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dominuschao wrote:I want to take this time and this space to preemptively complain about drukhari.
I am now almost certain we are getting screwed again. Tau seem even better than before and power from pain is getting nerfed I'm pretty sure
Archons won't be able to join grotesques which sucks if it happens. Everyone else now has pseudo open topped transports so ours are worse by comparison. Plus weapons went up in strength making our toughness 3 even less tough. And don't get me started on poison. And if that's not enough we won't even get a dex until 2025. I'm so sick of 10th edition already.

H.B.M.C. wrote:We don't know what poison even does yet.

If you're going to complain about something, pick a topic that's worth being annoyed about:

1. One-Size-Fits-All combi-weapon profiles.
2. "And They Shall Know Oaths of Moment" being the new defining trait of all Marines, rather than the things that have traditionally defined them.
3. Shadow in the Warp, good or bad, being really boring.
4. The terrain rules are simplistic and silly.

H.B.M.C., do you even know what sarcasm is?

Yes I'm fething around guys good hell. Of course we don't know anything re drukhari at this point.

Edit- I guess I'm a poe. Had to Google that one

 alextroy wrote:
H.B.M.C., do you even know what sarcasm is?

What the hell do you think? Especially when we've had a few posters saying how ruined Sisters are for pages now* and people already saying that Dark Eldar would suck.

*Must say it's been such a long time since we've had Sisters players "Oh woe is me"-ing. Used to be such a staple of 40k players online...

Breton wrote:
Pardon me while I laugh in Schadenfreude.

Given what's been going on, it might be inadvisable to go after those that have not joined in with everyone else against you in this thread.

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

That doesn't get you to 50, you're assuming you get to control both midfields and a bunch if my stuff dies destroying your stuff giving me dice I can't use because... my stuff was destroyed while destroying your stuff.

I just see most of these abilities having one drawback or the other - Chaos gets to use the ability which blows their stuff up, Sisters have to blow their stuff up to use the ability. Sure if Sisters get up and rolling they churn through the dice, but on a slow start or evenly matched game with miracle dice keep up with Doctrines or Pacts?

No, it doesnt get me to 50, because its just a preview. What you saw is a tiny bit from the army rules, and 30 is not unlikely from this sneak peak. Pacts are weak because you must roll 6s, only every 6th dice roll does that. Sisters already know what they will get, they can even plan for the next turns with already rolled dice.

Pacts are weak because only every 6th dice will roll one, but Sisters have miracle dice that... still only roll a 6 on every 6th dice? And Pacts don't require a 6? You say go, you get the ability, no roll required. Afterwards you roll your LD, so a 6 wouldn't suck. 7-8 units putting out 125-150ish shots are going to roll some 6's. Plus some of them are likely going to need less than a 6 for a Critical Hit.


I'm just going to guess (it could go either way, but traditionally they tend to go with No on FAQ's like this) Obliterators with Fleshmetal Guns on Warphail don't get Sustained Fire 1+1=2 so they'll instead be pretty much forced to chose Sustained Hits 1 and Lethal Hits 1 making them a prime target for any way(s) you can up their Critical Hit chances - bespoke, strat, etc. - even without it, they roll D6+3, 6.5 dice per Oblit, giving them 2 misses, 4 hits, and another hit that already wounded (potentially 3 hits and two wounds, because in the past when a Freebie Hit is generated, it's generated with the same "success number" as the hit that generated it" plus a half of something that doesn't really matter anymore. Aside from what used to be template weapons - there's very little in the army that can't/won't benefit from the rule on any/every turn. The other difference between Pacts/Doctrines/etc and Miracle Dice is that Miracle Dice can't really be front-loaded. They may be toning down lethality, but alpha strike is still alpha.

Breton wrote:

Pacts are weak because only every 6th dice will roll one, but Sisters have miracle dice that... still only roll a 6 on every 6th dice? And Pacts don't require a 6? You say go, you get the ability, no roll required. Afterwards you roll your LD, so a 6 wouldn't suck. 7-8 units putting out 125-150ish shots are going to roll some 6's. Plus some of them are likely going to need less than a 6 for a Critical Hit.

Yes, pacts are weak. You could end up rolling no 6s, and still suffer 3MW. Sisters get miracle dice for free, just for being sisters.

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

Pacts are weak because only every 6th dice will roll one, but Sisters have miracle dice that... still only roll a 6 on every 6th dice? And Pacts don't require a 6? You say go, you get the ability, no roll required. Afterwards you roll your LD, so a 6 wouldn't suck. 7-8 units putting out 125-150ish shots are going to roll some 6's. Plus some of them are likely going to need less than a 6 for a Critical Hit.

Yes, pacts are weak. You could end up rolling no 6s, and still suffer 3MW. Sisters get miracle dice for free, just for being sisters.

I'm not sure starting statistical then going max goalpost is the best way to go. Especially when its even easier to suggest Sisters won't get a 6 on their miracle dice because they get far fewer than 100-150 a turn.

I mean sure, there's a lot we don't know yet - and I'm just making an educated guess at some issues Miracle Dice will have compared to the other so far leaked counterparts and contemporaries. And if you want to make an argument in favor of the dice I'm all for it, but could you do better than your 150 dice won't come up 6 because I already called dibs on all sixes for my Miracle Dice? Or that it doesn't matter how slow Miracle Dice start because by the end of the game you'll have 50 with nothing to use them on because Miracle Dice can't be front loaded like most of these other abilities? Something that actually talks to the points I brought up without ridiculous levels of What-if?

Breton wrote:

So the total sum value of your post is to violate rule number one, not provide anything constructive, and congratulate yourself for being the first to do so, yet failing to actually be first? Have you tried looking up the definition of "philosophical"? Have you tried intellectual honesty? Have you tried wondering about anything beyond what you've been spoonfed?

Have you?

Philosopgical: relating or devoted to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

Kinda sounds to me like you've been considering the fundamental knowledge of the written words and applications in 40k, you derive a higher meaning and intent behind the simple language.

That aside, onto intellectual honesty:

Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another; References, or earlier work, are acknowledged where possible, and plagiarism is avoided.

As you noted immediately and criticised, I did not present any facts or information, so it's not a valid statement. You could argue I plagiarised your stance I guess?

Regards breaching rule 1 over a light hearted comment, welcome to the club now.

And for the spoon feeding, my grasp of the English language and reading comprehension has come from the public education system, the same system where you're to, a large degree, taught to trust those with more knowledge than yourself to learn from. So either you're insinuating that we shouldn't listen to GW as they do not know more about 10th than us, or you've unironically spouted a load of Internet argument buzzwords at me you've been spoonfed.

To that end, as we're all about self learning, anyone got thoughts on the leaked core stratagems?

Dudeface wrote:

Breton wrote:

So the total sum value of your post is to violate rule number one, not provide anything constructive, and congratulate yourself for being the first to do so, yet failing to actually be first? Have you tried looking up the definition of "philosophical"? Have you tried intellectual honesty? Have you tried wondering about anything beyond what you've been spoonfed?

Have you?

Why yes, I wondered what else Critical Wounds might do.

Philosopgical: relating or devoted to the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence.

Kinda sounds to me like you've been considering the fundamental knowledge of the written words and applications in 40k, you derive a higher meaning and intent behind the simple language.

I'm not sure I'd call rules that haven't been teased yet in a toy soldier game with designed obsolescence as fundamental of anything. Do you think one of the unreleased rules is the meaning of life?

That aside, onto intellectual honesty:

Facts are presented in an unbiased manner, and not twisted to give misleading impressions or to support one view over another; References, or earlier work, are acknowledged where possible, and plagiarism is avoided.

As you noted immediately and criticised, I did not present any facts or information, so it's not a valid statement. You could argue I plagiarised your stance I guess?

Regards breaching rule 1 over a light hearted comment, welcome to the club now.

And for the spoon feeding, my grasp of the English language and reading comprehension has come from the public education system, the same system where you're to, a large degree, taught to trust those with more knowledge than yourself to learn from. So either you're insinuating that we shouldn't listen to GW as they do not know more about 10th than us, or you've unironically spouted a load of Internet argument buzzwords at me you've been spoonfed.

No I'm flat out explaining that what GW pre-releases is not the be-all end-all of what 40K will be - and flat out declaring there is nothing more to be seen with USR X because GW didn't release it is silly. Especially when the released Chaos Space Marine Boltguns without Rapid Fire while Sisters Boltguns do get to Rapid Fire. Now do you think GW knows more about Chaos Boltguns than we do, or do you think it was maybe an oversight and there's more to Chaos Boltguns than GW has told us?

To that end, as we're all about self learning, anyone got thoughts on the leaked core stratagems?

Breton wrote:
No I'm flat out explaining that what GW pre-releases is not the be-all end-all of what 40K will be - and flat out declaring there is nothing more to be seen with USR X because GW didn't release it is silly. Especially when the released Chaos Space Marine Boltguns without Rapid Fire while Sisters Boltguns do get to Rapid Fire. Now do you think GW knows more about Chaos Boltguns than we do, or do you think it was maybe an oversight and there's more to Chaos Boltguns than GW has told us?

I have no reason to doubt that chaos boltguns are as advertised at this stage. It's easy to see that they have potentially taken bolter discipline into account and changed the base profile.

Yeah. I'd've thought that the fact that Marine/Chaos Marine Bolters both got that, and others didn't, kinda made it obvious what they were going for.

I am wondering how ‘glass-cannon’ units/armies are going to work in Xth.

Reduced lethality along with perhaps more reactive shooting might make it tricky.

I do wonder how Drukhari will be balanced. For example I found Poison Weapons better than the original Splinter Rifles. The balance to wounding everything* on a set value is that you wound everything on a set value.

And we already have heavy infantry with Assault Ramps and a chance to bundle back into their transport when charged.

So I am curious to see what we get.


*vehicles and titanic aside.

How do Dark Eldar vehicles work now as far as being "Assault Boats" (assuming they're even capable of such a thing in 9th)?

They have no special rules regarding assault, as far as I recall.

Models can all shoot out of it. Unless engaged, in which case only pistols.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. I'd've thought that the fact that Marine/Chaos Marine Bolters both got that, and others didn't, kinda made it obvious what they were going for.

I thought so but welcome to the spoonfed club. There's also chance it relates to their enahcne base strength to cope with recoil or better aim etc.

I believe that bolters so far are the weapon they managed to represent better.

Did you use those things in Darktide? They have a huge recoil, there is no way you can go full auto with them at long range and still hope to hit something.

It is only when you have that Ogryn in front of you that you empty the clip.

A marine probably has no issue of the sort, so he keeps his aim steady while in full auto and can use it effectively at long range. Even more effectively if he doesn't move.

Breton wrote:

I'm not sure starting statistical then going max goalpost is the best way to go. Especially when its even easier to suggest Sisters won't get a 6 on their miracle dice because they get far fewer than 100-150 a turn.

Lets assume 36 miracle dice for an entire game. Those will get you six 1s, six 2s, six 3s, six 4s, six 5s, six 6s. 24 dice with 3+. Those 24 dice i can count on, they are already rolled. Thats ten times better than hoping to roll 6s, and not failing LD tests to get MWs.

Your lets say 120 shots will give you 20 6s on average. what will those 6s do ? Its either an automatic wound or an extra hit. Sisters dice can be used for a lot more that just hitting and wounding.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. I'd've thought that the fact that Marine/Chaos Marine Bolters both got that, and others didn't, kinda made it obvious what they were going for.

Both got what? Chaos Marine boltguns didn't get anything according to the data sheet, not Rapid Fire, and not Heavy+Assault - marine bolt rifles have been leaked, but AFAIK Loyalist Marine Boltguns have not. Meanwhile the Sisters datasheet shows their Boltgun has Rapid Fire 1 - the Votann have another differently named Bolter that doesn't have anything either but I don't know enough about Votann to know what, if anything, that means. The Lasgun "still" has Rapid Fire 1.

Now even before we get to the game balance issues of a 2W roughly 20 point model getting the same or fewer shots than a 1w 10ish point model - Human Nature being what it is - I have a feeling Chaos Marine players are going to howl if their 10,000 year old Space Marines are worse than 20 year old nuns with guns. Once you factor points per blob at 24" ~100 points of CSM get 10 shots (5*2) while 100ish points of Sisters is going to pump out 10 (10*1) - while at 12 inches the CSM will still get 10. and the Sisters will get 20(10*1+1*10). But maybe they're also pushing CSM into the BP/CS default. I still forsee some feedback on this one.

Especially since, as you brought up, we've seen the Bolt Rifle and it has Assault and Heavy, while the CSM Boltgun has neither so CSM are going to get neither the close range bonus attacks we're used to seeing (and that traditionally offset the Assault rule) or the ability to run and gun we're seeing from Loyalist Bolt Rifles.

Maybe that's what they meant to do. Maybe it's (at least one of the leaks) an old datasheet/blurb/whatever that wasn't fully edited and updated (Remember Heavy Intercessors and 6 differently named Heavy Something guns that didn't match each other?). I don't know. But human nature being what it is not giving CSM either of those two specials is unlikely to sit or balance well.

Chaos boltgun 2 shots always.

Sister 1 shot over half range, 2 at close range.

How is sister better at shooting?

So far we've had 4 bolter rules

Boltrifle 24" A2 S4 ap-1 D1 assault, heavy
Chaos 24" A2 S4 ap0 D1
Sisters 24" a1 S4 ap0 D1 rapid fire 1
Autoch 24" A2 S4 ap0 D1

The storm bolter is 24" A2 S4 ap0 D1 rapid fire 2

I would hazard a guess that the tactical boltgun will be:

24" A2 S4 ap0 D1

The marine guns are all technically rapid fire 1 but due to bolter discipline and transhuman physiology they can fire at full range, so they've just given them A2.

The autoch is a more advanced bolter and uses stabilisers and targeters giving it more shots.

The sisters bolter is just what a non marine carrying a bolter looks like.




Hopefully this will be enough bolters for the game and we can look at other stuff.


What do you reckon the chances that ad mech go down to bs4+ are? At least for troops?

I reckon it's a pretty good chance that non elite troops will be bs4+ or worse across the board.

I wouldn't be surprised if they made guardians 4+, or had defenders bs3+ /ws4+ and storm the reverse.

Breton wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah. I'd've thought that the fact that Marine/Chaos Marine Bolters both got that, and others didn't, kinda made it obvious what they were going for.

Both got what? Chaos Marine boltguns didn't get anything according to the data sheet, not Rapid Fire, and not Heavy+Assault - marine bolt rifles have been leaked, but AFAIK Loyalist Marine Boltguns have not. Meanwhile the Sisters datasheet shows their Boltgun has Rapid Fire 1 - the Votann have another differently named Bolter that doesn't have anything either but I don't know enough about Votann to know what, if anything, that means. The Lasgun "still" has Rapid Fire 1.

Now even before we get to the game balance issues of a 2W roughly 20 point model getting the same or fewer shots than a 1w 10ish point model - Human Nature being what it is - I have a feeling Chaos Marine players are going to howl if their 10,000 year old Space Marines are worse than 20 year old nuns with guns. Once you factor points per blob at 24" ~100 points of CSM get 10 shots (5*2) while 100ish points of Sisters is going to pump out 10 (10*1) - while at 12 inches the CSM will still get 10. and the Sisters will get 20(10*1+1*10). But maybe they're also pushing CSM into the BP/CS default. I still forsee some feedback on this one.

Especially since, as you brought up, we've seen the Bolt Rifle and it has Assault and Heavy, while the CSM Boltgun has neither so CSM are going to get neither the close range bonus attacks we're used to seeing (and that traditionally offset the Assault rule) or the ability to run and gun we're seeing from Loyalist Bolt Rifles.

Maybe that's what they meant to do. Maybe it's (at least one of the leaks) an old datasheet/blurb/whatever that wasn't fully edited and updated (Remember Heavy Intercessors and 6 differently named Heavy Something guns that didn't match each other?). I don't know. But human nature being what it is not giving CSM either of those two specials is unlikely to sit or balance well.

The bolt rifle was analogous to the bolter in that it was a bolter+1, so if the bolt rifle has ceased being rapid fire as well it serves to stand that a tac marine bolter is also 2 shots the same as the chaos one, as one again, analogous entries. They should not get the smoragsbord of USR that a bolt rifle get however as that is clearly explained as an amalgamation of the variants.

Further point of clarity, they're not leaks, if GW publishes them as public info on their site, it's a reveal by intent.

 Hellebore wrote:


What do you reckon the chances that ad mech go down to bs4+ are? At least for troops?

I reckon it's a pretty good chance that non elite troops will be bs4+ or worse across the board.

I wouldn't be surprised if they made guardians 4+, or had defenders bs3+ /ws4+ and storm the reverse.

I guess Mechanicus will be another case of downgraded to 4+, but with easy access to a bonus via canticles, auras or support vehicles/characters.

Points cost comparison (even with theoretical points) must surely include close combat and other rules?

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

I'm not sure starting statistical then going max goalpost is the best way to go. Especially when its even easier to suggest Sisters won't get a 6 on their miracle dice because they get far fewer than 100-150 a turn.

Lets assume 36 miracle dice for an entire game. Those will get you six 1s, six 2s, six 3s, six 4s, six 5s, six 6s. 24 dice with 3+. Those 24 dice i can count on, they are already rolled. Thats ten times better than hoping to roll 6s, and not failing LD tests to get MWs.

Your lets say 120 shots will give you 20 6s on average. what will those 6s do ? Its either an automatic wound or an extra hit. Sisters dice can be used for a lot more that just hitting and wounding.

Again, you're not talking to the points I'm bringing up, and still trying to roll your averages while tooling up 1's for the Chaos player.

Lets assume 36 miracle dice for an entire game. You have the fewest dice when you have the most units. What do you have on your first turn? 1? 2 if you go second, and another 2 if you have two objectives in your backfield with the right unit on it? So four total? How many units do you have? 18 if the CSM have 9?

Now it's turn/round 5, half your stuff is dead giving you 18 Miracle Dice. How many units do you have to use them on? Well, we don't know because we don't know how lethal the game is. Lets assume each side in a balanced game (and assume this is a balanced game) loses half. 9 left. for your 18 miracle dice.

Now lets say you're playing Chaos - its turn one. You have approximately 50-60 Legionary bodies putting out 100-150 shots. Probably closer to 150-200 if you've got a lot of vehicles, Oblits or what-have-you, but lets do 120 shots for easy math. That's 20 6's. That's the floor. We have no idea how many if any mechanics CSM will have for lowering the floor of Critical Hits. After that you've got lets say 60 bodies, 9 units. 3x10 and 6x5 - chances are some of those 5's are going to be 1's or 10's but its too early to know how many which way - of 9 units roughly 25% will fail a first umodified test for a 6+- but then you have rerolls, and bonuses (Abby, Icons etc). So you end up with an average of less than 1 unit taking an average 2 mortal wounds for 20+ Critical Hits and +1CP for Abby from Dark Destiny. Now Round 5, you've got 25-30 models, and 4-5 units. 60 shots is 10 Criticals, Even less of one unit taking 2 Mortals, and the CP for Abby.

Now the weakness of Pact is that you can't control where the 6's land (Not that 120 shots might get 0 6's). And there is something to be said for knowing just how far your unit will advance if you so choose to do so. But not getting to frontload the ability when you have the most bang for your buck may be a serious drawback, as is needing to use up a dice for each unit, as opposed to every unit that does an act uses this 1 dice for this turn and/or you start with X Dice and lose one for each of these scenarios (generally think opposite of when you would gain one except for squad wipe out keep that one as a lose one as the Emperor's Light fades on the battlefield- but as long as one Sister from that squad lives on, you keep that dice because she's a living miracle)

Lets do Doctrines. I've got 50-60 models in 9ish units again and all nine get to advance and shoot, or advance and charge, or - because the secret ingredient in that brownie was especially active - fall back and then charge. No, I kid, there's also a shooting phase in the middle there. but that''s probably a Turn 3+ or situational choice. Loyalist Marine players have two Doctrines they're likely to want to use in the first two turns - again front-loading - both because they can affect the most models on turn 1-2, and because the abilities generally have their best use in the early turns to close distance to mid/back field objectives and the like. Its the Guilliman synergy reworked for 10th.

 Hellebore wrote:

Hopefully this will be enough bolters for the game and we can look at other stuff.

There's the heavy intercessors to come yet, I suspect that'll be a different bolter again. I'd also wager that incursors/infiltrators now have a bespoke bolter they share.

What do you reckon the chances that ad mech go down to bs4+ are? At least for troops?

I reckon it's a pretty good chance that non elite troops will be bs4+ or worse across the board.

I wouldn't be surprised if they made guardians 4+, or had defenders bs3+ /ws4+ and storm the reverse.

I think admech should go down, the inflation of BS/WS across the game has been a real bugbear of mine since there was a constant gnashing of teeth and wailing the second a stat wasn't 3+ on a unit because it wasn't efficient enough. We need more "average" in the game.

This does propose a problem for orks that we can readily resolve. I've a feeling a shoota will be 18" 2 shot, rapidfire 2 or 3, assault, critical hit 5+. Might be fun to have orks totally immune to modifiers with critical hits but have a native bs of 6+ to represent them hitting despite not aiming.

I imagine the Heavy Bolt Rifle will have done to it what the Bolt Rifle received, so a consolidated profile with some special rules that gives it a boost when sniping, but also on the move, but overall it'll be slightly more damaging than the Bolt Rifle because it's a Heavy Bolt Rifle.

Spoletta wrote:
Did you use those things in Darktide? They have a huge recoil, there is no way you can go full auto with them at long range and still hope to hit something.

Which doesn't make a lot of sense given the projectiles are self propelled...

Dudeface wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Hopefully this will be enough bolters for the game and we can look at other stuff.

There's the heavy intercessors to come yet, I suspect that'll be a different bolter again. I'd also wager that incursors/infiltrators now have a bespoke bolter they share.

And the Reivers. Plus the Heavy Bolt Pistol you saw on Reivers Option A, Bladeguard etc. I haven't seen a Hurricane Bolter yet either - will that be A12, A6 RF 6 or TL A3 RF3, TL A6 or something else entirely? They split out the Godhammers instead of Twin Linking them, but then Twin Linked the Heavy Bolter. They twin linked the Auto Bolt Fists. It doesn't look like they twinlinked boneswords - or at least the Swarmlord's bone sabres. But they're S9 and he's potentially a named. They Twin Linked the Heavy Bolter and Heavy Flamer on the Bane Blade. The Land Fortress has a couple Twin Linked Bolt Cannon/Ion Beamers. S6 and 7. I can't tell yet, but it looks like they're Twin Linking the anti-infantry stuff, and splitting out the Anti-tank/monster stuff.

What do you reckon the chances that ad mech go down to bs4+ are? At least for troops?

I reckon it's a pretty good chance that non elite troops will be bs4+ or worse across the board.

I wouldn't be surprised if they made guardians 4+, or had defenders bs3+ /ws4+ and storm the reverse.

Kataphron Troops already were BS4 I think? The Skitarii Ranger with a default Galvanic Rifle will probably go to the 4+ [HEAVY] we've been seeing, but the optional options that aren't heavy might stay at 3. Not sure the Vanguard with 18" assault 3's will change to a 4+ either.

I think admech should go down, the inflation of BS/WS across the game has been a real bugbear of mine since there was a constant gnashing of teeth and wailing the second a stat wasn't 3+ on a unit because it wasn't efficient enough. We need more "average" in the game.

This does propose a problem for orks that we can readily resolve. I've a feeling a shoota will be 18" 2 shot, rapidfire 2 or 3, assault, critical hit 5+. Might be fun to have orks totally immune to modifiers with critical hits but have a native bs of 6+ to represent them hitting despite not aiming.

Don't forget exploding 6's. Shoota: [ASSAULT] A1, Rapid Fire 2, Sustained Hits maybe. Or it may stay [DAKKA] for integration in their Faction/Det ability WAAAGH! which doubles the DAKKA but also adds [HAZARDOUS] - as the back ranks shoot up the front ranks in a noise filled cacophony - for the turn in their own version of Dark Pacts. Probably not. That's too much more painful than Dark Pacts. Probably end up with both units dead under a pile of brass. But you get the idea. - as a Prediction, DAKKA stops being a weapon rule and turns into the Detachment rule with the faction rule being WAAAGH!. Shootas will be similar to the ASSAULT A1 RF2 - may or may not have Sustained hits - DAKKA will be some sort of tradeoff/points-redemption to always get Rapid Fire for the given turn - WAAAGH will be something close combat Charge related potentially negating or reinforcing the need for ASSAULT on the Shootas. With any real luck we'll see a return to Shoota and Choppa boys as seperate entities.

Spoletta wrote:
Did you use those things in Darktide? They have a huge recoil, there is no way you can go full auto with them at long range and still hope to hit something.

H.B.M.C wrote:Which doesn't make a lot of sense given the projectiles are self propelled...

Wibblywobbly handwaving, but... bolters have a huge kick to them as they use two-phased propulsion, ie. there is a conventional explosive propellant that shoots the bolt out and the self-propelled gyro motion starts mid-flight. If they didn't have this and were straight-up rockets, the gun would be terrible at close ranges and have way less satisfactory bark when they fire. That's why we always see casing on them as well (and not at all due to artistic shorthand and familiarity with regular firearms...), to contain the initial propellant

Breton wrote:

Spoiler:

Again, you're not talking to the points I'm bringing up, and still trying to roll your averages while tooling up 1's for the Chaos player.

Lets assume 36 miracle dice for an entire game. You have the fewest dice when you have the most units. What do you have on your first turn? 1? 2 if you go second, and another 2 if you have two objectives in your backfield with the right unit on it? So four total? How many units do you have? 18 if the CSM have 9?

Now it's turn/round 5, half your stuff is dead giving you 18 Miracle Dice. How many units do you have to use them on? Well, we don't know because we don't know how lethal the game is. Lets assume each side in a balanced game (and assume this is a balanced game) loses half. 9 left. for your 18 miracle dice.

Now lets say you're playing Chaos - its turn one. You have approximately 50-60 Legionary bodies putting out 100-150 shots. Probably closer to 150-200 if you've got a lot of vehicles, Oblits or what-have-you, but lets do 120 shots for easy math. That's 20 6's. That's the floor. We have no idea how many if any mechanics CSM will have for lowering the floor of Critical Hits. After that you've got lets say 60 bodies, 9 units. 3x10 and 6x5 - chances are some of those 5's are going to be 1's or 10's but its too early to know how many which way - of 9 units roughly 25% will fail a first umodified test for a 6+- but then you have rerolls, and bonuses (Abby, Icons etc). So you end up with an average of less than 1 unit taking an average 2 mortal wounds for 20+ Critical Hits and +1CP for Abby from Dark Destiny. Now Round 5, you've got 25-30 models, and 4-5 units. 60 shots is 10 Criticals, Even less of one unit taking 2 Mortals, and the CP for Abby.

Now the weakness of Pact is that you can't control where the 6's land (Not that 120 shots might get 0 6's). And there is something to be said for knowing just how far your unit will advance if you so choose to do so. But not getting to frontload the ability when you have the most bang for your buck may be a serious drawback, as is needing to use up a dice for each unit, as opposed to every unit that does an act uses this 1 dice for this turn and/or you start with X Dice and lose one for each of these scenarios (generally think opposite of when you would gain one except for squad wipe out keep that one as a lose one as the Emperor's Light fades on the battlefield- but as long as one Sister from that squad lives on, you keep that dice because she's a living miracle)

Lets do Doctrines. I've got 50-60 models in 9ish units again and all nine get to advance and shoot, or advance and charge, or - because the secret ingredient in that brownie was especially active - fall back and then charge. No, I kid, there's also a shooting phase in the middle there. but that''s probably a Turn 3+ or situational choice. Loyalist Marine players have two Doctrines they're likely to want to use in the first two turns - again front-loading - both because they can affect the most models on turn 1-2, and because the abilities generally have their best use in the early turns to close distance to mid/back field objectives and the like. Its the Guilliman synergy reworked for 10th.

PenitentJake wrote:
Haven't checked the maths yet, but this is an interesting breakdown. It feel like Marines and Chaos throwing everything they have in turn one and turn two, thinking "They're only girls, how can they possibly stand against us," while we do our duty and pray for the Emperor's grace.

Well, the Loyalists are holding back by using doctrines (their detachment ability) rather than Oath of Moment (their army ability, the equivalent of AoF), while Chaos is throwing in everything and the kitchen sink (Abby, icons) and they still get screwed. It is kinda funny.

WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."