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 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Krak grenades are now anti tank weapons

As opposed to... ?

Simply not having a reason to exist. Although I'd argue S9 isn't quite anti tank either.

Multimelta is S9

Having a Krak grenade and a Multimelta be the same Strength feels wierd.

Because AP, Damage, and Melta mean nothing when comparing the weapon

 alextroy wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Krak grenades are now anti tank weapons

As opposed to... ?

Simply not having a reason to exist. Although I'd argue S9 isn't quite anti tank either.

Multimelta is S9

Having a Krak grenade and a Multimelta be the same Strength feels wierd.

Because AP, Damage, and Melta mean nothing when comparing the weapon

Nice one

Of course they do. But if S9 "isn't quite anti tank", but it's also the Strength value of a historically premere anti tank weapon, something feels off.

Nice to see the Krak grenade going back to its AT heritage

Yea it is weird for MM, which was the go to weapon for quite a while to seem like it in the same arena as a krak grenade. It still has it's other benefits, but it's certainly something we have to get use to as I think it finally gives the lascannon room to breathe.

Well, my question now is; if the Krak Grenade is S9, what will the Krak Missile be?

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, my question now is; if the Krak Grenade is S9, what will the Krak Missile be?

S9 - it was in the termie sheet for the cyclone.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, my question now is; if the Krak Grenade is S9, what will the Krak Missile be?

S9 - it was in the termie sheet for the cyclone.

Which is fine, really, if you consider krak missiles to be more akin to RPGs of today. Dedicated tank killers like today's ATGMs are represented by the Hunter-Killer, with a relatively whopping S14, -3 AP and D D6.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, my question now is; if the Krak Grenade is S9, what will the Krak Missile be?

S9 - it was in the termie sheet for the cyclone.

Well . . . Those profiles have deviated in the past in range and damage, so there's a chance. But S9 would be a dissapointment.


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Tsagualsa wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Well, my question now is; if the Krak Grenade is S9, what will the Krak Missile be?

S9 - it was in the termie sheet for the cyclone.

Which is fine, really, if you consider krak missiles to be more akin to RPGs of today. Dedicated tank killers like today's ATGMs are represented by the Hunter-Killer, with a relatively whopping S14, -3 AP and D D6.

It's the future, man. It could be whatever.

The real issue I have is that Missile Launchers have been an uncompelling choice for a long, long time. S10 Krak and S5 Frag might get them on the table again.

 Insectum7 wrote:


The real issue I have is that Missile Launchers have been an uncompelling choice for a long, long time. S10 Krak and S5 Frag might get them on the table again.

Cynically, i have to respond that old-fashioned and time honored anti-tank weapons that everybody already owns are uncool and out this edition, and the new cool thing is the new stuff like their redone field batteries or some Primaris stuff that you'd have to buy anew... That trend has been ongoing for a while now, with the addition of things like Heavy Lascannons, Las-talons, Laser Destroyer turrets etc. that in many cases have no real reason to exist.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


The real issue I have is that Missile Launchers have been an uncompelling choice for a long, long time. S10 Krak and S5 Frag might get them on the table again.

Cynically, i have to respond that old-fashioned and time honored anti-tank weapons that everybody already owns are uncool and out this edition, and the new cool thing is the new stuff like their redone field batteries or some Primaris stuff that you'd have to buy anew... That trend has been ongoing for a while now, with the addition of things like Heavy Lascannons, Las-talons, Laser Destroyer turrets etc. that in many cases have no real reason to exist.

I didn't want to go down that route, but yeah. Krak Grenades get an update because that's the "special" that Intercessors are stuck with. Land Raider Lascannons get an upgrade because they want to move the kit, but Tactical Squad Lascannons stay the same.

But at the same time, new Terminator kit but the Cyclone remains un-upgraded. So I don't want to make too many assumptions.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


The real issue I have is that Missile Launchers have been an uncompelling choice for a long, long time. S10 Krak and S5 Frag might get them on the table again.

Cynically, i have to respond that old-fashioned and time honored anti-tank weapons that everybody already owns are uncool and out this edition, and the new cool thing is the new stuff like their redone field batteries or some Primaris stuff that you'd have to buy anew... That trend has been ongoing for a while now, with the addition of things like Heavy Lascannons, Las-talons, Laser Destroyer turrets etc. that in many cases have no real reason to exist.

I didn't want to go down that route, but yeah. Krak Grenades get an update because that's the "special" that Intercessors are stuck with. Land Raider Lascannons get an upgrade because they want to move the kit, but Tactical Squad Lascannons stay the same.

But at the same time, new Terminator kit but the Cyclone remains un-upgraded. So I don't want to make too many assumptions.

The LC on the Baneblade is same as the landraider.

Breton wrote:

novembermike wrote:

Breton wrote:

Other than the fact that I've already pointed out that Poison is likely Anti-X and in the past poison created regular not Critical wounds.

No, poison in the past created Critical Wounds, they just didn't have that name. All that changed is the label, the thing itself is no different.

Poison created regular wounds. Poison could not create Critical Wounds. Critical Wounds didn't exist. There were no Critical Wounds. We can infer Poison NOW/WILL create critical wounds as Anti-(something biological).

Relax and take three deep breaths. Look deep inside yourself. You will find that critical wounds were there this entire time and you were the one that was missing.

Namaste.

Honestly if you're still having trouble we can figure out a way to explain this. I think pretty much everyone here grasped it this first time but these abstractions can be hard for some people. What's the part that you don't understand, which aspect of it confuses you?

"its been twenty years, warhammer 50k just released, Breton is still confused about critical wounds even if GW has adressed the issue multiple times already"

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea it is weird for MM, which was the go to weapon for quite a while to seem like it in the same arena as a krak grenade. It still has it's other benefits, but it's certainly something we have to get use to as I think it finally gives the lascannon room to breathe.

Yeah, let me just whip out all those lascannons I don't have.


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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
"its been twenty years, warhammer 50k just released, Breton is still confused about critical wounds even if GW has adressed the issue multiple times already"

I have a coworker like this. Took almost a month to teach him how to log into the computers.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea it is weird for MM, which was the go to weapon for quite a while to seem like it in the same arena as a krak grenade. It still has it's other benefits, but it's certainly something we have to get use to as I think it finally gives the lascannon room to breathe.

... sort of.

Melta has always been a weapon which had issues penetrating armors. S8 was exactly the same as a krak missile indeed. Where it shined was in (very) close range when it gained an additional d6 of penetration. Without that though you were penetrating a predator on a 6, and you could never penetrate a leman russ.

The melta is still the same weapon with not so good penetration chances but with high damage (AP1 at the time). What changed is that now instead of gaining higher penetration chances at short range, it instead gained additional damage.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


The real issue I have is that Missile Launchers have been an uncompelling choice for a long, long time. S10 Krak and S5 Frag might get them on the table again.

Cynically, i have to respond that old-fashioned and time honored anti-tank weapons that everybody already owns are uncool and out this edition, and the new cool thing is the new stuff like their redone field batteries or some Primaris stuff that you'd have to buy anew... That trend has been ongoing for a while now, with the addition of things like Heavy Lascannons, Las-talons, Laser Destroyer turrets etc. that in many cases have no real reason to exist.

I didn't want to go down that route, but yeah. Krak Grenades get an update because that's the "special" that Intercessors are stuck with. Land Raider Lascannons get an upgrade because they want to move the kit, but Tactical Squad Lascannons stay the same.

But at the same time, new Terminator kit but the Cyclone remains un-upgraded. So I don't want to make too many assumptions.

The LC on the Baneblade is same as the landraider.

Also don't have missile launchers.

 p5freak wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Astra is here

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/08/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum-2/

Krak grenades are now anti tank weapons

A shaped charge weapon that has always been a light anti-tank weapon is now... a light anti-tank weapon? Most surprising, yes. As the used range of Toughness values expands, similar adjustments in weapon strengths follow the trend.

Since when is a grenade launcher a shaped charge weapon ?

It's been able to fire Krak since at least 2e. So a very long time.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

The LC on the Baneblade is same as the landraider.

A: Nice catch

B: "Astartes Lascannon S6 AP-2 D3 " :p

ccs wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
Astra is here

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/05/08/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum-2/

Krak grenades are now anti tank weapons

A shaped charge weapon that has always been a light anti-tank weapon is now... a light anti-tank weapon? Most surprising, yes. As the used range of Toughness values expands, similar adjustments in weapon strengths follow the trend.

Since when is a grenade launcher a shaped charge weapon ?

It's been able to fire Krak since at least 2e. So a very long time.

Krak's been the same since forever bar the name, yeah. By 1992 (Battle Manual, pic below) when they collected all the fast moving bits of Rogue Trader, it had already settled into the k while the original 1987 version called it "crack" for being... an anti-tank weapon designed to crack heavy armour. Go figure.

Spoletta wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Yea it is weird for MM, which was the go to weapon for quite a while to seem like it in the same arena as a krak grenade. It still has it's other benefits, but it's certainly something we have to get use to as I think it finally gives the lascannon room to breathe.

... sort of.

Melta has always been a weapon which had issues penetrating armors. S8 was exactly the same as a krak missile indeed. Where it shined was in (very) close range when it gained an additional d6 of penetration. Without that though you were penetrating a predator on a 6, and you could never penetrate a leman russ.

The melta is still the same weapon with not so good penetration chances but with high damage (AP1 at the time). What changed is that now instead of gaining higher penetration chances at short range, it instead gained additional damage.

But the efficient way to use melta was to drop something on top of a vehicle, be within half range get the extra dice on penetration which ment it was better at hurting vehicles then the potentialy stronger +1str lascanon.
Doing extra damage is all well and nice, when you get to the part where you roll damage. Melta could still work, but only for armies that can spam it or get re-rolls to wound easily. If an armies core anti tank was 3 MM on dreadnoughts though, then those armies don't have a replacement unit armed with melta, which they could spam.

Karol wrote:
If an armies core anti tank was 3 MM on dreadnoughts though, then those armies don't have a replacement unit armed with melta, which they could spam.

your dreads can take twinlascannons instead

Pretty sure Frag Grenade went up a point of Strength too. Always used to be S3 for Grenade, S4 for Missile?

No idea if that’s new for 10th though.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
If an armies core anti tank was 3 MM on dreadnoughts though, then those armies don't have a replacement unit armed with melta, which they could spam.

your dreads can take twinlascannons instead

Also the full-size Ballistus kit will probably have options, what we're seeing right now is imho just the card for the ETB variant in the starter box and possibly combat patrol.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
If an armies core anti tank was 3 MM on dreadnoughts though, then those armies don't have a replacement unit armed with melta, which they could spam.

your dreads can take twinlascannons instead

I was thinking more about custodes lists and similar. I sold my dreads after GW made the twin double autocanon ones in to legends. I am not very keen on rebuying them, in fact am not very keen on buying anything new for my army to be honest, without seeing a new codex and that is a year or more away.


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Tsagualsa 809431 11530866 wrote:

Also the full-size Ballistus kit will probably have options, what we're seeing right now is imho just the card for the ETB variant in the starter box and possibly combat patrol.

GK don't have primaris tanks or dreadnoughts. But that is besides the point. To units that may have been potentialy problematic with melta it doesn't matter, to armies that have very little in form of anti tank, it doesn't help to have weaker melta or stronger lascanons, because form the looks of it, if one doesn't have really good guns or can spam the less powerful weaker ones and edition of vehicles maybe a bit problematic. But who knows, for all we know there can be a faction that gets so powerful anti tank rules, that the vehicle edition is going to be only something in GW dreams.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pretty sure Frag Grenade went up a point of Strength too. Always used to be S3 for Grenade, S4 for Missile?

No idea if that’s new for 10th though.

Yeah it looks like they have upgraded grenade launchers (cadian datasheet) to the same stats as man portable missile launchers (terminator datasheet) but not as strong as vehicle mounted missile launchers (new dread datasheet). I would guess the thinking is that having the grenade launchers weaker than missle launchers was making them such a small upgrade over a lasgun that there was no point.

EightFoldPath wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pretty sure Frag Grenade went up a point of Strength too. Always used to be S3 for Grenade, S4 for Missile?

No idea if that’s new for 10th though.

Yeah it looks like they have upgraded grenade launchers (cadian datasheet) to the same stats as man portable missile launchers (terminator datasheet) but not as strong as vehicle mounted missile launchers (new dread datasheet). I would guess the thinking is that having the grenade launchers weaker than missle launchers was making them such a small upgrade over a lasgun that there was no point.

Well, at the time the Guard codex was new a lot of people on here were saying just that (that the Grenade Launcher was never worth it) so the logic works out.

Now you’re “one per ten” for each Special Weapon, giving the Grenade Launcher a little extra oomph does make sense.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
If an armies core anti tank was 3 MM on dreadnoughts though, then those armies don't have a replacement unit armed with melta, which they could spam.

your dreads can take twinlascannons instead

Show me on the Paragon Warsuit's (our dreadnought equivalent) datasheet where it says I can run a twinlascannon.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Nice to see the Krak grenade going back to its AT heritage

i can't tell if this is sarcasm or not...

Karol wrote:
I was thinking more about custodes lists and similar. I sold my dreads after GW made the twin double autocanon ones in to legends. I am not very keen on rebuying them, in fact am not very keen on buying anything new for my army to be honest, without seeing a new codex and that is a year or more away.

If we can take their statement at face value the datacards should largely stay the same so you shouldn't need the codex to assess most of it. The codex will just change which units are more or less viable in each detachment given.


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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Pretty sure Frag Grenade went up a point of Strength too. Always used to be S3 for Grenade, S4 for Missile?

No idea if that’s new for 10th though.

The 9th edition codex has frags on the launcher at D6 and S3. This D3 S4, but with a better scaling on blast. Seems decent.


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ERJAK wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Karol wrote:
If an armies core anti tank was 3 MM on dreadnoughts though, then those armies don't have a replacement unit armed with melta, which they could spam.

your dreads can take twinlascannons instead

Show me on the Paragon Warsuit's (our dreadnought equivalent) datasheet where it says I can run a twinlascannon.

I imagine Sisters are going to have some Holy Trinity style army rule to keep their identity functional. Hopefully without forcing weird list building.