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Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

Honestly doing me a favour, I really really want WE to be what they are in my head, I've been so close to pulling the trigger on some minis, but manage to get put off by rules.

Blood Surge sounds interesting. On one hand, it can help the WE get across the board.

On the other? I can, potentially..



then off Objectives.

Wait. No. It’s optional. Aww.

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

I wouldn't worry about it. Big like the Votann, they're only half an army right now. Once they get the rest of their units it'll be better.

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

Yeah, resurrecting a model like Angron is just a stupid rule. One interesting question, since he goes into reserves: have the reserve rules changed to allow units to arrive after turn 3?

Don’t think we know either way.

But remember, Angron needs a triple 6 to Ressurect, so it’s far from guaranteed.

 p5freak wrote:

Breton wrote:

I'm not sure starting statistical then going max goalpost is the best way to go. Especially when its even easier to suggest Sisters won't get a 6 on their miracle dice because they get far fewer than 100-150 a turn.

Lets assume 36 miracle dice for an entire game. Those will get you six 1s, six 2s, six 3s, six 4s, six 5s, six 6s. 24 dice with 3+. Those 24 dice i can count on, they are already rolled. Thats ten times better than hoping to roll 6s, and not failing LD tests to get MWs.

Your lets say 120 shots will give you 20 6s on average. what will those 6s do ? Its either an automatic wound or an extra hit. Sisters dice can be used for a lot more that just hitting and wounding.

Here's a simulated scenario. This isn't an attempt to agree or disagree, but instead to provide some color.

Four full units of CSM pact. They each have a LC and ML going after a rhino. Statistically one of these units will take 2MW and lose a model. They experience a 26% increase in output by using Sustained Hits.

Regular ( 9.7 total ):


Sustained Hits ( 12.2 total ):


Then four MM from Sisters shoot the same, but they have two miracle dice to use on the damage roll. Sisters get a 14% by using a 4 and 5 on damage and a 23% increase if they use two MD ( 3+ or 4+ moving ) to ensure hits.

No miracle dice:


Miracle dice ( damage ) - 10.7 total:


Miracle dice ( hits ) - 11.6 total :

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don’t think we know either way.

But remember, Angron needs a triple 6 to Ressurect, so it’s far from guaranteed.

It's roughly 14% chance of resurrecting, so not far off rolling a 6, though the Icon rule gives some possibility for manipulation there too. It's the type of rule I really hate, because it's not very likely to happen but has a massive impact when it does.

Slipspace wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Don’t think we know either way.

But remember, Angron needs a triple 6 to Ressurect, so it’s far from guaranteed.

It's roughly 14% chance of resurrecting, so not far off rolling a 6, though the Icon rule gives some possibility for manipulation there too. It's the type of rule I really hate, because it's not very likely to happen but has a massive impact when it does.

Decent chance that enhancements, character abilities and strategems may manipulate of the Anger Dice too. Even a single "Count any die as a 6" ability would massively change the odds.

I don't think the Detachment ability for WE was mentioned either.

Why are things forbidden from showing up on Turns 4 and 5 anyway?

Because some people held units back in reserve so couldn’t be killed. IIRC there were missions where those ‘saved’ units would count against win conditions.

Or dropped them into a ‘winning location’ in turn five so that the opponent couldn’t do much to stop them.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why are things forbidden from showing up on Turns 4 and 5 anyway?

I think GW might still be scarred from end of game scoring, where you could have eldar jetbikes hiding in reserves all game and do last minute dashes to objectives to claim objectives in the 11th hour and claim victory.

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

I think they're great. What don't you like about the mechanic?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:
Chaos boltgun 2 shots always.

Sister 1 shot over half range, 2 at close range.

How is sister better at shooting?

Sisters get close to twice as many bodies making the numbers near equal at range and nearly twice as much at half.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

I think they're great. What don't you like about the mechanic?

3 or more sixes in 8 dice has about 34% probability, not around 10%.

Quick question... Do we know if the 10th To Wound table is identical to 8th/9th edition? Are there any new caveats to 6+ always wounds?

 oni wrote:
Quick question... Do we know if the 10th To Wound table is identical to 8th/9th edition? Are there any new caveats to 6+ always wounds?

People that played the Warhammerfest demo games said it was the same table.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

I think they're great. What don't you like about the mechanic?

For me, its the rolling every turn for what the army can do. And the unpredictability of what your own units are going to be able to do from turn to turn.
From the opposite side of the table, 'suddenly, the entire army has lethal and sustained hits because dice' is just... unfun. Stacking bonuses on top of units that are already pushing the boundaries seems... excessive.

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

I think they're great. What don't you like about the mechanic?

For me, its the rolling every turn for what the army can do. And the unpredictability of what your own units are going to be able to do from turn to turn.
From the opposite side of the table, 'suddenly, the entire army has lethal and sustained hits because dice' is just... unfun. Stacking bonuses on top of units that are already pushing the boundaries seems... excessive.

It's not nearly as unpredictable as it first seems - you can almost-guaranteed use four of these abilities each turn, and the remaining ones have probabilities around 80-70% of being usable each turn. You'll not always be able to use two, and not every ability each turn, but overall the randomness is about comparable to D6-shot attacks or whatever.

Tsagualsa wrote:
3 or more sixes in 8 dice has about 34% probability, not around 10%.

I think its about 13.5%?

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

I think they're great. What don't you like about the mechanic?

For me, its the rolling every turn for what the army can do. And the unpredictability of what your own units are going to be able to do from turn to turn.
From the opposite side of the table, 'suddenly, the entire army has lethal and sustained hits because dice' is just... unfun. Stacking bonuses on top of units that are already pushing the boundaries seems... excessive.

Unpredictability that is affected by how well you control the table and which buffs you need in that moment.

Tsagualsa wrote:

It's not nearly as unpredictable as it first seems - you can almost-guaranteed use four of these abilities each turn, and the remaining ones have probabilities around 80-70% of being usable each turn. You'll not always be able to use two, and not every ability each turn, but overall the randomness is about comparable to D6-shot attacks or whatever.

\shrug. It still isn't a thing I enjoy for my own armies.

For opponents, its that confirmation bias that of course they're going to be able to take the best ones when it matters most. [I'm not arguing that ones I grabbed out of the hat are the best, just being illustrative]

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
WE up. About as dull as I'd imagine (sorry WE fans).

Leaving aside what its like now (we are at the end of term, have fun stage of the edition) Angron's new resurrection ability feels like something that shouldn't be in the game. Its about a 10% chance unless there are other ways to manipulate it.

"These rules are us trying to make a sensible game. These rules are for fluff and chuck any illusion of balance out the window."

I think they're great. What don't you like about the mechanic?

For me, its the rolling every turn for what the army can do. And the unpredictability of what your own units are going to be able to do from turn to turn.
From the opposite side of the table, 'suddenly, the entire army has lethal and sustained hits because dice' is just... unfun. Stacking bonuses on top of units that are already pushing the boundaries seems... excessive.

Agreed. It's the lack of interaction where one player is just playing Yahtzee and their army can go from having Advance and charge and a 6+ FNP one turn, to Lethal Hits, Sustained Hits and a 4+ fight on death the next. At least the old system was more linear and predictable for both players while still providing fluffy bonuses and incentives for the We player.

Tyel wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
3 or more sixes in 8 dice has about 34% probability, not around 10%.

I think its about 13.5%?

Wolfram Alpha says 1 in 16:

Tyel wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
3 or more sixes in 8 dice has about 34% probability, not around 10%.

I think its about 13.5%?

You're probably calculating for exactly three 6s, but you also need to consider four or more. I worked it out by calculating the probability for 0, 1 or 2 6s and subtracting their sum from 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
3 or more sixes in 8 dice has about 34% probability, not around 10%.

I think its about 13.5%?

Wolfram Alpha says 1 in 16:

Spoiler:

8 dice, not 6 dice

Slipspace wrote:
Agreed. It's the lack of interaction where one player is just playing Yahtzee and their army can go from having Advance and charge and a 6+ FNP one turn, to Lethal Hits, Sustained Hits and a 4+ fight on death the next. At least the old system was more linear and predictable for both players while still providing fluffy bonuses and incentives for the We player.

An outcome that you can affect by interacting with berserkers on objectives - from either side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:
8 dice, not 6 dice

Whoops, lol. Went full yahtzee. So, yea, 1 in 7.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Agreed. It's the lack of interaction where one player is just playing Yahtzee and their army can go from having Advance and charge and a 6+ FNP one turn, to Lethal Hits, Sustained Hits and a 4+ fight on death the next. At least the old system was more linear and predictable for both players while still providing fluffy bonuses and incentives for the We player.

An outcome that you can affect by interacting with berserkers on objectives - from either side.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tsagualsa wrote:
8 dice, not 6 dice

Whoops, lol. Went full yahtzee. So, yea, 1 in 7.

Ah well, i also made a mistake somewhere, so apologies to Slipspace

As I see it on 8 dice:

Odds of zero 6s = (5/6)^8=23.25%
Odds of 1 6 = (1/6)*(5/6)^7*8=37.21%
Odds of 2 6 = (1/6)^2*(5/6)^6*28=26.04%
Total: 86.5%

Therefore total 3 6s or higher is 13.5% (with a bit of rounding).

Tsagualsa wrote:

 oni wrote:
Quick question... Do we know if the 10th To Wound table is identical to 8th/9th edition? Are there any new caveats to 6+ always wounds?

People that played the Warhammerfest demo games said it was the same table.

Hmmm... Unfortunate. I was hopeful that the 6+ always wounds would be removed. Especially now that we have quite a few USR's that trigger off of Critical Hit & Wound rolls. It also would have made all toughness stat increases more meaningful. Damn!

 oni wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 oni wrote:
Quick question... Do we know if the 10th To Wound table is identical to 8th/9th edition? Are there any new caveats to 6+ always wounds?

People that played the Warhammerfest demo games said it was the same table.

Hmmm... Unfortunate. I was hopeful that the 6+ always wounds would be removed. Especially now that we have quite a few USR's that trigger off of Critical Hit & Wound rolls. It also would have made all toughness stat increases more meaningful. Damn!

Critical hit and wound ARE the "6+ always succeeds" shorthand

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 oni wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 oni wrote:
Quick question... Do we know if the 10th To Wound table is identical to 8th/9th edition? Are there any new caveats to 6+ always wounds?

People that played the Warhammerfest demo games said it was the same table.

Hmmm... Unfortunate. I was hopeful that the 6+ always wounds would be removed. Especially now that we have quite a few USR's that trigger off of Critical Hit & Wound rolls. It also would have made all toughness stat increases more meaningful. Damn!

Critical hit and wound ARE the "6+ always succeeds" shorthand

Rolling a 6+ on the To Wound roll to trigger an effect does not need to = 6+ always successfully wounds the target.

 oni wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 oni wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 oni wrote:
Quick question... Do we know if the 10th To Wound table is identical to 8th/9th edition? Are there any new caveats to 6+ always wounds?

People that played the Warhammerfest demo games said it was the same table.

Hmmm... Unfortunate. I was hopeful that the 6+ always wounds would be removed. Especially now that we have quite a few USR's that trigger off of Critical Hit & Wound rolls. It also would have made all toughness stat increases more meaningful. Damn!

Critical hit and wound ARE the "6+ always succeeds" shorthand

Rolling a 6+ on the To Wound roll to trigger an effect does not need to = 6+ always successfully wounds the target.

i mean, realistically, its mostly irrelevant, sure a lasgun can wound a titan, but the damage will be negligible.