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So what if there's a lot of datasheets if you can't take more than one captain?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's ok guys, it's about to be 10th. Just pick your favorite Datasheet:

SM Captain with Power Fist
3+/2+ -3 3

SM Captain with Thunder Hammer
2+/3+ -3 3

SM Captain with Thunder Fist
2+/3+ -3 1, but on a successful wound roll add 2 damage

SM Captain with Power Hammer
3+/2+ -1 3 but on a successful wound roll add 2 AP.

I don't think GW is gonna do an amazing job.
But since the initial batch of rules are slated to be free, I'm willing to wait and see how well they do.

 Kanluwen wrote:
So what if there's a lot of datasheets if you can't take more than one captain?

"Bloat is okay because your actual army will have less rules than actually exist" was never an argument I thought I would read.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's ok guys, it's about to be 10th. Just pick your favorite Datasheet:

SM Captain with Power Fist
3+/2+ -3 3

SM Captain with Thunder Hammer
2+/3+ -3 3

SM Captain with Thunder Fist
2+/3+ -3 1, but on a successful wound roll add 2 damage

SM Captain with Power Hammer
3+/2+ -1 3 but on a successful wound roll add 2 AP.

As much as you're trying to take the piss and totally ignoring strength still exists, that's the sort of thing you can do to balance things out via moving the various stats about, so if you gain +1 to hit, +1 to wound, +1 attack etc. certain profiles get a chance to shine. Even if by base profile you'd assume they all have the same total output. Given damage doesn't spill over in 40k (yet), it open scope for lots of accurate weak attacks balancing out against fewer heavier hitting ones.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I honestly cannot remember if the Captain could take a Thunder Hammer. But if he could, that’s the badger for the job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just checked. And he could.

Definitely the right tool for the job, and came with Storm Shield for that important extra save.

Just needed to win a combat, which is far, far from a given! But if you did, the Bloodthirster’s kneecaps would be the first to know.

Yeah. Actually winning the combat is the thing. When the Bloodthirster bests the Captains WS by 3, and has got a higher Initiative, it means the Captain has to beat the 'Thirster by 4 points on the dice results . . . And there are only 6 pips on a D6. You're mostly praying for Fumbles.

The Bloodthirsters axe did D3 wounds too. Just one hit could kill that Captain.

Edit: For yuks I rolled out Captain with LCs against a 'Thirster, just looking at winning the initial Combat roll-off, including Parrys. Out of 10 rolls, the Captain won 1. I don't know how representative that is mathematically, but even with the Parrys the Captain looks ****ed.

Trick was to use psychic powers and that to buff the Captain.

I’d need to dig me cards out, but Quickening and Iron Arm seem to present themselves as possible answers, but that might’ve been only cast on the Librarian.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So what if there's a lot of datasheets if you can't take more than one captain?

"Bloat is okay because your actual army will have less rules than actually exist" was never an argument I thought I would read.

Sure, sure. That's what I said.

It had nothing to do with the simple fact that we are more likely than not to see a cap on specific keyworded character types. Nope. None.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Trick was to use psychic powers and that to buff the Captain.

I’d need to dig me cards out, but Quickening and Iron Arm seem to present themselves as possible answers, but that might’ve been only cast on the Librarian.

Totally, but it's well beyond the original point now, which is SM hero inflation over the years. Or just Space Marine inflation in general, while other things have deflated.

You get kind of weird effects in reality though from the multiple combats rule though don't you?

So say the Captain charges in with 5 Tactical Marines. Barring an incredibly run of 1s the Tactical Marines all get mulched. But now that SM Captain gets to fight with +5 to their attacks and +5 to their combat resolution.

So SM Captain could now win big and away you go.

Tyel wrote:
You get kind of weird effects in reality though from the multiple combats rule though don't you?

So say the Captain charges in with 5 Tactical Marines. Barring an incredibly run of 1s the Tactical Marines all get mulched. But now that SM Captain gets to fight with +5 to their attacks and +5 to their combat resolution.

So SM Captain could now win big and away you go.

That works too. But it's not a duel then

 Insectum7 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
You get kind of weird effects in reality though from the multiple combats rule though don't you?

So say the Captain charges in with 5 Tactical Marines. Barring an incredibly run of 1s the Tactical Marines all get mulched. But now that SM Captain gets to fight with +5 to their attacks and +5 to their combat resolution.

So SM Captain could now win big and away you go.

That works too. But it's not a duel then

Yes exactly, the original quote was that 2nd ed marine character stats were capable of going toe to toe with a bloodthirster or avatar.

That's clearly not true.

Moving the goal posts is pointless. You might as well say' marine captains can defeat bloodthirsters because their battleship shot it'...


This is one of my pet peeves about people dumping on 2nd ed. 40k has become more herohammer than 2nd ed. 2nd ed was nowhere near the herohammer people seem to think it was.

A captain would kill more marines in melee in 3rd+ than he did in 2nd ed. He had the potential to kill more in 2nd due to the individual fights, but after the 3rd tactical marine he's unlikely to win the combat as each subsequent marine would be WS7+ and roll 7+ attacks. While a terminator honours captain in 3rd ed with two weapons and charging got 6 attacks that could easily kill 3+ marines in one turn.


And modern 9th ed is far more herohammer than 3rd or 2nd...

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Consolidation is a good thing,
Consolidation also can improve balance. There i said it.

Here's hoping they at least consolidate the marine datasheets. Otherwise we might see the 'Oops! All Captains' army running around.

But how else are we supposed to differentiate a Gravis Captain with a Bolt Rifle + Sword vs a Gravis Captain with a sword and Boltstorm Gauntlet?

If we are unlucky, GW will continue to provide datasheets by the Sales Box rather than the unit.

If we are slightly lucky, they will consolidate by the armor so that we get Captain, Captain in Terminator Armor, Primaris Captain, Captain in Gravis Armor, Captain in Phobos Armor.

Lucky will mean Primaris Captain & Captain will be consolidated.

Extra lucky will be a rule stating, "all units with the Captain keyword count as one datasheet for the purposes of the number of times you may add a datasheet to your army list".

2nd Ed was the days when a Genestealer could challenge a Marine Captain in combat, and two Genestealers were almost assured to win. 3? Captain is toast!

The old Genestealer Cult list for Necromunda had Genestealers, and they could get advances. You could have WS10 Genestealers running around.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So what if there's a lot of datasheets if you can't take more than one captain?

"Bloat is okay because your actual army will have less rules than actually exist" was never an argument I thought I would read.

90% of your arguments on this forum boil down to 'bloat is okay as long as it makes me personally feel like the game is more of a milsim, even if what's actually happening is landraiders immobilizing themselves on small shrubs.

ERJAK wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So what if there's a lot of datasheets if you can't take more than one captain?

"Bloat is okay because your actual army will have less rules than actually exist" was never an argument I thought I would read.

90% of your arguments on this forum boil down to 'bloat is okay as long as it makes me personally feel like the game is more of a milsim, even if what's actually happening is landraiders immobilizing themselves on small shrubs.

I don't think you know what bloat means.

And I see fewer posts from Unit pining for old mechanics than I see from you making confident assertions about why old mechanics were universally terrible because you personally didn't like them, so watch out throwing those stones in your glass house.

ERJAK wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So what if there's a lot of datasheets if you can't take more than one captain?

"Bloat is okay because your actual army will have less rules than actually exist" was never an argument I thought I would read.

90% of your arguments on this forum boil down to 'bloat is okay as long as it makes me personally feel like the game is more of a milsim, even if what's actually happening is landraiders immobilizing themselves on small shrubs.

If you marked "small shrubs" as Difficult Terrain, then that's on you. And I seriously doubt that you ever did that. Please stop being disingenuous, ERJAK.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.

Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.

I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
2nd Ed was the days when a Genestealer could challenge a Marine Captain in combat, and two Genestealers were almost assured to win. 3? Captain is toast!

The old Genestealer Cult list for Necromunda had Genestealers, and they could get advances. You could have WS10 Genestealers running around.

That was where Calgar came in with his anti-swarm rules.

Also I'd like to suggest we quit using "bloat" unironically. "Bloat" has turned into a catchall for "What I don't like" and nobody is taking it seriously anymore.

Breton wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.

Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.

I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.

Eyuup. Loyalist. Traitor. It doesn't matter. A marine should need help from other Marines in dealing with something like a Greater Daemon. Marines should work as squads. Not as Armies of One.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.

Eyuup. Loyalist. Traitor. It doesn't matter. A marine should need help from other Marines in dealing with something like a Greater Daemon. Marines should work as squads. Not as Armies of One.

A Bloodthirster can easily kill a Captain, a Captain has a really hard time killing a Bloodthirster. Sooo, mission accomplished? We're talking Bloodthirster killing the Captain in one turn on average and the Captain killing the Bloodthirster in 4.

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.

A Marine is, at most, maybe 9’ tall.
A Marine is, at most, S5 base-on par with a Bloodletter, the lesser daemon of Khorne.
A Marine is physical-with physical limits.

A Bloodthirster is about the size of a Questoris Knight.
A Bloodthirster is ordinarily base S8.
A Bloodthirster is not bound by material rules, being a Daemon.

I won’t say “A captain can NEVER beat a Bloodthirster,” because sometimes you get really lucky, and the other side gets the opposite.
But are you honestly saying that a Captain should be able to expect to go toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster and come out on top?

Breton wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.

Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.

I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?

Because different factions can have different things?

Oh no, sorry, I mean of course Marines should just have everything other factions have. /sarcasm

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.

Eyuup. Loyalist. Traitor. It doesn't matter. A marine should need help from other Marines in dealing with something like a Greater Daemon. Marines should work as squads. Not as Armies of One.

Good thing the armies aren't all Captains and Lords then, huh?

Breton wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.

There's only so far those take...

Beside. Greater daemon hundreds of thousand years old has marine covered. So YOU are claiming age and experience doesn'' matter.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
2nd Ed was the days when a Genestealer could challenge a Marine Captain in combat, and two Genestealers were almost assured to win. 3? Captain is toast!

The old Genestealer Cult list for Necromunda had Genestealers, and they could get advances. You could have WS10 Genestealers running around.

It was a very silly, very glorious time to be involved for sure.

I kind of feel like Emil Blonski in that regard. If I took what I had now models and budget wise, and put it in the body of rules GW had thirty years ago, that would be someone I wouldn't want to fight.

Because it would be Off The Charts Awesome! Liked random sick and rad Guitar riffs every time I did anything. Like in a 90’s commercial, but not sucky.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Speaking of silly, this thread has somewhat become it.

Certain things aren’t as scary as they were in 2nd Ed, no. A chunk of that was the wholesale ditching of proper psychology rules, where the sight of a Carnifex devouring colleagues is met with a polite round of applause and an orderly queue, rather than pants filling terror. Where suddenly nobody is at all bothered about being set on fire.

Sod it. I’m gonna finish off my vintage rules collections and see if I can’t get a Sad Old Git Society going in Folkestone. 2nd Ed 40K and Epic would be my preference. Only three Codexes and Titan Legions to go!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.

Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.

I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

This isn't necessarily true. Especially in a grimdark setting there are other (and supposedly more prevalent) tools to make a fight super-dramatic despite matching power levels. In fact, I would say grimdark works the best when the power levels are sufficiently blurry, so you can't bet on a random Greater Daemon stopping the Space Marine Captain from dooming the galaxy with an unthinkable calamity.

I think the real concern is that the game is designed so assault units - be they SM Captains, Bloodthirsters, Howling Banshees or Abberants etc act like missiles. They charge, they hopefully kill what they hit (and given the issues of getting across the table they need to or else won't see play), they then get shot/charged and die themselves. So the only thing really to do is put more and more explosive power into that missile - so yeah that boosted SM Captain can take out a Knight. Otherwise you just run into the Knight's kneecap, bounce, and die achieving nothing.

A more widespread adoption of rules that cap wounds lost per phase/turn could perhaps facilitate longer duels. But I feel this is generally a major divergence from how 40k is designed and played today.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.

Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.

I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

This isn't necessarily true. Especially in a grimdark setting there are other (and supposedly more prevalent) tools to make a fight super-dramatic despite matching power levels. In fact, I would say grimdark works the best when the power levels are sufficiently blurry, so you can't bet on a random Greater Daemon stopping the Space Marine Captain from dooming the galaxy with an unthinkable calamity.

That's a bit of a wild take. I think most people who are pro- *or* anti- grimdark as a genre would agree that it usually wallows in themes such as hopeless striving, fatalism, inevitable outcomes, material conditions that overwhelm individual desires/objectives, brute realism that extinguishes idealism/ambition, etc.

You're simply describing what has to happen in a grimdark setting that is perpetually ongoing, not an actual artfully constructed narrative, and thus can never conclude in ultimate disaster. But an endless series of shroedinger's duels is absolutely not a marker of grimdark, or a desirable quality in any genre (except, perhaps, anime)

 Altruizine wrote:

Spoiler:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Breton wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Back in the day, a Space Marine captain had almost no hope of defeating some of these things, like Bloodthirsters, Avatars, Hive Tyrants etc.

Back in the day, Space Marine Captains had a base Weapon Skill 7, Strength 5, Toughness 5 without special armor to access it and had access to wargear that let them easily go toe to toe with a Greater Daemon.

I'm still curious why the Marine centerpiece model shouldn't be able to go toe-to-toe with the Daemon centerpiece model. Because its Marines and they're icky?

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

This isn't necessarily true. Especially in a grimdark setting there are other (and supposedly more prevalent) tools to make a fight super-dramatic despite matching power levels. In fact, I would say grimdark works the best when the power levels are sufficiently blurry, so you can't bet on a random Greater Daemon stopping the Space Marine Captain from dooming the galaxy with an unthinkable calamity.

You're simply describing what has to happen in a grimdark setting that is perpetually ongoing, not an actual artfully constructed narrative, and thus can never conclude in ultimate disaster.

It obviously shouldn't conclude in anything, because the whole point of grimdark is that the ultimate disaster is the ongoing present that will never end. And any attempt to end it fails because all sides are equally matched, so it is only hopeless striving, inevitable failures, as well as overwhelming conditions and brutal realism that extinguishes idealism/ambition. Be it for a Space Marine Captain or a Greater Daemon, tho these are poor examples because they are supposed to be the devils of the inescapable hell and not its victims, so their (indecisive and thus unending) fighting is what makes the world terrible and not have the capacity to actually change it regardless of the (improbable) victor. In this thought experiment, it would be more accurate to say that a Feral World warrior who becomes the hero of his tribe by defeating some evil raiders shouldn't be able to take on a Space Marine Captain or a Greater Daemon. Or a Guardsman, for that matter.