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Were it any other faction besides than Marines, I might agree with you.

I'm mostly just curious about how the Gladius Strike Force is organized.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were it any other faction besides than Marines, I might agree with you.

I think the goal is to avoid stacking faction rules on detachment rules so there will be some sacrifices made to keep things simple.

 Asmodai wrote:
At least from what's previewed, there aren't that many to remember:

Firing Deck X – X embarked models can fire while embarked.

Important to note - that's fire with ONE weapon - keep in mind for units like Desolators with two "guns"

Weapon Rules

Anti-[KW] X+ - Automatically does Critical Wound to [Key Word] on Wound roll of X+.

One of the first things I'm looking for is what a Critical Wound is vs a Mortal Wound.

Blast – +1 Attack for every 5 models in target unit.

Certainly looks like they're trying to push people out of MSU.

Devastating Wounds – Deal Mortal Wounds instead on Critical Wounds.


Psychic – Just keyword?

Rapid Fire X - When targeting unit within ½ range, increase attack characteristic by X.

Sustained Hits X – Critical Hits generate X additional hits.

Torrent – Attacks automatically hit target.

Twin-Linked – Reroll wound rolls.

This one might have a pretty significant impact on "The Meta™" Redemptors (at least one probably all)now have TL Stormbolters, Aggressors have one TL gun fist, as opposed to two less accurate ones, Various Bikes, Assorted Tanks with two+ of the same gun in a turret(think Razorbacks, Land Raiders(both), Gladiators, Big Bugs, etc

Most will probably be second nature after a few games.

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Slipspace wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Not a fan of GW keeping the silly number of attacks on big models. 21 attacks for a single model just feels unnecessary.

There's definitely still a learning curve when it comes to the USRs, but I don't think it'll take long to get used to them. It looks like there'll be a fairly small set of ones that are very common.

I very much doubt he'll be swinging both of those.

I'm not so sure. We've seen other weapons with the "each time you attack choose one" text and this doesn't have it. There may be a general rule to prevent use of more than 1 CC weapon, I suppose. In that case 14 attacks is still too many for my liking, but that ship has clearly sailed.

Yeah, the Screamer Killer and Guilliman both are a little wild in Close Combat. I strongly suspect this edition is going to have a hefty dose of Hero Hammer with it. I would have preferred fewer attacks and more shooting on the Hand.


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Dudeface wrote:

Slipspace wrote:


Conversely it sort of felt like Gman wasn't really up to much by the end of the edition though, if they put their metaphorical best foot forwards and decide day 1 that Primarchs are to be fighters to be afraid of, with a price tag to boot, I'm ok with that. It's something I want to see all the factions get a little of in honesty, why shouldn't the Avatar of Kahine be a 500pt monstrosity who shurgs off fire and eats marines for breakfast even in a realm of reduced lethality?

Its not just G - go check out the Screamer Killer. 10A - I have a sneaking suspicion they're going to try and push us out of MSU and the counter to it will be the Monsters/Monstrous guys.

Breton wrote:
Certainly looks like they're trying to push people out of MSU.

Given how all you needed was 6 models in 9th to be considered a "horde", and how taking a 6th model in a unit of 5 would mean a sudden jump in effectiveness for blast weaponry, it's a really good thing that they've toned it down and made is scale based on unit size rather than arbitrary cut-off points.

It's one thing to take an 11th model in a unit of Gaunts and see blast weapons suddenly get full shots at you, vs taking an 11th model and only suffering one extra hit.

Dudeface wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


That's for ranged weapons. The rules will say 'choose one weapon' to fight in melee. The reason it's different is because a model can shoot many ranged weapons whereas melee can officially be just one.

That doesn't seem quite right, there are plenty of melee weapons in 9th that provided additional attacks.

Unless we get an USR for additional attacks.

There were, his weapons aren't shown to be either of those. The extra attacks in 9th are from the model carrying them and granted outside of normal allowances, via an additional rule on the gear. Currently no reason to assume he gets to use both as you can't technically use more than 1 now.

More so, that was closer to a special rule than a weapon usage. You got to make one (extra) attack with a chainsword for carrying a chainsword. So you could use your power sword for 2, then get a bonus attack with your chainsword for 1 - kind of like Digital Weapons.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Were it any other faction besides than Marines, I might agree with you.

Ah yes. Others are fine being balanced, marines need to get layer upon layer upon layer of free rules so even bad players can win.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Breton wrote:
Certainly looks like they're trying to push people out of MSU.

Given how all you needed was 6 models in 9th to be considered a "horde", and how taking a 6th model in a unit of 5 would mean a sudden jump in effectiveness for blast weaponry, it's a really good thing that they've toned it down and made is scale based on unit size rather than arbitrary cut-off points.

It's one thing to take an 11th model in a unit of Gaunts and see blast weapons suddenly get full shots at you, vs taking an 11th model and only suffering one extra hit.

Yep blast was bad. But that's not the only way they're nudging us.

Old Lieutenant:

Buffed every (eventually CORE) unit within 6"

Joins a unit - only buffs that unit.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Seems rather limiting to me.

Doctrines seem... well... intrinsic to Marines. They're doctrines.

Oaths of Moment seem more like something that wouldn't be present all the time.

Give it an edition: Doctrines started Codex/UM only and exploded out to the rest of them in the next edition. There are a number of concepts GW doesn't let go of.

Breton wrote:


Anti-[KW] X+ - Automatically does Critical Wound to [Key Word] on Wound roll of X+.
One of the first things I'm looking for is what a Critical Wound is vs a Mortal Wound.

Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Chainfist attacking t15 vehicle needing 5+? No biggie. Any roll of 3+ wounds.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

if it is only this, it is the most complicated way to write it into rules

USR A: successful wounds on x+ against Keyword ignoring the targets toughness

GW-USR A: on a wound roll of X+ against Keyword see USR B what happens

someone did not understood why people hated GW-USRs in the first place

tneva82 wrote:

Breton wrote:


Anti-[KW] X+ - Automatically does Critical Wound to [Key Word] on Wound roll of X+.
One of the first things I'm looking for is what a Critical Wound is vs a Mortal Wound.

Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Chainfist attacking t15 vehicle needing 5+? No biggie. Any roll of 3+ wounds.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

That still doesn't explain what a Critical Wound is. I mean a Wound, a Critical Wound, a Mortal Wound? A Wound can armor save, a Mortal Wound can't, what happens to a Critical Wound?

tneva82 wrote:
Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Which everything already does on a 6 anyway... so I wonder what the point of this is.

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Breton wrote:


Anti-[KW] X+ - Automatically does Critical Wound to [Key Word] on Wound roll of X+.
One of the first things I'm looking for is what a Critical Wound is vs a Mortal Wound.

Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Chainfist attacking t15 vehicle needing 5+? No biggie. Any roll of 3+ wounds.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

That still doesn't explain what a Critical Wound is. I mean a Wound, a Critical Wound, a Mortal Wound? A Wound can armor save, a Mortal Wound can't, what happens to a Critical Wound?

A critical wound is defined as a wound that happens regardless of modifiers off the top of my head. Under most circumstances a 6 to wound is a critical wound unless modified by a USR such as anti-whatever.

Breton wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Breton wrote:


Anti-[KW] X+ - Automatically does Critical Wound to [Key Word] on Wound roll of X+.
One of the first things I'm looking for is what a Critical Wound is vs a Mortal Wound.

Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Chainfist attacking t15 vehicle needing 5+? No biggie. Any roll of 3+ wounds.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/04/just-how-tough-are-terminators-in-the-new-edition-of-warhammer-40000/

That still doesn't explain what a Critical Wound is. I mean a Wound, a Critical Wound, a Mortal Wound? A Wound can armor save, a Mortal Wound can't, what happens to a Critical Wound?

The article literally says. Automatic wound usually archieved by unmodified 6.

You did read whole article right? Read again.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Which everything already does on a 6 anyway... so I wonder what the point of this is.

It's a defining term so it can be used in other contexts. Otherwise you'd be saying things like 'treat as if a 6 to wound' or something

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Which everything already does on a 6 anyway... so I wonder what the point of this is.

It's effectively a keyword they can hang other effects on - so if you achieve a Critical Wound, Y happens.

Than it should write: Critical Wound on x+ instead of natural 6

Why it needs to be "automatically"

For people wondering why GW is parading this "Reduced lethality" and then showing these huge profiles, well that's because with the spoilers we had so far, the lethality is indeed reduced.

Don't look at profiles, those were never the reason nor the issue.

Reasons why the lethality is down:

- Reduced AP: Some may say that it isn't true looking at the profiles, but in reality SM had the doctrines slapped on them as a last minute fix to increase their AP. Losing the old doctrines already means losing a point of AP. In addition to this they are losing more AP on some weapons.

- Harder pile in: Less models will fight in a melee. Also, models can only fight in B2B with the enemy, so if your unit is in a terrain element, the amount of models which get to fight are severely reduced. Melee fights will most of the times take multiple turns to resolve.

- Games start at 0 CP: No stratagems turn 1 and probably turn 2. Not even Gman is giving bonus CP this time. No Veterans of the long war, or huge mobility stratagems or whatever.

- Harder vehicles: Yes a lot of weapons also gained strength buffs, but all the mid class weapons didn't. An heavy bolter is still strength 5 and will wound your vehicles on a 6. Power fists are still strength 8 and so on.

- Easy cover: With the current cover rules, your big models will pretty much be always in cover. A land raider saves a -4 AP weapon on 5+, or even 4+ with the stratagem.

- Less rerolls: Yes they are less. So far we have seen ZERO rerolls in Tyranids. We saw them only in Marines and I think one in Eldar. Most of those rerolls are also tied to Oath of the Moment, which is only a codex marine thing. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Space wolves don't have that faction rule. So yes, the codax compliant chapters get to keep their rerolls. That's fine, it is something that defines them. Doesn't mean that the other 25 factions keep their "Reroll everything everytime".

2cp/battle round isn't no stratagems t1/t2. 3/4 cp not enough to use?

Guilliman might not give cp but gives free stratagem per turn, even if stratagem been used. If there's any 2cp stratagems that's 2cp saved

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Automatically wounds whether or not roll matched what s vs t comparison says.

Which everything already does on a 6 anyway... so I wonder what the point of this is.

We've already seen abilities like Devastating Wounds, that turn the weapon's damage into Mortal Wounds when they get a Critical Wound. Writing it this way allows them to combine those effects when they want, without extra wording to say so. There will likely be other effects that key off of Critical Wounds.

I don't think Critical Wounds are really a USR, more of a core gameplay mechanic like "6s always hit".

Spoletta wrote:
For people wondering why GW is parading this "Reduced lethality" and then showing these huge profiles, well that's because with the spoilers we had so far, the lethality is indeed reduced.

Don't look at profiles, those were never the reason nor the issue.

Reasons why the lethality is down:

- Reduced AP: Some may say that it isn't true looking at the profiles, but in reality SM had the doctrines slapped on them as a last minute fix to increase their AP. Losing the old doctrines already means losing a point of AP. In addition to this they are losing more AP on some weapons.

- Harder pile in: Less models will fight in a melee. Also, models can only fight in B2B with the enemy, so if your unit is in a terrain element, the amount of models which get to fight are severely reduced. Melee fights will most of the times take multiple turns to resolve.

- Games start at 0 CP: No stratagems turn 1 and probably turn 2. Not even Gman is giving bonus CP this time. No Veterans of the long war, or huge mobility stratagems or whatever.

- Harder vehicles: Yes a lot of weapons also gained strength buffs, but all the mid class weapons didn't. An heavy bolter is still strength 5 and will wound your vehicles on a 6. Power fists are still strength 8 and so on.

- Easy cover: With the current cover rules, your big models will pretty much be always in cover. A land raider saves a -4 AP weapon on 5+, or even 4+ with the stratagem.

- Less rerolls: Yes they are less. So far we have seen ZERO rerolls in Tyranids. We saw them only in Marines and I think one in Eldar. Most of those rerolls are also tied to Oath of the Moment, which is only a codex marine thing. Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, Deathwatch and Space wolves don't have that faction rule. So yes, the codax compliant chapters get to keep their rerolls. That's fine, it is something that defines them. Doesn't mean that the other 25 factions keep their "Reroll everything everytime".

This is the right answer. People like to focus on big number units and scream that lethality hasn't gone down, but overall infantry weapons that got AP in last edition are being scaled back and toughness of many models are going up. This also helps to create a clear distinction of lethality between a single marine and god like heroes like Roboute.

I'm a little out of the loop in regards to the new system of army building, particularly with all the mentions of the Gladius Strike Force. Could someone explain?

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm a little out of the loop in regards to the new system of army building, particularly with all the mentions of the Gladius Strike Force. Could someone explain?

Nowadays each army is from both a Faction (i.e. Space Marines) and a Detachment (i.e. Gladius Strike Force). Your Faction determines your Faction ability, which for Space Marines is 'Oath of Moment'. Your Detachment determines what Enhancements and Stratagems you can take, and gives you a Detachment ability, which for the Gladius Strike Force is Combat Doctrines.

Thus, any Space Marine force will always have Oath of the Moomins, but the Detachment abilities, Enhancements and Stratagems vary depending on the Detachment you chose.

Apparently, at release, every Faction will only get one Detachment to start out, but the Codexes will bring more.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm a little out of the loop in regards to the new system of army building, particularly with all the mentions of the Gladius Strike Force. Could someone explain?

Step 1: Select Faction (Army) - in this case Space Marines. You get the Faction Ability for that faction (for Marines Oath of Moment).

Step 2: Select Detachment. In this case Gladius Strike Force. The detachment gives you a Detachment Ability (Doctrines for this Strike Force) as well as access to 6 strategems and 4 character enhancements (think the old relics and warlord traits).

Step 3: Choose units, generally with a maximum of 3 of any one unit, up to your points limit. Assign one or two character enhancements to characters (max 1 per character).

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm a little out of the loop in regards to the new system of army building, particularly with all the mentions of the Gladius Strike Force. Could someone explain?

Nowadays each army is from both a Faction (i.e. Space Marines) and a Detachment (i.e. Gladius Strike Force). Your Faction determines your Faction ability, which for Space Marines is 'Oath of Moment'. Your Detachment determines what Enhancements and Stratagems you can take, and gives you a Detachment ability, which for the Gladius Strike Force is Combat Doctrines.

Thus, any Space Marine force will always have Oath of the Moomins, but the Detachment abilities, Enhancements and Stratagems vary depending on the Detachment you chose.

Apparently, at release, every Faction will only get one Detachment to start out, but the Codexes will bring more.

So in the Marine book you could have say, the Gladius Strike Force, the Rapier Hunter Force and the Venator Kill Squad, replacing the FOC we now have?

 Valkyrie wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm a little out of the loop in regards to the new system of army building, particularly with all the mentions of the Gladius Strike Force. Could someone explain?

Nowadays each army is from both a Faction (i.e. Space Marines) and a Detachment (i.e. Gladius Strike Force). Your Faction determines your Faction ability, which for Space Marines is 'Oath of Moment'. Your Detachment determines what Enhancements and Stratagems you can take, and gives you a Detachment ability, which for the Gladius Strike Force is Combat Doctrines.

Thus, any Space Marine force will always have Oath of the Moomins, but the Detachment abilities, Enhancements and Stratagems vary depending on the Detachment you chose.

Apparently, at release, every Faction will only get one Detachment to start out, but the Codexes will bring more.

So in the Marine book you could have say, the Gladius Strike Force, the Rapier Hunter Force and the Venator Kill Squad, replacing the FOC we now have?

Yeah, the general idea seems to be that Detachments can (but must not necessarily) come with all sorts of restrictions, but give you theme-appropriate Stratagems and things as a reward. There is no real FOC anymore, just the rule of three, and needing at least one character.

 Valkyrie wrote:
So in the Marine book you could have say, the Gladius Strike Force, the Rapier Hunter Force and the Venator Kill Squad, replacing the FOC we now have?

There will be no FOC or battle roles. The only restrictions in place are whether you can play a unit once, thrice or six times. (see here)

10th Edition detachments will give your army
1) a detachment ability like Oath of Moment or Hyper Adaptations Combat Doctrines. These will be what we currently know as "subfaction rules", but they will be disconnected from your paint scheme.
2) about 6-8 stratagems. These are the only faction specific stratagems you will be able to use in addition to the 11 from the basic rulebook, and the focus will be on reactive stratagems.
3) 3-5 Enhancements. Enhancement combine relics, warlord traits and special psychic powers.

There might be additional limitations imposed on you by choosing a detachment, but that is highly unlikely for the index ones.

edit: mixed up faction abilities with detachment abilities

Jidmah wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
So in the Marine book you could have say, the Gladius Strike Force, the Rapier Hunter Force and the Venator Kill Squad, replacing the FOC we now have?

There will be no FOC or battle roles. The only restrictions in place are whether you can play a unit once, thrice or six times. (see here)

10th Edition detachments will give your army
1) a detachment ability like Oath of Moment or Hyper Adaptations. These will be what we currently know as "subfaction rules", but they will be disconnected from your paint scheme. (see here)
2) about 6-8 stratagems. These are the only faction specific stratagems you will be able to use in addition to the 11 from the basic rulebook, and the focus will be on reactive stratagems.
3) 3-5 Enhancements. Enhancement combine relics, warlord traits and special psychic powers.

There might be additional limitations imposed on you by choosing a detachment, but that is highly unlikely for the index ones.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm a little out of the loop in regards to the new system of army building, particularly with all the mentions of the Gladius Strike Force. Could someone explain?

Nowadays each army is from both a Faction (i.e. Space Marines) and a Detachment (i.e. Gladius Strike Force). Your Faction determines your Faction ability, which for Space Marines is 'Oath of Moment'. Your Detachment determines what Enhancements and Stratagems you can take, and gives you a Detachment ability, which for the Gladius Strike Force is Combat Doctrines.

Thus, any Space Marine force will always have Oath of the Moomins, but the Detachment abilities, Enhancements and Stratagems vary depending on the Detachment you chose.

Apparently, at release, every Faction will only get one Detachment to start out, but the Codexes will bring more.

So in the Marine book you could have say, the Gladius Strike Force, the Rapier Hunter Force and the Venator Kill Squad, replacing the FOC we now have?

Yeah, the general idea seems to be that Detachments can (but must not necessarily) come with all sorts of restrictions, but give you theme-appropriate Stratagems and things as a reward. There is no real FOC anymore, just the rule of three, and needing at least one character.

I see, thanks for the clarification

 Jidmah wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
So in the Marine book you could have say, the Gladius Strike Force, the Rapier Hunter Force and the Venator Kill Squad, replacing the FOC we now have?

There will be no FOC or battle roles. The only restrictions in place are whether you can play a unit once, thrice or six times. (see here)

10th Edition detachments will give your army
1) a detachment ability like Oath of Moment or Hyper Adaptations. These will be what we currently know as "subfaction rules", but they will be disconnected from your paint scheme. (see here)
2) about 6-8 stratagems. These are the only faction specific stratagems you will be able to use in addition to the 11 from the basic rulebook, and the focus will be on reactive stratagems.
3) 3-5 Enhancements. Enhancement combine relics, warlord traits and special psychic powers.

There might be additional limitations imposed on you by choosing a detachment, but that is highly unlikely for the index ones.

One quick correction: there will be two abilities - Faction and Detachment. Oath of Moment is a Faction ability and will always apply to all SM regardless of which detachment they take. Combat Doctrines is the Gladius Strike Force Detachment Ability and will apply if you take that Detachment, in addition to OoM.

I'm pretty sure GW said you could only take one Detachment, but I can't find the specific quote at the moment. It also remains to be seen if BA/DA/SW etc get OoM, or have that replaced by their own Faction ability.

Slipspace wrote:
One quick correction: there will be two abilities - Faction and Detachment. Oath of Moment is a Faction ability and will always apply to all SM regardless of which detachment they take. Combat Doctrines is the Gladius Strike Force Detachment Ability and will apply if you take that Detachment, in addition to OoM.

Thanks for correcting, I actually failed to notice that