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I reckon army building will be like 4th - fixed detachments and layouts. In a way, 4th is very similar to 2nd without the cards.

And I can see GW releasing a set of handy army cards for reference with each new release that are stock limited...

I’m intrigued as to how large the companies or equivalent are going to be.

In 2nd Ed they were pretty substantial for all the races (except Nids who had their unique card system). But I could see smaller ones allowing for greater player freedom.

Maybe we’ll see Demi Company, Company and Grand Company sizes, with different detachment and Special Card equivalents?

Purely speculation and pondering.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m intrigued as to how large the companies or equivalent are going to be.

Maybe we’ll see Demi Company, Company and Grand Company sizes, with different detachment and Special Card equivalents?

You'll probably get a mixture of generic detachments mixed with Legion specific detachments. I wouldn't be surprised if the detachments don't end up being named after the rites of war (Pride of the Legion for a Veteran/Terminator Detachment, Armoured Spearhead for Tanks, etc etc).

Remember even SM 2nd had Chapter-specific companies and detachments (Dark Angel Deathwing etc.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they have taken a leaf from the community ruleset Imperialis Dominatus - that system has basically re-made all of the Heresy-specific units into equivalent Epic companies and detachments
https://imperiusdominatus.org/#Army%20Books%20&%20Cards

An example of a few. The ruleset itself is an expansion of 2nd edition/NetEpic

 schoon wrote:
On the "plastic turd" between the legs issue:

While not ideal, this just doesn't seem like that big a deal to alter/remove. If you're a perfectionist about your minis, you likely have the skill to do this. No worse than the old slotta bases.

We'll have to see, because it attaches to the sides of the legs it might be fiddly to get it off.

I'd rather they just didn't have it, I imagine it's there because it's tricky to get them off the sprue without the legs being joined, but the trick is to not use clippers but rather use a sharp fresh blade. Either that or I'd rather they just did it like the old ones that had a circular base, those genuinely could be hidden easily by basing materials.


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 Pacific wrote:
Remember even SM 2nd had Chapter-specific companies and detachments (Dark Angel Deathwing etc.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they have taken a leaf from the community ruleset Imperialis Dominatus - that system has basically re-made all of the Heresy-specific units into equivalent Epic companies and detachments
https://imperiusdominatus.org/#Army%20Books%20&%20Cards

I actually would have guessed detachments are going to be more flexible in terms of their content. Maybe it means nothing, but the picture of the starter set box contents has grouped the infantry into 9 base groups. One has a command + 6 tactical bases + 2 heavy weapons bases, the other SM group has command + 4 tacticals + 2 Terminators + 2 Assault Marines. The Solar Auxilia are 1 command + some mix of assault-looking-dudes and rifle-looking-dudes.


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 Snord wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I don't think it's "zomg!1!11 ThIs iS unUsaBle" levels of bad... but these are going to be premium priced models so they deserved to be nitpicked.

You are wildly overstating the issue. The blobs around their feet only show up because the unit bases that GW have designed for them are so flat and featureless (although you can see that the GW painters have tried to make the blobs look like tactical rocks). I think what they did makes sense from a model design perspective - you want these small models to have decent point of contact on the base. Just put a few bits of gravel (rubble) around the feet, and some staticgrass, and the blobs will disappear.

Overstating? You literally quoted the part where I said they're premium priced products therefore deserve to be nitpicked

If these were bargain basement models I'd hold them to a different standard, but given GW's history you're likely going to be selling you first born to play Epic

 Pacific wrote:
Remember even SM 2nd had Chapter-specific companies and detachments (Dark Angel Deathwing etc.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they have taken a leaf from the community ruleset Imperialis Dominatus - that system has basically re-made all of the Heresy-specific units into equivalent Epic companies and detachments
https://imperiusdominatus.org/#Army%20Books%20&%20Cards

...snip...

Oh man, getting me excited. Though, as I said above, if the army building is like 2nd or 4th, I can easily imagine a set of limited release army cards for army construction...

Hm... I mean, detachment cards are cool and all, but weirdly limiting, particularly when you have an ecclectic collection.

But we can at least say that transports are a separate support option to detachments, given what we see on the box

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Remember even SM 2nd had Chapter-specific companies and detachments (Dark Angel Deathwing etc.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they have taken a leaf from the community ruleset Imperialis Dominatus - that system has basically re-made all of the Heresy-specific units into equivalent Epic companies and detachments
https://imperiusdominatus.org/#Army%20Books%20&%20Cards

I actually would have guessed detachments are going to be more flexible in terms of their content. Maybe it means nothing, but the picture of the starter set box contents has grouped the infantry into 9 base groups. One has a command + 6 tactical bases + 2 heavy weapons bases, the other SM group has command + 4 tacticals + 2 Terminators + 2 Assault Marines. The Solar Auxilia are 1 command + some mix of assault-looking-dudes and rifle-looking-dudes.

Looks like Command, 4 Tactical, 2 slots of 2 special stands for the marines.

It's 2 heavy and 2 special weapons, not 6 Tac and 2 heavy.

Edit: Actually looks the same for Solar Aux. 4 basic infantry and then 2x flamers + 2x Axes

Vorian wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
Remember even SM 2nd had Chapter-specific companies and detachments (Dark Angel Deathwing etc.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they have taken a leaf from the community ruleset Imperialis Dominatus - that system has basically re-made all of the Heresy-specific units into equivalent Epic companies and detachments
https://imperiusdominatus.org/#Army%20Books%20&%20Cards

I actually would have guessed detachments are going to be more flexible in terms of their content. Maybe it means nothing, but the picture of the starter set box contents has grouped the infantry into 9 base groups. One has a command + 6 tactical bases + 2 heavy weapons bases, the other SM group has command + 4 tacticals + 2 Terminators + 2 Assault Marines. The Solar Auxilia are 1 command + some mix of assault-looking-dudes and rifle-looking-dudes.

Looks like Command, 4 Tactical, 2 slots of 2 special stands for the marines.

It's 2 heavy and 2 special weapons, not 6 Tac and 2 heavy.

Edit: Actually looks the same for Solar Aux. 4 basic infantry and then 2x flamers + 2x Axes

You have better eyes than I

But yeah, I wonder if that means some flexibility in how detachments are assembled rather than the rigid fixed detachments of some previous editions.

I personally like Epic 40k's method of almost complete freedom, it let you build armies free form with very little restriction on needing to take X of this and Y of that. But I think a lot of people were confused with it and used it to try and make 40k-like mini armies.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Woooooo!!!

That same article wrote: This edition is one of the major influences for the Legions Imperialis rules – but it’s important to note that they are not the same game.

Woooooooooooooooooooooooo! I’ll take 2nd Ed being the major influence!

"This edition is one of the"

who knows what that actually means

Other influence being Trolls in the Pantry?

I suppose it's the fact they didn't mention that on any of the other edition notes (other than putting the boot in with Armageddon, which I think has upset a fair few people on the community pages!)

Any wild bets on what tomorrow’s reveal is gonna be?

I think maybe Vindicators.

Rhino APC... or Space Marine Infantry, which isn't Part of the Launch Box.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Any wild bets on what tomorrow’s reveal is gonna be?

I think maybe Vindicators.

A flyer would be nice, but what we really need is a look at the rules.

If they start revealing tanks like that before the Rhino and Land Raider, then really what the hell is going on?!

Marines in Mk4 Armour please!


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The tabs on the Terminators look silly when Parts of the Feets (Toes) are missing.... and makes them impossible to remove without missing Parts on those Bodies.

Still much better than the old tabs in my opinion.

Someone please pass the salt...

A mysterious pastebin link has been floating around online since last week, listing Heresy units with Epic-style stats:
https://pastebin.com/GJfHMNzY
Full text below in case in gets taken down.

Reasons to think that it might be geniune:

The posting date lines up with when GW would normally send out preview copies to content creators

The unit stats look similar (but not the same) as 2nd edition Epic

This was posted online before GW confirmed the new rules are inspired by that edition of the rules.

Detachment Name Move Sv CAF Morale W Detachment Size Unit Type Points Legion Command 5" 4+ +4 2+ 1 1 Infantry (1) 25 Legion Rhino Detachment 9" 4+ +0 3+ 1 Variable Vehicle (2) 10 Legion Tactical Detachment 5" 5+ +2 3+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 35 -Legion Terminators 5" 4+ +4 3+ 1 +2 Infantry (1) +15 -Assault Marines 7" 5+ +3 3+ 1 +2 Infantry (1) +12 Legion Plasma Gun Support Detachment 5" 5+ +2 3+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 35 Legion Missile Launcher Support Detachment 5" 5+ +1 3+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 40 Legion Assault Detachment 7" 5+ +3 3+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 30 Legion Terminator Detachment 5" 4+ +4 3+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 50 Legion Rapier Battery Detachment 4" 5+ +1 3+ 1 2 Infantry (1) 40 Leviathan Siege Dreadnought Detachment 5" 4+ +5 3+ 1 4 Walker (1) 75 Legion Dreadnought Talon 5" 4+ +5 3+ 1 4 Walker (1) 70 -Leviathan Siege Dreadnought 5" 4+ +5 3+ 1 +2 Walker (1) +35 Legion Tarantula Battery - 5+ - 3- 1 4 Infantry (1) 36 Legion Deredeo Dreadnought Detachment 5" 4+ +2 3+ 1 4 Walker (1) 85 Legion Predator Squadron 9" 3+ +2 3+ 1 3 Vehicle (2) 115 Legion Sicaran Squadron 10" 3+ +2 3+ 1 2 Vehicle (2) 105 Legion Kratos Squadron 8" 2+ +3 3+ 2 2 Vehicle (2) 150 Legion Xiphon Interceptor Squadron 30" 3+ +0 - 1 1 Vehicle (2) 95 Legion Storm Eagle Squadron 25" 3+ +0 - 1 1 Vehicle (2) 100 Legion Fire Raptor Squadron 25" 3+ +0 - 1 1 Vehicle (2) 100 Legion Thunderhawk Gunship 25" 2+ +0 - 2 1 Vehicle (2) 150 Detachment Name Move Sv CAF Morale W Detachment Size Unit Type Points Questoris Knight Banner 8" 3+ +8 2+ 3 1 Knight (4) 180 -Knight Styrix 8" 3+ +8 2+ 3 1 Knight (4) +15 -Knight Magaera 8" 3+ +8 2+ 3 1 Knight (4) +15 Cerastus Knight Banner 9" 3+ +11 2+ 3 1 Knight (4) 215 -Cerastus Knight Atrapos 9" 3+ +11 2+ 3 1 Knight (4) +20 Acastus Knight Banner 6" 2+ +7 2+ 3 1 Knight (4) 250 Questoris Knight Armiger Talon 8" 3+ +6 2+ 2 +3 Knight (4) +180 Mechanicum Knight Moirax Talon 8" 3+ +6 2+ 2 +3 Knight (4) +200 Warhound Hunting Pack 7" 2+ +10 - 4 1 Titan (5) 330 Dire Wolf Heavy Scout Titan 7" 2+ +10 - 4 1 Titan (5) 385 Reaver Battle Titan 6" 2+ +12 - 5 1 Titan (5) 415 Warbringer Nemesis Titan 5" 2+ +12 - 5 1 Titan (5) 525 Warlord Battle Titan 5" 2+ +14 - 6 1 Titan (5) 600 Warlord-Sinister Battle Titan 5" 2+ +14 - 6 1 Titan (5) 675 Warmaster Heavy Battle Titan 5" 1+ +18 - 7 1 Titan (5) 750 Warmaster Iconoclast Titan 6" 1+ +18 - 7 1 Titan (5) 750 Detachment Name Move Sv CAF Morale W Detachment Size Unit Type Points Legate Commander Detachment 5" 6+ +3 2+ 1 1 Infantry (1) 16 Auxilia Tactical Command Detachment 5" 6+ +1 3+ 1 1 Infantry (1) 10 Auxilia Lasrifle Tercio 5" 6+ +0 4+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 30 -Veletarii 5" 6+ +1 4+ 1 +2 Infantry (1) +12 -Charonite Ogryns 5" 6+ +3 4+ 1 +2 Infantry (1) +15 Auxilia Ogryn Charonite Section 5" 6+ +3 4+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 50 Auxilia Veletaris Storm Section 5" 6+ +1 4+ 1 4 Infantry (1) 40 Auxilia Rapier Battery 4" 6+ +0 4+ 1 3 Infantry (1) 50 Auxilia Tarantula Battery - 5+ -3 - 1 4 Infantry (1) 36 Auxilia Aethon Heavy Sentinel Patrol 7" 4+ +0 4+ 1 2 Walker (1) 35 Leman Russ Strike Squadron 8" 2+ +2 4+ 1 4 Vehicle (2) 175 Malcador Tank Squadron 9" 3+ +2 4+ 2 2 Vehicle (2) 165 Auxilia Super-heavy Tank Squadron 7" 2+ +4 4+ 2 1 Super-heavy Vehicle (3) 100 Auxilia Thunderbolt Squadron 25" 4+ +0 - 1 1 Vehicle (2) 80 Auxilia Avenger Strike Fighter Squadron 28" 4+ +0 - 1 1 Vehicle (2) 85 Auxilia Lightning Fighter Squadron 30" 4+ +0 - 1 1 Vehicle (2) 85 Auxilia Marauder Bomber Squadron 24" 3+ +0 - 1 1 Vehicle (2) 85 -Auxilia Marauder PathfindeR 22" 3+ +0 - 1 - Vehicle (2) +0 -Auxilia Marauder Colossus 22" 3+ +0 - 1 - Vehicle (2) +0 -Auxilia Marauder Destroyer 24" 3+ +0 - 1 - Vehicle (2) +10 Auxilia Arvus Lighter 25" 4+ +0 - 1 Variable Vehicle (2) 12

Well that is interesting. I wonder if it could be real. I love to review stats.

I am a bit concerned that I don’t see any Arty units (I think, not totally familiar with Heresy units.). Did 2nd handle artillery as off board? Or was ther not much arty in Epic? That is the main thing that jumps out at me. I’ll see if I can review some of these numbers and find some patterns, but I have little previous Epic experience.

Thanks,
Duncan

 vadersson wrote:
Well that is interesting. I wonder if it could be real. I love to review stats.

I am a bit concerned that I don’t see any Arty units (I think, not totally familiar with Heresy units.). Did 2nd handle artillery as off board? Or was ther not much arty in Epic? That is the main thing that jumps out at me. I’ll see if I can review some of these numbers and find some patterns, but I have little previous Epic experience.

Thanks,
Duncan

No, onboard artillery in Epic is definitely a thing. Hell, one of the things in the core Space Marine sprue were Whirlwinds.

They mentioned Basilisks in one of the Articles on WarCom.

No Land Rider detachment either, despite Rhinos being in their own detachment?

Well that's interesting, I had read that that list was doing the rounds on the Epic Discord channel.

Yes it is the same stat list as SM 2nd, the only difference being the addition of a 'W' column (wounds?) It looks like a 'split' version of the original stat sheets, and so we are missing range, dice, to hit roll, saving throw modifier, if it were to follow the original format.

It looks like the Titans cost a lot less points (a Warlord is 600, vs 900 in the original). This might be useless if just viewed by itself, but a tactical detachment (calculated using the original format of 6 squads and 3 rhinos) comes to exactly the same points as the original, 250pts.

The movement values look about right, converting from CM to inches.

One red flag is the absence of a Land Raider.

We know from the articles that there are different weapons for tanks, dreads, and titans. Maybe the final cost includes weapons which are not here? That would certainly increase vehicle and Titan costs and why the stats are not in line.

Overall, I think this looks cool, let’s hope there is some truth to it.

Hmm. I smell poo.

But then, I am watching Mac & Me, so it could be that.

Im going to be very annoyed if they just go to straight wounds for titans, Thats just not how titans die. Why they wouldnt use the up down left right dice is a question in itself, but if they just go to wounds.....well I probably will not like that aspect.

Also the largest unit we see is detachment, no companies. I have a feeling this game is going to have smaller engagements than 2nd ed.

I agree about the titans, that's very similar to Armageddon and in my opinion the worst aspect of that system. I loved how in SM you could get Titans gradually getting damaged or worn down, or just taken out by a sudden KO.

So from that perspective, I hope it is fake (or at least there is more to it!)

 Pacific wrote:
I agree about the titans, that's very similar to Armageddon and in my opinion the worst aspect of that system. I loved how in SM you could get Titans gradually getting damaged or worn down, or just taken out by a sudden KO.

So from that perspective, I hope it is fake (or at least there is more to it!)

It will really depend on how playable you want the game to be with titans. The more complex they are to use and track, the less you can actually field.

There's also another whole game to use titans that way.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I agree about the titans, that's very similar to Armageddon and in my opinion the worst aspect of that system. I loved how in SM you could get Titans gradually getting damaged or worn down, or just taken out by a sudden KO.

So from that perspective, I hope it is fake (or at least there is more to it!)

It will really depend on how playable you want the game to be with titans. The more complex they are to use and track, the less you can actually field.

There's also another whole game to use titans that way.

AT is much more complicated than 2nd ed Titians. 2nd ed Titans with the exception of the Emperor Titan were pretty quick. The amount of flavor you got out of rolling one more handful of dice (two direction dice and a d6) was well worth the process. Titans got so generic in editions after 2nd, it was one of the things that turned me off the game. If a warlord now has 6 regenerable shields and then 6 wounds....it could take forever to take them down and its also very boring.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I agree about the titans, that's very similar to Armageddon and in my opinion the worst aspect of that system. I loved how in SM you could get Titans gradually getting damaged or worn down, or just taken out by a sudden KO.

So from that perspective, I hope it is fake (or at least there is more to it!)

It will really depend on how playable you want the game to be with titans. The more complex they are to use and track, the less you can actually field.

There's also another whole game to use titans that way.

AT is much more complicated than 2nd ed Titians. 2nd ed Titans with the exception of the Emperor Titan were pretty quick. The amount of flavor you got out of rolling one more handful of dice (two direction dice and a d6) was well worth the process. Titans got so generic in editions after 2nd, it was one of the things that turned me off the game. If a warlord now has 6 regenerable shields and then 6 wounds....it could take forever to take them down and its also very boring.

Can't really say... what I can say, though, by experience, is that in Epic 40k a Warlord Titan had 6 Void Shields and 12 damage points, and, if anything, they always felt a bit too fragile.

Also they had critical damage and catastrophic damage tables, which spiced things up (and a fair number of weapons always crit)