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RazorEdge wrote:
Can't see a "permanent" Starter Set for Epic would become FOMO and get scalped.

I think they'll follow the path used when AT-18 launched. I really don't see FW going the normal Starter Set route that GW uses.

Every EPIC relaunch in the Past had a Thicc big Boxed Set. Can't see why this shouldn't happen again.

RazorEdge wrote:
Every EPIC relaunch in the Past had a Thicc big Boxed Set. Can't see why this shouldn't happen again.

Everyone but the last one, that is, Epic: Armageddon.

I don't think a marketing plan from 26 years ago is terribly relevant in this case either way.

 gorgon wrote:
I don't think a marketing plan from 26 years ago is terribly relevant in this case either way.

The AT-18 launch is probably the pattern to look at. Similar focus for both - i.e. launching a new game - and not all that long ago.

GW has done different sized box sets for different games. The current HH box has a huge number of models but is expensive. AT and Necromunda both had big expensive boxes, but those were replaced (eventually) by smaller sets with less contents.

My guess is that there will be a big box of lots of models (they are small, so maybe a ridiculous amount of units) plus terrain (maybe one new type plus the current buildings). The big box will sell out like the AT one did, and then a starter box will be released (eventually) with about half the contents for 2/3 the price.

I don't think existing terrain will be used. New terrain would help boost sales by people who only want the terrain and would sell the units to help cover their costs. You lose that if you include terrain that's already available.

 Breotan wrote:
I don't think existing terrain will be used. New terrain would help boost sales by people who only want the terrain and would sell the units to help cover their costs. You lose that if you include terrain that's already available.

Plus, the existing terrain that GW sells is built around the sorts of things that might interfere with a fight between titans. Infantry and vehicles are much lower to the ground, and you can have buildings that aren't massive structures, but will still provide decent cover.

AT and Necromunda but had big expensive boxes, but those were replaced (eventually) by smaller sets with less contents.

I disagree on AT. The original starter was limited because there was only one titan and one knight available. So the starter had two warlords and half a dozen knights. The current starter (sold out, of course) has two reavers, two warhounds, and two cerastus knights. Fewer individual models, it's true. But it's fewer knights in exchange for more titans. And the variety seems more useful for players who are just starting the game. The original Grand Master edition did contain terrain that's not found in the current starter. But aside from that, I'd argue that the current starter is better for new players.

 Breotan wrote:
I don't think existing terrain will be used. New terrain would help boost sales by people who only want the terrain and would sell the units to help cover their costs. You lose that if you include terrain that's already available.

I can see a mix of the old terrain with some new sprues to make ruins and damaged buildings. The old terrain is quite good, no reason not to use it to pad out a box and make it fit in existing AT table collections.

RazorEdge wrote:
Every EPIC relaunch in the Past had a Thicc big Boxed Set. Can't see why this shouldn't happen again.

Fingers crossed!

Some sort of set that is a reference to the original 1st edition HH/Space Marine boxset might be a possibility.
If I had to make a prediction I would say a sprue with a tactical, heavy/special weapon and command infantry. Then perhaps another sprue with rhinos and landraiders.

For terrain, if that is included, perhaps some plastic ruins? To differentiate from the larger, Titan-useful terrain that we have already seen from AT (although I can attest that terrain is also great for Epic!)

Eumerin wrote:

I disagree on AT. The original starter was limited because there was only one titan and one knight available.

Well they could have put reavers and warhounds but opted to spread releases.

But the 2 others came so soon if gw had wanted they could have used them too.

But get full price for most over discount also terrain good there as more people buy full price titans than terrain. Good to bulk up discount box value without hurting full price sales.

When I got 1st edition Space Marine it was a single frame, several times over, each woith

2x land raider, when they came in units of two
4x rhino
8x stands of infantry, all identical

it worked, it worked well, was two armies or one larger army depending how you painted it.

would not be hard these days to do better in the same sized frames

yes its marine v marine, but there you go - a frame with Rhino and land raiders, and a few bits for rhino versions then something like the old Mk VII frame with different marines/bikes etc seems likely

whatever they do they need to do it soon and do it well or 3d printing will eat their lunch and make it far less viable

Ruins as Terrain make sense, we had them also in Epic40k.

I guess we will see more than Land Raiders, Rhinos and Tactical Squads in a new EPIC Starter Set...

leopard wrote:
was two armies or one larger army depending how you painted it.

I remember it fondly, I was 10, and I painted it poorly.

twentypence wrote:

leopard wrote:
was two armies or one larger army depending how you painted it.

I remember it fondly, I was 10, and I painted it poorly.

I had a similar experience.

twentypence wrote:

leopard wrote:
was two armies or one larger army depending how you painted it.

I remember it fondly, I was 10, and I painted it poorly.

remember buying two copies, I wanted the buildings, with Christmas money, got "Mighty Empires" at the same time

the dark blue ones got a blue drybrush then silver tracks and toilet seat logos of variable quality*

the green ones got a blue/grey then lighter grey as space wolves, with a recognisable yellow & read wolfs head on the door, making them the only space wolf army I have ever owned. chosen because I had the colours from the Space Marine paint set.

the amount of paint those poor poor models got over the next few years was terrible, I think they ended up a sort of desert yellow colour


* varying from poor to terrible

What I'm curious about is how they'll set up the infantry. In earlier editions, SM units were formed mostly in the same manner as 40k Tactical squads - one heavy weapon per two stands of regular guys. In EA, Jervis changed this to one heavy weapon per stand. The 40k scale HH introduced SM units which deviate significantly from this format.

Tactical Squad = 9 Bolter Marines and 1 Sergeant on 2 Bases
Heavy Support Squad = 9 Heavy Weapon Marines and 1 Sergeant on 2 Bases

Problem solved.

Yes, but what about the Tactical Support Squads or the various specialty squads that different Legions had? I wonder if Forge World will produce these in enough detail to matter.

Well you can 3D print them with some pretty excellent detail, so unless GW want 3D printing to dominate the market they will want to at least try to make something that represents those units.

1st edition had the following

- tactical stand (5 bolter marines)
- support stand (4 bolter marines & 1 heavy weapon)
- assault stand (5 assault marines)
- heavy weapon stand (3 bolter marines & 2 heavy weapons)
- command stand (4 marines & 1 commander - exact mix could vary though)

in the early versions of the box set these were the same models, on four coloured bases, later they needed some sort of marking added and eventually the actual models came out with nowhere near enough heavy weapon models

have seen very nice stl files in 6mm that would give you a range of 5-10 man squads with all models slightly different and every weapon option you could wish for, plus various legion specific models

I can't see Tactical Support Squads in EPIC. How should they work?

RazorEdge wrote:
I can't see Tactical Support Squads in EPIC. How should they work?

The Epic AU rules have them.

You take a Tactical Detachment (8 bases of Tactical Marines), and you can either add up to 4 bases of either Tactical Support or Heavy Support squad.

Tactical Support bases have AP4+ and ignores cover, while Heavy Support have longer range and AT6+.

support stands were basically the other "half" of a tactical squad initially, a tactical detachment being half and half with tactical stands IIRC

keep in mind it tended to be simplified, tactical stands had bolters, support squads had support weapons, devastator stands had heavier stuff and assault stands had the curious battle cry "equipped with jump packs"

The other important thing is that Epic is quite abstract by its nature, so the ratio of heavy weapon guys to bolter guys has changed over the years, and in practice you see different stuff on the tabletop.

As long as it's made clear to your opponent then it's fine.

Could see Heavy Weapon Anti-Tank and Heavy Weapon Anti-Infantry Squads.

A new version of Epic could get expensive pretty quick.

Looking at AT-18 and AA as a guide, I can see 6 Rhinos going for $45 usd and upgrades such as the Vindicator, Whirlwind, Predators, etc. going at the same price for four. I can also see them selling a Company's worth of SM at that price. Buildings and objectives would likely be set up identically to stuff already released.

IG would likely follow a similar price structure for their stuff.

So, what models (and numbers) do people expect to see in a large box release costing around $300-ish usd?

Not expecting much to be honest as GW have continually passed up on easy-wins for both AT and AI. I also still have my doubts as to whether this is really a new rule set or just Adeptus Titanicus expanded to include tanks and troops.

But either way, we could be looking at some sprues from the current AT terrain sets and obviously marines with land raiders and rhinos. Probably a pair warhounds and some knights too.

I'm guessing whatever it is to be called Adeptus Astartes: The Horus Heresy.

Final Liberation from 1997 is now free on GOG.

SamusDrake wrote:
Not expecting much to be honest as GW have continually passed up on easy-wins for both AT and AI. I also still have my doubts as to whether this is really a new rule set or just Adeptus Titanicus expanded to include tanks and troops

If they go with the latter, that is exactly what was done in 1989 with the first edition of Space Marine

Are there any longbeards here who played it? I started with Space Marine 2nd edition (the one with Ultramarines on the cover) which apparently was a vastly simplified version of the original. From what I have read, the original had a crazy level of detail (rules for infantry ambushing armour amongst buildings and things like that) and took a very long time to play.