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 Totalwar1402 wrote:
3rd edition is proper 40k.

Only if you're a true Scotsman!!!

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:Yea I don't think the mechanic works thematically for stuff like Night Lords.

Careful Daed. That sort of statement sometimes makes some people "cranky". Trust me, I know.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends. Half the traitor legions BTW. Basically they don’t like the idea of the villains not being their own men and being pawns of the Chaos Gods. Same reason Archaon is always set up as challenging the Chaos Gods even though he never acts against their interests. So it’s a false conflict just to make the villain seem badass for “defying” the Gods.

Also, I really want to hear the bull explanation for how Perturabo isn’t chaos when he’s a Daemon Primarch on a Daemon World in the Eye of Terror. They’ve really been pushing that in HH and Siege of Terra that he’s his own man.

The 2nd edition Chaos codex (published in 1996) is "recent"? Huh, interesting take.

3rd edition is proper 40k.

My point stands, the only reason they do that for half the legions is to make the villains seem badass for “defying” the Gods. Even though they pray to the Dark Gods, do their rituals, take their weapons and blessings etc etc. All the while going along with the Chaos plan to enslave and exterminate humanity. You know, really pushing back against the will of the gods.

You could just as easily write that Chaos is like the Ring of Power or the Dark Side and corrupts the wielder regardless of their pretensions. But no, that would undermine the badass nature of the villains if you had the Alpha Legion think they’re being clever tricking the eldritch and getting consumed by it. Or Iron Warriors not all being consumed by the Obliterator virus because of their hubris. But no, the Iron Warriors and Perturabo are clever and can use the power of chaos without any problems.

It’s bad story telling and it undermines Chaos as this all corrupting eldritch horror. How can Nurgle instantly corrupt all the Death Guard in a random warp storm but the Night Lords and Alpha Legion can give him the middle finger? Angron has a virus that makes marines instantly go mad with blood rage. You can’t have stuff like that and yet Alpha Legion can handwave chaos corruption because reasons.

Ohhhhhh......3rd edition. Ok, let me see if I can find anything about the 8th Legion's opinion on the Chaos Gods in the 3rd edition codex:

All of the evidence appears to indicate that they do not worship the Chaos Gods and have become instead cynical, hard-bitten, and frighteningly ruthless warriors who fight for the pleasure of fighting and the material rewards it can bring. Some reports imply that this breeds a contemptuous attitude toward their more dedicated brethren, be they fanatical Chaos Space Marines such as Khorne Berzerkers or zealous loyalists like Dark Angels or Ultramarines

Codex Chaos Space Marines (3rd edition): page 31

But hey! What about 3.5?:

Because Night Lords do not worship the Chaos Powers as gods they are reluctant to enter into Daemonic pacts so there are few daemons in their armies

Codex Chaos Space Marines (3rd edition, 3.5): page 42

Huh, reluctant to to enter into Daemonic pacts? Interesting.

Oh damn...

Reluctant implies they have a choice. Chaos turns marines into spawn and corrupts entire chapters and even legions on a whim all the time in the setting. I don’t see why the Night Lords would become immune to chaos whilst being in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years. It’s dumb. None of them should be as they were during the Heresy. They should all be half melted into their armour and mutated in body and spirit.

Also if they’re jaded and cynical then they sure are letting Abaddon and the Chaos Gods have their way with them. I don’t see them doing anything except following the plan of killing Imperials. They’re being cynical by doing what Chaos wants?

Instead the Black Library really want to sell you the idea that Iron Warriors, Black Legion, Alpha Legion and Night Lords can just set the terms of the contract with Chaos. Just a few rituals and picking up a few Daemon blades. Not sure why Khorne could make the World Eaters worship him just because they liked killing things or Slannesh the EC because they enjoyed the work; but Night Lords ohh I am so cynical as I flay this guy. No way Khorne or Slannesh could use that to corrupt a Night Lord. Iron Warriors having Daemon Primarch and guiding demon engines but totally not being Chaos Marines. Alpha Legion literally lying to the Chaos Gods and working to undermine them.

Also “Some reports” which is second hand and deliberately vague. They also say “more devout” which implies some level of Chaos worship.

They don’t worship chaos as Gods. So they worship them as a force. Apples and oranges.

Because genuinely, why don’t the Chaos Gods just kill them? If they’re not Chaos then they’re enemies.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Reluctant implies they have a choice. Chaos turns marines into spawn and corrupts entire chapters and even legions on a whim all the time in the setting. I don’t see why the Night Lords would become immune to chaos whilst being in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years. It’s dumb. None of them should be as they were during the Heresy. They should all be half melted into their armour and mutated in body and spirit.

Also if they’re jaded and cynical then they sure are letting Abaddon and the Chaos Gods have their way with them. I don’t see them doing anything except following the plan of killing Imperials. They’re being cynical by doing what Chaos wants?

Not immune. The above quotations are for the majority of the 8th Legion, but some do follow the Chaos Gods. But those are minority. The issue is that the 10th edition rules seem to imply that it's instead the majority that follow the Chaos Gods. Which specifically goes against the old lore. Which is in direct contradiction to your comment that it's only in the new lore that the majority of the 8th Legion doesn't worship the Chaos Gods.

And killing Imperials doesn't have anything to do with "Chaos". It's just what the Traitor Legions do. How else do you rebel against the Imperium? Send them candy and flowers?

Edit: Oh dear, you made some edits. Do I have to dig up more quotes from old codexes? 6th edition codex? 8th? Index Astartes? Or do you just want to drag those goal posts a little further?

The funny thing about being your own man and defying the chaos gods is that it usually involves doing what the chaos gods want you to do. Railing against your fate and doing everything in your power to take matters into your own hands is technically a prayer to Tzeentch.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Reluctant implies they have a choice. Chaos turns marines into spawn and corrupts entire chapters and even legions on a whim all the time in the setting. I don’t see why the Night Lords would become immune to chaos whilst being in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years. It’s dumb. None of them should be as they were during the Heresy. They should all be half melted into their armour and mutated in body and spirit.

Also if they’re jaded and cynical then they sure are letting Abaddon and the Chaos Gods have their way with them. I don’t see them doing anything except following the plan of killing Imperials. They’re being cynical by doing what Chaos wants?

Not immune. The above quotations are for the majority of the 8th Legion, but some do follow the Chaos Gods. But those are minority. The issue is that the 10th edition rules seem to imply that it's instead the majority that follow the Chaos Gods. Which specifically goes against the old lore. Which is in direct contradiction to your comment that it's only in the new lore that the majority of the 8th Legion doesn't worship the Chaos Gods.

And killing Imperials doesn't have anything to do with "Chaos". It's just what the Traitor Legions do. How else do you rebel against the Imperium? Send them candy and flowers?

Because when they’re in the Eye of Terror, the Chaos Gods can like, easily corrupt and kill them…Like it does not make sense that strong independent Night Lords can use Daemon weapons, Daemon engines and live in the Eye of Terror without being consumed by Chaos.

Especially because completely non religious legions like World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Emperors Children were corrupted into worshipping the Dark Gods because of their evil nature. So why would the torturing flaying and self centred terror troops not fall to Chaos?

Like if they aren’t Chaos. Which for Alpha Legion they’ve explicitly said they aren’t. Then why are the Chaos Gods not working to corrupt these guys and destroy them like they do everything else?

TBH I don’t know why you’re focusing the argument at Night Lords when I am taking more of a swipe at Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Black Legion. Recent lore is definitely pushing the idea that they are not worshipping Chaos and just using it as a tool. Dawn of Fire, The Black Legion Series, HH, Siege of Terra; they all address it for those 3. Night Lords, not mentioned as much.

Well first he said that Night Lords don't, and gave an example.

You replied with "That doesn't count! Only 3rd Ed counts!", so he provided not one but two quotes from 3rd Ed supporting his position. You continued to argue against this, and now are trying on the "I don't know why you're talking about Night Lords. I'm not!" play?

There was a great ironic joke about people losing arguments, where someone yelled "Dig up, idiot!" (the joke being that they were only making things worse for themselves, so they should dig in the opposite direction, something one cannot do ).

Stop digging. You aren't winning this one. Some might even go so far as to say you've already lost.

“Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends. Half the traitor legions BTW. Basically they don’t like the idea of the villains not being their own men and being pawns of the Chaos Gods. Same reason Archaon is always set up as challenging the Chaos Gods even though he never acts against their interests. So it’s a false conflict just to make the villain seem badass for “defying” the Gods. “

Mate, that’s the original reply. Night Lords are mentioned as an afterthought after I rattle off Black Legion, Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion.

You lot are focusing on Night Lords and it’s like a quarter of the legions I was listing and far from the worst offender.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Reluctant implies they have a choice. Chaos turns marines into spawn and corrupts entire chapters and even legions on a whim all the time in the setting. I don’t see why the Night Lords would become immune to chaos whilst being in the Eye of Terror for ten thousand years. It’s dumb. None of them should be as they were during the Heresy. They should all be half melted into their armour and mutated in body and spirit.

Also if they’re jaded and cynical then they sure are letting Abaddon and the Chaos Gods have their way with them. I don’t see them doing anything except following the plan of killing Imperials. They’re being cynical by doing what Chaos wants?

Not immune. The above quotations are for the majority of the 8th Legion, but some do follow the Chaos Gods. But those are minority. The issue is that the 10th edition rules seem to imply that it's instead the majority that follow the Chaos Gods. Which specifically goes against the old lore. Which is in direct contradiction to your comment that it's only in the new lore that the majority of the 8th Legion doesn't worship the Chaos Gods.

And killing Imperials doesn't have anything to do with "Chaos". It's just what the Traitor Legions do. How else do you rebel against the Imperium? Send them candy and flowers?

Because when they’re in the Eye of Terror, the Chaos Gods can like, easily corrupt and kill them…Like it does not make sense that strong independent Night Lords can use Daemon weapons, Daemon engines and live in the Eye of Terror without being consumed by Chaos.

Especially because completely non religious legions like World Eaters, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Emperors Children were corrupted into worshipping the Dark Gods because of their evil nature. So why would the torturing flaying and self centred terror troops not fall to Chaos?

Like if they aren’t Chaos. Which for Alpha Legion they’ve explicitly said they aren’t. Then why are the Chaos Gods not working to corrupt these guys and destroy them like they do everything else?

TBH I don’t know why you’re focusing the argument at Night Lords when I am taking more of a swipe at Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Black Legion. Recent lore is definitely pushing the idea that they are not worshipping Chaos and just using it as a tool. Dawn of Fire, The Black Legion Series, HH, Siege of Terra; they all address it for those 3. Night Lords, not mentioned as much.

Well, they don't generally use those things according to the old lore (though some do), including the most pivotal Night Lords novels/short stories (both 40k and 30k). That's why it's "not mentioned much". It's because it's already been mentioned over and over.

And the Chaos Gods do try, they just don't always succeed (Talos says "Hi").

And I'm focusing on the 8th Legion because I've played them for 20 years and one of the primary reasons that I was drawn to them was their "No Gods, No Masters" attitude and you chose to include them in your "take". I'll leave the other Undivided Legions for their respective fans

So chaos can turn 4 marine legions who have no interest in religion to worship them; but not the Night Lords? Because, what, the World Eaters had less of a wilful and cynical attitude? Because Emperors Children were more given to cruelty and indulgence? Because they would never get themselves stuck in a warp storm like Death Guard over ten thousand years? Because the Gods would never manages to outsmart them like they did the Thousand Sons.

It doesn’t make any sense and you’ve even said that it’s just to give them the appeal of being their own men. Despite that not having any negative consequences like, I dunno, the rest of Chaos deciding to kill them because they’re not Chaos.

That’s having your cake and eating it. Where you can say they’re under the umbrella of the Chaos faction, despite not being Chaos and actively despising it.

Like if they’re Chaos Space Marines, but they aren’t Chaos then that means they’re just Space Marines. Who are the enemy of Chaos.

Sighhhhh.

Again, you're original point was:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends.

Emphasis mine, of course.

And I've provided ample evidence that it isn't "recent lore" that says this for the 8th Legion. In fact it's pretty old lore.

You're just moving goal posts at this point.

“ Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends. Half the traitor legions BTW. Basically they don’t like the idea of the villains not being their own men and being pawns of the Chaos Gods. Same reason Archaon is always set up as challenging the Chaos Gods even though he never acts against their interests. So it’s a false conflict just to make the villain seem badass for “defying” the Gods.
”

Yeah, it’s not my original point. First line. which you conveniently left out, says all Chaos marines should be Chaos Marines. Again. you’re the one trying to steer things away from the main point because you either want to talk about Night Lords or are avoiding the main point that they should all be Chaos Space Marines. That all the silly exceptions and qualifications don’t make sense and are coming from a place of “I want Abaddon and Perturabo to be their own men and punch up at the Chaos Gods”. Well they’ve got a funny way of doing it…

EightFoldPath wrote:
You have got to be trolling us right now... I've clearly explained how you "make" a critical wound. What don't you understand about that?\\

The reason WHY you're doing that after being told several times that was in the teaser and not what people are interested in? - that they want to know more about what you can do with them?

For the pipedream... What does the Imperial Guard Born Soldiers trait do? What did judgement tokens do in the Votann codex and have to be specifically nerfed pre-release before anyone could use them?

Seriously, you can't parse the preview/teaser articles, you can't parse the explanations given and there is now evidence you've missed two of the most significant 9th edition army wide rules of 2023 (or failed to understand them).

You can't parse "not HOW to make them, but what you can DO with them".

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
“ Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends. Half the traitor legions BTW. Basically they don’t like the idea of the villains not being their own men and being pawns of the Chaos Gods. Same reason Archaon is always set up as challenging the Chaos Gods even though he never acts against their interests. So it’s a false conflict just to make the villain seem badass for “defying” the Gods.
”

Yeah, it’s not my original point. First line. which you conveniently left out, says all Chaos marines should be Chaos Marines. Again. you’re the one trying to steer things away from the point.

So, you're "point" is that we should retcon the "old lore" for you're lore? Is that it? Because, as someone who has played the 8th Legion for 20 years, I don't care for your little "retcon".

Keep your hands off of my Legion.

Edit: Another stealth edit! I don't care about Abaddon or Perturabo. I only care about the 8th. Please, pay attention.

Critical Wounds are a keyword.
Other rules will reference them, but on their own, they’re just a normal success.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Critical Wounds are a keyword.
Other rules will reference them, but on their own, they’re just a normal success.

But only on a 6?

Now I'm confused...

DeadliestIdiot wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of the critical hit/wound terminology currently. It puts an extra layer between you and what you need to do. That said, it also strikes me as something that will quickly become obvious even to those of us that only play every now and then, at which point I suspect I'll have a vaguely positive view of them. Time will tell!

It depends on what you can do with them. There's a lot of people trying to pretend to be too stupid to understand the difference between how to make one and what you can do with one right now, but a few people have picked up on the potential with the "keywork" possibilities for "critical" wounds. To me it feels like a a pre-packaged combo that's going to become signature stuff for a few (sub)factions, and probably something a few other subfactions are going to be strictly fenced off from. Old=Poison to New-Critical wound to Mortal Wound interaction may or may not be a good idea for Drukhari. It may be how they're planning on replacing Smite mechanics for Thousand Suns etc. I don't know, but like I said, I'd be pretty interested in knowing more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:

Abby just giving a 4++ aura is also quite sweet.

That was one of the most interesting things. UM have been the poster boys for several editions now, with Abby and the Black Legion being a mirror for the boys in blue - such that Abby was frequently a mirror of Calgar/G - we even see the immediate comparisons to G in this thread. But they just released the Lion, and now one of Abby's abilities is the 4++ Azrael bubble.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
“ Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends. Half the traitor legions BTW. Basically they don’t like the idea of the villains not being their own men and being pawns of the Chaos Gods. Same reason Archaon is always set up as challenging the Chaos Gods even though he never acts against their interests. So it’s a false conflict just to make the villain seem badass for “defying” the Gods.
”

Yeah, it’s not my original point. First line. which you conveniently left out, says all Chaos marines should be Chaos Marines. Again. you’re the one trying to steer things away from the point.

So, you're "point" is that we should retcon the "old lore" for you're lore? Is that it? Because, as someone who has played the 8th Legion for 20 years, I don't care for your little "retcon".
Keep your hands off of my Legion.

They retcon old lore all the time and Night Lords aren’t a major faction so it’s irrelevant anyway if theh make them Chaos worshippers or a meme. They’re just a meme and only exist because they don’t want to make a renegade marines codex.

They shouldn’t be part of the Chaos faction if they hate Chaos. You can’t have one book where marines are bio mechanical horrors melted into their tanks with demonic flesh and then have meme worthy Night Lords the same as they were during the Great Crusade because reasons. It makes no sense.

Whereas Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Black Legion are massive factions who get a lot more exposure in the books and them having the whole “I am not Chaos!” act is a lot more questionable.

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

No, they explained (repeatedly, even after it was pointed out) how to make a critical wound, not what it is. Critical wounds are not unrelated to mortal wounds. In the first place Critical Wounds can become Mortal wounds, in the second place, all wounds are at least tangentially related and are not "unrelated".

You're right, a critical wound is an existentialist concept that, once fully understood, allows you to better foreshadow probability via the quantum plane.

Or, it's a term for "wounds on X defaulting to 6" and you're complicating the everything feth out of an obvious concept in some vain effort to become a leading philosopher of our time.

Or you're just making adhoms out of personal animus or embarassment. Wondering how they're going to implement a new mechanic that appears to replace at least two previous ones in the design of a toy soldiers game isn't all that philosophical.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
“ Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends. Half the traitor legions BTW. Basically they don’t like the idea of the villains not being their own men and being pawns of the Chaos Gods. Same reason Archaon is always set up as challenging the Chaos Gods even though he never acts against their interests. So it’s a false conflict just to make the villain seem badass for “defying” the Gods.
”

Yeah, it’s not my original point. First line. which you conveniently left out, says all Chaos marines should be Chaos Marines. Again. you’re the one trying to steer things away from the point.

So, you're "point" is that we should retcon the "old lore" for you're lore? Is that it? Because, as someone who has played the 8th Legion for 20 years, I don't care for your little "retcon".
Keep your hands off of my Legion.

They retcon old lore all the time and Night Lords aren’t a major faction so it’s irrelevant anyway if theh make them Chaos worshippers or a meme. They’re just a meme and only exist because they don’t want to make a renegade marines codex.

They shouldn’t be part of the Chaos faction if they hate Chaos. You can’t have one book where marines are bio mechanical horrors melted into their tanks with demonic flesh and then have meme worthy Night Lords the same as they were during the Great Crusade because reasons. It makes no sense.

Whereas Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Black Legion are massive factions who get a lot more exposure in the books and them having the whole “I am not Chaos!” act is a lot more questionable.

Except in 3.5 and Traitor Legions, where it worked just fine. And the Liber Hereticus in HH, where the 8th Legion is one of the strongest Legions Hands down.

Yeah, 8th Legion fans aren't just an afterthought, despite you're attempts to argue that.

Other codexes have accomplished this. You're lack of understanding of the Traitor Legions and the previous rules that have represented them notwithstanding.

But please, keep digging that hole. It’s very entertaining.

I think the issue is everyone is getting caught up in the lore of the specific Legions while GW seems to be concentrating on the Chaos Space Marines are a whole. I can't go back nearly as far as some of you and I'm not devotee to the Traitor Astartes, but my 5th Edition Codex says:

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 5th Edition wrote:Chaos Space Marines
Cruel Marauders, Ruthless Overlords -- Traitors all.
The Chaos Space Marines wage war for glory, for adulation, for the joy of battle, for worldly power and spiritual release, and for other reasons too dark for the faithful to comprehend. Chaos Space Marines were once the Imperium's greatest defenders but are now deadly warriors bent on anarchy and destruction. They serve nothing but their own desires and the Gods of the Warp that grant them power to fulfill their depraved ambitions. A warrior of the Chaos Gods hold allegiance only to those more powerful than he is.

Chaos Space Marines are gene-engineered behemoths of war, clad in formidable power armor and wielding weapons forged from human technology and blessed by daemonic patronage. Along with their physiques and unparalleled battlecraft, the Chaos Space Marines are blessed with the gifts of the Dark Gods, and many have otherworldly abilities and strange mutations.

This seems to be the core of what they are building towards in the rules we see: Dark Pacts, Accursed Weapons, Balefire (or Baleflamer), Slaves to Darkness. These guys are not independent operators. They are in league with the Gods of the Warp for good or bad be it willingly, unwillingly, or even unknowingly. They can curse the Gods and claim their independence, but they are still caught up in the web of their machinations.

And while it would have been nice if Dark Pacts was a detachment ability instead of a Faction Trait, I have to wonder what Faction Trait you would give these guys instead of the Dark Pacts they resist yet cannot help but make?

And the 5th edition (aka "late 4th edition") CSM codex is considered the most reviled of all CSM codexes amongst long term fans of the faction. Take of that what you will.

Edit: Got some quotation marks a single word wrong.

 alextroy wrote:
I think the issue is everyone is getting caught up in the lore of the specific Legions while GW seems to be concentrating on the Chaos Space Marines are a whole. I can't go back nearly as far as some of you and I'm not devotee to the Traitor Astartes, but my 5th Edition Codex says:

Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook, 5th Edition wrote:Chaos Space Marines
Cruel Marauders, Ruthless Overlords -- Traitors all.
The Chaos Space Marines wage war for glory, for adulation, for the joy of battle, for worldly power and spiritual release, and for other reasons too dark for the faithful to comprehend. Chaos Space Marines were once the Imperium's greatest defenders but are now deadly warriors bent on anarchy and destruction. They serve nothing but their own desires and the Gods of the Warp that grant them power to fulfill their depraved ambitions. A warrior of the Chaos Gods hold allegiance only to those more powerful than he is.

Chaos Space Marines are gene-engineered behemoths of war, clad in formidable power armor and wielding weapons forged from human technology and blessed by daemonic patronage. Along with their physiques and unparalleled battlecraft, the Chaos Space Marines are blessed with the gifts of the Dark Gods, and many have otherworldly abilities and strange mutations.

This seems to be the core of what they are building towards in the rules we see: Dark Pacts, Accursed Weapons, Balefire (or Baleflamer), Slaves to Darkness. These guys are not independent operators. They are in league with the Gods of the Warp for good or bad be it willingly, unwillingly, or even unknowingly. They can curse the Gods and claim their independence, but they are still caught up in the web of their machinations.

And while it would have been nice if Dark Pacts was a detachment ability instead of a Faction Trait, I have to wonder what Faction Trait you would give these guys instead of the Dark Pacts they resist yet cannot help but make?

Part of the problem is that the Faction Trait for the Black Legion and the Faction Trait for Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors should not be the same. Dark Pacts feels very much like a Word Bearers Faction Trait. (Anyone else wonder how much longer until we see 40K Lorgar?) I'd also question whether these Faction Traits will still be the Faction Trait after we get the eventual Codex. We eventually got new Super Doctrine Faction Traits (of whatever name/application they had for that edition) for Imperial Fists, Ravenguard etc. when we got the Marine codex, and then again when they got their supplements. in the past. They could have picked a better more generic place holder for the release/rollout though and probably should have kept this one in the back pocket for a Word Bearer's release.

I still refer to it as the 'Chaos' Codex to this day, as there was nothing very Chaotic about it, it removed all the Legion rules, virtually every upgrade, and Jervis'd our Daemons. It is rightly hated.

Dark pact is disappointing to me. I see they went for an individual power boost vs the loyalist ability that feels more.. coordinated.
And it's a respectable damage boost. But it's still disappointing as THE army rule. It feels clunky rolling so many leadership tests.

What is funny is that legions like the alpha legion and IW could choose to say eff the dark gods and not make any dark pacts lol.

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

No, they explained (repeatedly, even after it was pointed out) how to make a critical wound, not what it is. Critical wounds are not unrelated to mortal wounds. In the first place Critical Wounds can become Mortal wounds, in the second place, all wounds are at least tangentially related and are not "unrelated".

You're right, a critical wound is an existentialist concept that, once fully understood, allows you to better foreshadow probability via the quantum plane.

Or, it's a term for "wounds on X defaulting to 6" and you're complicating the everything feth out of an obvious concept in some vain effort to become a leading philosopher of our time.

Or you're just making adhoms out of personal animus or embarassment. Wondering how they're going to implement a new mechanic that appears to replace at least two previous ones in the design of a toy soldiers game isn't all that philosophical.

Honestly no embarrassment at all, what mechanics do you think it replaces? As a hint, it doesn't replace anything.

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

No, they explained (repeatedly, even after it was pointed out) how to make a critical wound, not what it is. Critical wounds are not unrelated to mortal wounds. In the first place Critical Wounds can become Mortal wounds, in the second place, all wounds are at least tangentially related and are not "unrelated".

You're right, a critical wound is an existentialist concept that, once fully understood, allows you to better foreshadow probability via the quantum plane.

Or, it's a term for "wounds on X defaulting to 6" and you're complicating the everything feth out of an obvious concept in some vain effort to become a leading philosopher of our time.

Or you're just making adhoms out of personal animus or embarassment. Wondering how they're going to implement a new mechanic that appears to replace at least two previous ones in the design of a toy soldiers game isn't all that philosophical.

Honestly no embarrassment at all, what mechanics do you think it replaces? As a hint, it doesn't replace anything.

Jesus Christ I gotta quote this just so I never lose it.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
“ Yeah they all should worship Chaos.

It’s only recent lore that’s tried to insist that Black Legion, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion and Night Lords; they’re just using Chaos for their own ends. Half the traitor legions BTW. Basically they don’t like the idea of the villains not being their own men and being pawns of the Chaos Gods. Same reason Archaon is always set up as challenging the Chaos Gods even though he never acts against their interests. So it’s a false conflict just to make the villain seem badass for “defying” the Gods.
”

Yeah, it’s not my original point. First line. which you conveniently left out, says all Chaos marines should be Chaos Marines. Again. you’re the one trying to steer things away from the point.

So, you're "point" is that we should retcon the "old lore" for you're lore? Is that it? Because, as someone who has played the 8th Legion for 20 years, I don't care for your little "retcon".
Keep your hands off of my Legion.

They retcon old lore all the time and Night Lords aren’t a major faction so it’s irrelevant anyway if theh make them Chaos worshippers or a meme. They’re just a meme and only exist because they don’t want to make a renegade marines codex.

They shouldn’t be part of the Chaos faction if they hate Chaos. You can’t have one book where marines are bio mechanical horrors melted into their tanks with demonic flesh and then have meme worthy Night Lords the same as they were during the Great Crusade because reasons. It makes no sense.

Whereas Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors and Black Legion are massive factions who get a lot more exposure in the books and them having the whole “I am not Chaos!” act is a lot more questionable.

My friend, AL never got pushed back into the warp. They are far less dependant upon Chaos than other legions and use it seemingly as a tool. For whatever it is they are aiming at. Also their strength, organisation and even alegiance is questionable in every metric and was so since the great crusade.

And iw have the whole Chaos dwarf attitude sans hashut, ergo daemon= fuel/Pilot/slave for my machine. Also when your mindset is literally flesh is weak and the immaterial formless , efficency and mathemathics above all else, you don't excactly make prime chaos corruption material unless we are talking very specific forms cue obliterator virus.

BL are far more chaotically inclined, with godspecific subfactions , but then again the BL as they are now are basically the lumber room of the legions and not a cohesive force, held together by abbaddon and duct tape.

No, the whole dark pact on the fly is only something that wb should have had and daemonkin forces. And even then dark pacts are not something that is portrayed as fast to do if it should work, considering how sorcery, daemonkin and cultmarine ascension works.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:


Part of the problem is that the Faction Trait for the Black Legion and the Faction Trait for Night Lords, Word Bearers, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors should not be the same. Dark Pacts feels very much like a Word Bearers Faction Trait. (Anyone else wonder how much longer until we see 40K Lorgar?) I'd also question whether these Faction Traits will still be the Faction Trait after we get the eventual Codex. We eventually got new Super Doctrine Faction Traits (of whatever name/application they had for that edition) for Imperial Fists, Ravenguard etc. when we got the Marine codex, and then again when they got their supplements. in the past. They could have picked a better more generic place holder for the release/rollout though and probably should have kept this one in the back pocket for a Word Bearer's release.

Thank you, atleast someone got it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Dark Pacts as the core rule for CSMs seems pretty lousy to me. Better that be the special detachment rule for a more "Fanatical Chaos Worshiping" army, something akin to the achetype that could include Word Bearers.

Making Dark Pacts on the fly during a battle also seems very weird. It's more something someone does prior to an engagement, in a big ritual, not in a "Oh no, there's a Land Raider coming over that rise. Umm... oh mighty She'the'rax'ti'cal... grant me a boon... oh no Jimmy exploded!" kinda way. It's too macro a thing to be done on such a micro scale.

Plus I know quite a few people here who love CSMs, but play CSMs that aren't exactly the most Chaos-i-fied groups, certainly when compared to other more-dedicated Legions (Night Lord players spring to mind, and I'd imagine a few Alpha Legion and even Iron Warrior players) and they might have an issue with their core rules being linked to heavy warp-based daemonic shenanigans.

From a lore perspective one way you could make Dark Pacts work for the legions that are less devoted to a specific Chaos God is Daemon weapons.

Much like the old lore for Abaddon's sword were he had to fight against the daemon bound within the weapon. If he won the weapons power was increased but if he failed he would be wounded by the daemon escaping and the sword would lose power.

So think of of it like the Legionnaires invoking the power of Daemons bound within their Boltguns. If their willpower is greater then the Daemon they are safe if not the daemon attacks its jailer killing him.