSO didn't get a bonus to artillery... which is most SM.

I don't know about BA, but in 7th, SW had access to land raiders, rhino's, predators, vindicators and whirlwinds (everything but the whirlwinds are exactly what TS shares with the other CSM faction) otherwise it was all unique datasheets and mostly unique kits. SW did not have access to all the fancy new marine crap, like centurions, that cannon thing, etc etc etc. Primaris was when things started to be shared and it wasn't until 9th that SW got the rest of the artillery.

But again, I don't know what BA looked like back in 7th. I was playing wolves in 7th and CSM back in 4-5th and didn't play 6th.

Also, I care little about competitive play. For me, it's more like, I was sold a unique faction. I didn't sign up for vanilla marines. I don't mind having limitations. I don't mind if my army sucks compared to others (I mean within reason, I still like to win some casual games). I don't mind if the rules are supported less often. Just give me the faction you sold me in first place. Let me have the flavor and unique kits. That's what GW told me they were. That's what I was playing when I first started the faction. That's what the CSM factions have become while SW went in the completely opposite direction. I mean, at least don't retire them. I guess I can always play older editions. So, when I look at each CSM sub faction codex, I see exactly what SWs were in 7th and I just have to say, if they can do it to one army, they can do it to another.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
i'd welcome it, give my thousand sons some options ffs

Booooo! Cast your spells and like it!

But seriously what options would you take that they don't have that wouldn't absolutely break the theme of the army?

What would actually happen is the best TS units would get poached and the rest will die. Just like in 8th where everyone took Ahriman for a while.

Heavy weapons mainly (and no, it doesnt break the theme of the army, we already have soulreapers and missile launchers, don't give me that "rubricae are too dumb to use heavy weapons")


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Ah yes, because both a Relic AND Warlord Trait is super breaking on one character. Not a ploy to sell named characters at all.

yes, its more variables to balance around on one model, and can make units overperform a lot than a vanilla unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeouch, those army build rules have broken two thirds of my armies, unless I start changing my lore. Oi vey.

how so?

My Superheavy Tank Regiment's only real Character models (the keyword, not the English word) are in the Regimental H&S Company. Either I am not using my Superheavy tanks in a detachment, or I am bringing a regimental commander, her command tank, her support staff... or her XO and some staff. Or just damn the fluff and bring like, 1 character with no staff or anything whatsoever because the easiest way to coordinate a Superheavy Tank Company is apparently on foot a few yards away.

My Armageddon Steel Legion has 12 chimeras at 2k, and likely won't be able to field more than six. So uh, 1k points it is then I guess.

My daemons are probably fine. For now.

if GW desisgns detachments properly (like they do in AoS), all of those might be possible


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:

Enjoy not having cults, because now you just get detachments like everyone else- assuming you get your own dex.

Until that article today, I thought I might be okay with 10th, but I'm less optimistic now. Subfactions should matter. Now they don't.

Detachment - Cult of Mutation
Detachment - Cult of Time
Detachment - Cult of Manipulation
...

why do you think those WON'T be a thing?

And yeah, we have lots of spells thats fine with me, but i still want to play more variety of power armor instead of spamming 3 datasheet

Even if those are a thing you're most likely not getting those until your codex it's very doubtful those will be in the index

Wayniac wrote:
Even if those are a thing you're most likely not getting those until your codex it's very doubtful those will be in the index

well yeah, no gak. The game is getting a much needed reset, i don't expect GW of all companies to give us a complete package on day1 (tho i wish they did, but "muh shareholders")

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Ah yes, because both a Relic AND Warlord Trait is super breaking on one character. Not a ploy to sell named characters at all.

yes, its more variables to balance around on one model, and can make units overperform a lot than a vanilla unit.

It's like y'all didn't pay attention to what happened with the Nephilim hit to CP along with Relics + Warlord Traits.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Ah yes, because both a Relic AND Warlord Trait is super breaking on one character. Not a ploy to sell named characters at all.

yes, its more variables to balance around on one model, and can make units overperform a lot than a vanilla unit.

It's like y'all didn't pay attention to what happened with the Nephilim hit to CP along with Relics + Warlord Traits.

How is what i said any less true because people valued CP more than traits/relics in that season?

 Type40 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
i'd welcome it, give my thousand sons some options ffs

I will bet money that it doesn't.

I'd bet money that by 11th it does lol. What makes chaos so special that it wont follow the same trends as every other sub faction in the game. Watch the "primaris of chaos" start to come out,,, then you'll know you are doomed. Everyone who plays a chaos faction will need the hot new generic unit... then it will be "oh, everyone just plays the same units with different colours" . I honestly do not see the difference between a DG terminator and a 7th SW terminator, or a DG marine squad and 7th SW grey hunter squad. DG has unique wargear and kits for these units, so did space wolves. It's all just marines with different colours right. Unique units, same, unique tanks(space wolf flyers ?) same, unique specialist units, same. I don't know, the way chaos is being handled gives me strong SW and deathwatch vibes.

Literally all of the spin off chaos factions are models that are 6 years old or less and CSM were just redone. There is no primaris for chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Ah yes, because both a Relic AND Warlord Trait is super breaking on one character. Not a ploy to sell named characters at all.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

PenitentJake wrote:
I wish people would use adjectives in front of the word "Options".

Putting Ksons back in the CSM dex might give you access to some Unit Options that you don't have right now.

If I want to play Black Legion I'll play CSM. Unit options do not always make an army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Heavy weapons mainly (and no, it doesnt break the theme of the army, we already have soulreapers and missile launchers, don't give me that "rubricae are too dumb to use heavy weapons")

I'd much rather wait for them to add a new kit than bastardize the army.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


Literally all of the spin off chaos factions are models that are 6 years old or less and CSM were just redone. There is no primaris for chaos.

Right, just like space wolves at the beginning of 7th XD ... same same same. I mean,,,, exactly 6 years before 7th for the terminator kit. fenerisian wolves, cyberwolves, SW company ancient, 15 unit bloodclaws kit were 2 years before 7th. 4 names characters, thunderwolf cavalery, 1.5 years before 7th. Grey hunter/blood claws kit was 1 year before 7th, stormwolf same year as 7th, SW dreadnaught, cyberwolf, wulfen, iron priest, 3 named characters same year as 7th ... the only kits that were older then 6 years were the scouts, grimnar on foot, and the termie rune priest... 3 kits (except the same kind of vehicles that CSM shares all round too)... .... hmmm .... CSM subfactions are exactly where SWs were in 7th .... In fact,,, its almost identical. That's funny,,,, thanks for pointing out how similar the situation is XD. Weird that SWs had an almost identical variety of new unique kits, data sheets and excluded units to the main faction as all the CSM subfactions do now... in fact... SWs had more unique units then some of CSM subfactions ... Having kits "just re-done" didn't stop GW in the past... I give the CSM subfactions until 11th at the latest.

p.s. no primaris equivalent YET.

They're redone to the new scale. CSM was literally last year. They're not getting replaced.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They're redone to the new scale. CSM was literally last year. They're not getting replaced.

And SW also just had kits made a year before before being folded in... I don't see your point.

You enjoy your conspiracies. Don't forget to check back in.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You enjoy your conspiracies. Don't forget to check back in.

I mean, I agree that it would upset a lot of players. I agree that it wouldn't really make sense to fold them back in. I agree that it would SUCK. But they HAVE done it before. It is in fact an almost 1 to 1 comparison. Same variety of differences, same variety of kits, same age of kits, same types of exclusions of access to main faction kits, same variety of unique wargear/army rules and etc. But then everyone screams "they are just marines but a different colour" and bamb, no more unique faction. I don't want that to happen to your special snowflakes, but again, I just don't see the difference. They did it to my snowflakes and at some point GW will decide they can sell more models if they make vanilla models for 5 codexs instead of releasing 5 kits/rulesets and that's the road I assume they will follow again. Why wouldn't they ? they have done it before.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Ah yes, because both a Relic AND Warlord Trait is super breaking on one character. Not a ploy to sell named characters at all.

yes, its more variables to balance around on one model, and can make units overperform a lot than a vanilla unit.

It's like y'all didn't pay attention to what happened with the Nephilim hit to CP along with Relics + Warlord Traits.

How is what i said any less true because people valued CP more than traits/relics in that season?

Because the supposed hit did nothing to the topping armies and proved the problem was said army rules and units themselves?

And yeah when they make the player only start with 6CP, no gak they can't use them on characters.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If I want to play Black Legion I'll play CSM. Unit options do not always make an army.

Ah, the plight of all of the Undivided Legions in 40k since late 4th edition (with the brief reprieve of Traitor Legions, of course).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Heavy weapons mainly (and no, it doesnt break the theme of the army, we already have soulreapers and missile launchers, don't give me that "rubricae are too dumb to use heavy weapons")

I'd much rather wait for them to add a new kit than bastardize the army.

Look, I just want Rubrics to be able to have 3 Heavy or Special Weapons in any combination again.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


I'd much rather wait for them to add a new kit than bastardize the army.

how is it bastardizing them?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:



Detachment - Cult of Mutation
Detachment - Cult of Time
Detachment - Cult of Manipulation
...

why do you think those WON'T be a thing?

Well, obviously I don't know for sure. My suspicion comes from today's article - when they said detachments wouldn't be based on paintjob, I took that to mean subfactions, because for most of us, paintjob IS part of subfaction identity. The Gladius example also seemed to ignore subfaction.

But who knows- these very well could be Ksons detachments.

I shouldn't be reacting to every warcom article- it could be alright. I mean, I for sure know I'm losing options because unlike most people, I LIKED having lots of strategems, lots of relics, lots of WL Traits including bespoke subfaction versions because I see all of those things as options... But I'm still hopeful that whatever is on it's way might still be somewhat worthwhile?

Like there's a chance that it could have ENOUGH detail... Like if I'm encouraging people to be content with balanced enough, I should try to be content with detailed enough?

That's a point: They could keep the Cults in a Thousand Sons Codex as that's not really a 'paint job' driven thing. They're already Thousand Sons, not just "blue and gold Chaos Marines".

But the non-Cult Legions? Those have to go! Can't have those around anymore. Too restrictive. Better to make everything 'Counts As'.

IDK why people are pretending they weren't explicit with how the system will work. Subfactions are going to use detachments for thier special rules, rather then getting rules and detachments unto themselves. Here is the related sentence; "Instead of choosing a subfaction or constructing your own, you now choose a single set of Detachment rules for your whole army." that's pretty cut and dry pretending like a "Cult of Time detachment" is going to happen in less than 2 years is laughable.

Ksons are going to be a detachment of CSM and will have an enormous list of things they can't bring. All thier psychic options will disappear and will probably be left with 1 spell which is rather crap that they can spam Ala Smite, and they will be left with mediocre choices on HQs assuming you get a choice. All the unique systems like Cabal points are more then likely gone, replaced with a static decision which were "the best".

Personally I play Black Templars and given that my subfaction requires access to certain units which no other SM army has access to and "the index will have one detachment per army" I'm likely to be forced to play a generic space marine army with a "Melee detachment"

The up side is my army will probably be near impossible to win with since because of the 1 for 1 swap on rules, an army that focuses on melee combat with no psykers and set litanies from chaplins means there is exactly one way to build my army for it to have a snowballs chance in hell to win. And the chances that my army will be the thing that wins from the start will are below 1%.

Looking at this now I'm starting to see hybrid factions are going to suffer the most given that they will be the last in line to get any kind of real selection when it comes to detachments. And on top of that will be seriously lacking when it comes to power given they will never get an extra rules to make up for thier lack of power in other areas.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's a point: They could keep the Cults in a Thousand Sons Codex as that's not really a 'paint job' driven thing. They're already Thousand Sons, not just "blue and gold Chaos Marines".

But the non-Cult Legions? Those have to go! Can't have those around anymore. Too restrictive. Better to make everything 'Counts As'.

By the nature of abstract game mechanics, everything is already counts as.

The idea that a particular colour of sub army needs a set of special rules with their name in the title to legitimise their gameplay seems to be a unique tunnel vision only found amongst Warhammer players.

It's a weird transactional approach where if you don't get something mechanical for a faction then it has no worth.

People with homebrew factions don't seem to have an issue not getting special unique named rules.

Zarathustra Spake wrote:
Ksons are going to be a detachment of CSM...

How do you know that? Black Templars are a supplement for the Marine 'Dex. 1KSons aren't part of the CSM Codex. They're their own Codex.

 Hellebore wrote:
By the nature of abstract game mechanics, everything is already counts as.

Only if you take 'Counts As' completely out of context and try to apply it to everything in the game. Don't do that.

To put it another way: You know exactly what's meant by 'Counts As'. Don't intentionally muddy the waters by talking about abstractions. It's a red herring at best.

I'm sorry (not sorry) to the space marine players but I tend to look at the various Chapters and think that they're just like Imp Guard. The only difference for a majority of their units is the aesthetics. By that I mean a Space Wolf Tac marine is functionally the same as a Salamander Tac marine. The difference is in how they look. It's just like the guard a Tallaran plasma gunner is the same as a Steel Legion plasma gunner except for the uniform. So why shouldn't GW just fold all of the chapters back into 1 Codex? The units that are unique to a specific chapter could be found in 1 or 2 of the new army sheets. The same could be done for CSM. This would allow GW to put out Codices at a much faster rate and allow people to use their Codex for a longer period of time until 11th Ed.

 Hellebore wrote:


People with homebrew factions don't seem to have an issue not getting special unique named rules.

If they are content to not have special rules with their names on them, they wouldn't be houserulers, would they?

They'd be content to just play like everyone else. You don't houserule unless you find the regular rules unsatisfying.