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 Daedalus81 wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
Wonder how it works out against different units 3 damage is very useful against some units, especially those with 3 wounds. Strength 9 might make a difference against light vehicles and monsters, too. But the spear is just better against regular Marines so that's pretty much the decision made for most people.

Quick math.

36 Spear Attacks
30 hits
25 wounds against T3-, 20 against T4-6, 15 against T7, 10 against T8-13, 5 against T14
40/3 failed MEQ saves, for 40/3 or 13.33 dead MEQ, 40/3 failed TEQ saves or 6-7 dead TEQ

I think your breakpoint on W3 models isn't well represented here --

36 * .833 * .666 * .5 = 10 unsaved each being 2 damage, but needing 2 per model to kill puts them at 5 TEQ.

Yeah for some reason he's calculating 40/3 or about 13 failed save.

5with spear, 6.66 with axe

 JNAProductions wrote:


I don't get why Axes are WS 3+. They better be the cheaper option.

It's GW overcorrection as usual. They could've went with one less attack or one less WS, but they decide both because Axes were used more while not understanding why.

Voss wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

SOS don't look.... terrible. They will at least have a very small niche if embedded psyker characters start running the meta.

They don't look great. But they look at least passable for sniping squishy snipers out of units that rely on numbers of mooks to shield them. The weirdboy kind of jumps (pun intended) to mind.

Maybe silent sisters get some other shenanigans to mess with psykers even more when all the rules drop. Sofar the bananaboys look really solid. T7 terminators was unexpected.

If you aren't shooting at them with plasma, autocannons, assault cannons or multilasers (or alien equivalents) you basically won't notice toughness 7.

Big guns still wound on 3+, small arms still wound on 5+ (well not lasguns, but whatever. That's true for T6 too)

Like the strength 20+ weapons, it sounds like a bigger deal than it actually is.

Autocannons are S8 in 10th

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


I don't get why Axes are WS 3+. They better be the cheaper option.

It's GW overcorrection as usual. They could've went with one less attack or one less WS, but they decide both because Axes were used more while not understanding why.

Or.... it could be an evil plan to sell more kits as everyone'll soon need axes.

Ah, I was giving them a 3+ save base vs. spears.
That’s my math fail-so it’s 5 to 5.33. Barely in the Axe’s favor.

If the axes had the same amount of attacks or hit on 2+, would that make it a real choice, or just flip the balance to the other side?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
If the axes had the same amount of attacks or hit on 2+, would that make it a real choice, or just flip the balance to the other side?

My math compared equal numbers of attacks.
They’re barely any better against anything previewed even with the same number of attacks, and frequently worse.

So what changes would you make to make the axes worthwhile without flipping the balance so that spears suck?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So what changes would you make to make the axes worthwhile without flipping the balance so that spears suck?

WS2+ and AP-2 maybe?

Lose an attack, gain a damage a a bit of strength.
Maybe drop them to S8 if they do get those.

JNAProductions wrote:I don't get why Axes are WS 3+. They better be the cheaper option.

The in lore reason, though this really doesn't make sense, could be that they are more unwieldy like other heavy weapons.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So what changes would you make to make the axes worthwhile without flipping the balance so that spears suck?

I think just putting them back to WS 2+ would be enough. The axes have strength and damage, the spears get AP and attacks.

One thing I noticed is that the Misericordia no longer get any kind of extra attacks rules meaning that if you have them with the spears there is literally zero reason to ever use them.

 Lord Clinto wrote:
I'm happy with the Martial Ka'Tah and the Strat, but a little disappointed that I'm going to have to change all of my axes over to spears now.

And Sisters of Silence are even now, some how, more irrelevant than they were previously.

Same here, I like that the Katah's are simplified but disappointed with Sisters of Silence. Their whole purpose is to nullify psychic and they've lost that. Yeah I get that they want to move away from Aura's 90% of the time, but all they left Sisters with was a FnP vs Psychic, not even immunity. Disappointing to say the least.

There will likely be anti-psyker stratagems but that is a crutch for what should be an inherent ability. While the Prosecutors and Vigilators look a bit more dangerous, I'd rather have an anti-psyker ability on the data sheet rather than a marginal increase in killyness.

Every lost ability will return with a codex.

 p5freak wrote:
Every lost ability will return with a codex.

Catachan codex confirmed.

The issue is that we are sort of resetting to the indexes. In terms of gameplay this might not matter - but it matters in the world of theory.

We've had two expansions building up subfactions, armies of renown, countless stratagems, relics, warlord traits, psychic powers and so on. Much of that wasn't very powerful in game and indeed wasn't widely used - but it was a choice that existed. Now most of that's been chucked for a fixed army special rule - and a detachment rule. Which okay, will have alternatives in the codex (presumably) - but some factions may be without a codex for 2 years so are going to be stuck.

Its like going from an RPG with dozens of potential classes back to "you can play a warrior, a thief or a mage, have fun". The game might be fine - perhaps even better for it - but some will complain. Especially if they like warriors but not that kind of warrior. Which may be the case in about 75 minutes.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:


I don't get why Axes are WS 3+. They better be the cheaper option.

It's GW overcorrection as usual. They could've went with one less attack or one less WS, but they decide both because Axes were used more while not understanding why.

My point exactly. =(

Either one less attack OR one less WS; I would have grudgingly accepted either option, but both just hurts.

Codexes will be a wait though. Many armies will be using their Index rules for the for half or two-thirds of the run of 10th edition - so the Index rules still matter for those armies, regardless of what's eventually fixed in the Codexes.

With only 37 months left till 11th edition launches, the armies that get their Codexes two years from now will be using the Index rules far longer than the Codex ones.

Without a complete picture, there is always room for something to come along that changes our conclusions. Like there could easily be an "ignore all psyker powers" strategem for the sisters of silence. We are a bit like a blind man trying to describe an elephant right now.

 Trickstick wrote:
Without a complete picture, there is always room for something to come along that changes our conclusions. Like there could easily be an "ignore all psyker powers" strategem for the sisters of silence. We are a bit like a blind man trying to describe an elephant right now.

Not good enough - its like Marines having to get Botguns via a Strategem - anyone happy with that?

There are plenty of stuff they could have done if they could be bothered.

* They could have had a defensive Aura but hey not Marines so no defensive aura for them
* They could have had it so you could not target them with any kind of psychic attack - you know - like the lore.
* They could have had a negative impact on any nearby Psyker - you know like the lore

Why the feth do non damaging psychic abilities work fine on them now?

Boosykes wrote:
Look do sisters diserve more? Maybe but even in a lot of the lore they don't totally cancel all psykers. The emperor dident give a hoot about them malcador dident seem overly bothered. I assume magnus had no trouble with them.

At the end of the day it's a game and compleatly invalidating parts of it is bad. Basically what they finally learned this edition with moral.

In one of the SoT books (Saturnine or Echoes of Eternity I think) Malcador is at a strategy session with Dorn, Valdor & one of the SoS Leaders. It describes him as physically in pain and in a weakened state just being in close proximity to her.

If anything, to be more in line with the fluff, SoS should provide a bubble (even if only a 3" aura) of anti-psychic / null zone and be immune to powers themselves.

So with the new ork waaagh being "at the start of the battle round", does that mean that if you are going second that you have to do it in the opponents turn? A bit of an interesting 1st vs 2nd consideration for orks now.

 Trickstick wrote:
So with the new ork waaagh being "at the start of the battle round", does that mean that if you are going second that you have to do it in the opponents turn? A bit of an interesting 1st vs 2nd consideration for orks now.

Explicitly, yes.
Its not a very interesting design decision, honestly. It tells your opponent what you're going to do (if you're going second), so they can try to focus down your leading/dangerous elements. But you're orks, so charging once you're close enough is pretty much what the army does, so... that was telegraphed anyway.

But it does give you an opportunity to forget about using it in your opponent's turn, and not being able to retcon that because it would have had lots of carry-on effects with all the invulnerable saves. So... huzzah. Once people get used to it, it'll be fine, but it provides brain fart moments, and each turn you don't use it is a turn that you have less of your army to use it on.

Voss wrote:
...but it provides brain fart moments...

Apt for such a slow-witted xenos.

I think it's odd that Sisters of Silence don't do anything to psykers anymore. Sure, their guns get a bonus when they shoot at then, but the simple presence of a blank as powerful as your average Sister of Silence should terrify psykers. Seems extremely unusual that this was seemingly forgotten about.

Dudeface wrote:
Not a common complaint really, but a valid one even if understandable.

What, and the ones in your list aren't valid?

The Tyranid rule is boring. The fact that "Our weapons now kill us randomly!" is the unifying faction-defining rule GW has chosen for Chaos this edition is pretty gak. The fact that Marines have gone from "And They Shall Know No Fear" to "And They Shall Oaths of Moment" is really strange.

GW seem to have turned their face against Jidmah's old signature of "stand up for science, Orks are not a melee army".

Fairly confident that 99% of the time Waaagh will be activated on turn 2. Turn 1 charges from deployment are probably hard to do (outside Deffkoptas etc). Going 2nd might not be too bad if the opponent moves up the board nearer to you - but if you've explicitly advertised you are looking for a big connection, they'll surely just hold back so you can't.

Which could produce some cat and mouse play - but I suspect Orks will be balanced such that if you activate Waaagh and then do nothing but sit under a 5++ for a turn its going to suck.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think it's odd that Sisters of Silence don't do anything to psykers anymore. Sure, their guns get a bonus when they shoot at then, but the simple presence of a blank as powerful as your average Sister of Silence should terrify psykers. Seems extremely unusual that this was seemingly forgotten about.

It is an index, so one can imagine units are going to be light on rules comparing to the bonuses given by detachmants or codex rules.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Not a common complaint really, but a valid one even if understandable.

What, and the ones in your list aren't valid?

The Tyranid rule is boring. The fact that "Our weapons now kill us randomly" is the unifying faction-defining rule GW has chosen for Chaos is pretty gak.

Boon for a sacrifice seems fairly apt for most but not all chaos marines, so that's not perfect admittedly, but not sure it's worth a complaint about beyond a passing "that's a bit weird". The tyranid one being boring is wholly subjective, the issue is that it's a bit of an all or nothing chance ability that fires off once. The latter I consider a valid complaint.

Generally any that are based in "why aren't I marine" or wholly rooted in direct comparison to 9th edition profiles etc. likewise people who are complaining about mechanics that actually introduce gameplay variables such as the rad bombardment. DG get a special shout out because whilst I sympathise at their identity being attacked as it has, it is neither the end of the world nor an excuse to, as per reddit, go gaking on every other faction preview whining at every defensive rule every other faction gets.

Re oaths of moment instead of ATSKNF, you're right it's strange, but strange isn't bad necessarily, it's a passing "that's a bit weird" again.

Well DG got a bad index set of rules, after a kind of a meh edition of nerfs and side grades, and they aren't on the list for a fast update. So the players will be stuck with what ever they get right now. They really don't have much to be happy about. And they voice it out loud. GK and 1ksons were saying that AtW is a bad secondary, and it took GW almost 3 years to notice that.

And expecting for people to be happy for others, when they are bad, is a bit much. Especialy with a game that costs as much time and money as w40k.

Karol wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I think it's odd that Sisters of Silence don't do anything to psykers anymore. Sure, their guns get a bonus when they shoot at then, but the simple presence of a blank as powerful as your average Sister of Silence should terrify psykers. Seems extremely unusual that this was seemingly forgotten about.

It is an index, so one can imagine units are going to be light on rules comparing to the bonuses given by detachmants or codex rules.

If you imagine that, you're going to be disappointed.
The books will bring new detachments allowing you to swap one set of [detachment abilities, strats and enhancements] for another.
If you're expecting another complete rewrite of faction abilities and datacards, you're in fantasy land.

(Halfway through the 10th edition books, that might change. But for now, units and faction rules will be as you see them.

Karol wrote:
Well DG got a bad index set of rules, after a kind of a meh edition of nerfs and side grades, and they aren't on the list for a fast update. So the players will be stuck with what ever they get right now. They really don't have much to be happy about. And they voice it out loud. GK and 1ksons were saying that AtW is a bad secondary, and it took GW almost 3 years to notice that.

And expecting for people to be happy for others, when they are bad, is a bit much. Especialy with a game that costs as much time and money as w40k.

It doesn't matter what DG have now or what happened to them in 8th or 9th though, that's exactly the point. It's also not, in isolation, a bad set of rules as far as we know.

There is a lot of potential for changing an army with just detachments and enhancements. You can change a gunline focussed guard into an armoured company or light infantry. Plus, I'm guessing new units would be added in the codex? Sure, the base units may not change themselves, but how they are used could.

For example, an ork dakka detachment which changes sustained hits to ranged would be a big change for a small rule.