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Things of beauty. Love the new design tarantulas

The support box looks great, and probably that and a box of Knights will fill out the launch set just nicely.

I did a bit of calculation work. Based on the potentially fake data posted on paste bin and the contents of the starter and the support box I calculated the following points.

Starter Box: 1737.5 points.
Support box: 276 points.

A couple comments. I think that this shows that weapons for things like Titans and potentially tanks likely impact points. I would expect at least the starter to have a nice round number like 2000 points.
I also have some errors due to some detachments shown as alternatives for add on squads like adding 2 assault squads to a tactical detachment vs a 4 squad detachment. I might clean up my calls later.
For the support box, I also expect different weapons affect the cost as it would likely be around 300 points.
Also, I believe some of the articles said games would likely be around 3000 points,
Again, take that all with a grain of salt.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're very pretty, but I think most've us would prefer plastic 30k scale versions...

Nah, I'm good, 30k makes much more sense at Epic scale for me.

And it's not like making a 32mm scale model is equivalent to doing it 8mm scale, the resources required for the former dwarf the latter.

SamusDrake wrote:
The support box looks great, and probably that and a box of Knights will fill out the launch set just nicely.

As long as you want to rawdog it and flootslog with everything

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're very pretty, but I think most've us would prefer plastic 30k scale versions...

Eh? What thread are you in?! Absolutely not. War is best enacted at Epic scale.

Wonder if we’ll see Drop Pods done the old way?

Take your Drop Pod Counters you nominated to arrive that turn. Put them on a blaster marker.

Hold Blast marker 30cm above the board. Tip it.

Where the tokens land, the Drop Pods land…

 Nils wrote:
I would be OK with a price around £30 for a box like that. Of course I'm hoping for a lower price but I don't think it's very likely.

It'll need to be a lot lower if they want it to pick up in the US. A 30£ (38.62$) aeronautica box, is 50$ over here, which is nearly 40£s. Titanicus is even worse. The knight castigator/acheron box (since that's the ony one lest on the US site) is 75, which is 58£. The difference in US and British prices are getting wider every time, and I can't foresee epic picking up over here well without it. Aeronautica certainly didn't, and most people I know who play titanicus mainly bought the starter set, maybe an extra warhound or reaver. Necromunda boxes being 60$ has been an issue I've seen some mention as well. Necromunda luckily was already entrentched and you only really need a single box+books.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we’ll see Drop Pods done the old way?

Take your Drop Pod Counters you nominated to arrive that turn. Put them on a blaster marker.

Hold Blast marker 30cm above the board. Tip it.

Where the tokens land, the Drop Pods land…

I seriously hope so, there was significant skill to develop in learning when not to sneeze

I don't think I can resist.

Now I have to sell a boat load of 40k stuff to make way for this, because I can see myself going in big and hard for Epic.

Loved it back in the 90's, so glad to see it return with, what looks to be a good plastic range.

If they don't fluff the rules for this, and don't price themselves out v 3d printed proxies this has the potential for a huge nostalgia boost

they need to ride the wave though

 vadersson wrote:
I did a bit of calculation work. Based on the potentially fake data posted on paste bin and the contents of the starter and the support box I calculated the following points.

Starter Box: 1737.5 points.
Support box: 276 points.

A couple comments. I think that this shows that weapons for things like Titans and potentially tanks likely impact points. I would expect at least the starter to have a nice round number like 2000 points.

The contents of starter boxes like this are generally decided well before the rules are finalised, possibly before they're even started. Therefore I wouldn't expect any nice round numbers.

However they are generally (as posted earlier in this thread) targeted to be around 50-60% of a typical full-size army, which lines up with your calculation if Epic is normally played at 3000pts like 28mm HH.

 Albertorius wrote:


As long as you want to rawdog it and flootslog with everything

I love it when you talk dirty!

 xttz wrote:

 vadersson wrote:
I did a bit of calculation work. Based on the potentially fake data posted on paste bin and the contents of the starter and the support box I calculated the following points.

Starter Box: 1737.5 points.
Support box: 276 points.

A couple comments. I think that this shows that weapons for things like Titans and potentially tanks likely impact points. I would expect at least the starter to have a nice round number like 2000 points.

The contents of starter boxes like this are generally decided well before the rules are finalised, possibly before they're even started. Therefore I wouldn't expect any nice round numbers.

However they are generally (as posted earlier in this thread) targeted to be around 50-60% of a typical full-size army, which lines up with your calculation if Epic is normally played at 3000pts like 28mm HH.

We also have them saying that a typical battle has above 100 playing pieces per side; the starting box has 58, which would also track your estimat of between 50-60% quite well.

People in this thread are suggesting some seriously low prices for this.

I set my expectations based on similar sized releases that GW has done previously; the Aeronautica boxed sets. Using that as a guide, this box set should be priced at £60/$100.

The wildcard is how much of that price was due to the Aeronautica bases. In theory these thinner bases could shave a bit off the price.

should start to see the pre-order prices for retailers reasonably soon

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
They're very pretty, but I think most've us would prefer plastic 30k scale versions...

I'll go with both. The Deredeo is coming in the next HH box set with the Mk III armor, just the Rapier and potentially Tarantula to go for full size, but assault and command squads will be coming first.

The fire support kit looks aight, but show us the Rhinos and Land Raiders already!

I wonder if these dreads offer any poseability..

dreads look like the arms are separate, with luck the legs and body are as well

Glad to see 3 different dreads available so quickly. Hopefully extra weapons come out eventually, even if just for aesthetic purposes.

 Breotan wrote:
I set my expectations based on similar sized releases that GW has done previously; the Aeronautica boxed sets. Using that as a guide, this box set should be priced at £60/$100.

Not sure how you get to that price using AI as a guide, they were all £30-37.5 squadrons.

Unless you're talking about the starter set being £60, which sounds way too low to me given the Warhounds alone are £45 separately.

https://spikeybits.com/2023/07/sorry-gw-legions-imperialis-is-a-hard-pass-for-us.html

Spikey bits brings up some good points. Hopefully GW has learned from AT how not to release a game. Games like AT and Necromunda where you are always fishing and paying for rules seriously drags down a games accessibility.

The new models look great and I'd say getting that kind of detail from a 3d printer would be difficult, not so much from a printing stand point, but finding someone do design the sculpts as nice and detailed at that scale. A lot of (but not all) the Epic scale STLs you can find on line are about as detailed as the old second edition stuff. There are some really well detailed vehicle STLs, but Im not sure I've seen dreadnoughts that detailed. Plus small fiddely bits like dreadnought arms can be a pain to remove from supports. So it could certainly be worth buying these instead of printing them depending on the price.

Im still not understanding the numbers though. Is a support attachment just two models/stands now? It looks more like epic 40k where you makes small armies, not just have a bunch of independent companies/detachments. Which I guess is fine, just not what I was thinking when they say 2nd ed was a huge influence. Looks like the only stuff coming from 2nd ed is the orders tokens (happy) and no blast markers (sad).

I think in most versions of Epic you got "Dreadnaught" one version, no options. Here it looks like you have multiple versions of dreadnaughts so thats pretty nice. Does make we wonder how granular they got with the rules. The nice thing about 2nd ed was it was pretty rules light, you basically got one version of a vehicle, it kept the games quick so you could have these huge armies. These look more like epic 4Ok or Armageddon armies which tended to have more options but the armies were smaller.

I guess we will just have to wait and see, but hopefully not too long.

 Breotan wrote:
People in this thread are suggesting some seriously low prices for this.

I set my expectations based on similar sized releases that GW has done previously; the Aeronautica boxed sets. Using that as a guide, this box set should be priced at £60/$100.

The wildcard is how much of that price was due to the Aeronautica bases. In theory these thinner bases could shave a bit off the price.

That's because a significant factor in GW product pricing is the expected future sales*. A mid-sized model kit might cost them something like (for example) £20,000 to develop and produce, but the actual raw plastic material costs almost nothing. Literally pennies per kit. If during the lifetime of a mold it sells 5,000 units it will be substantially less profitable than another kit of the same size selling 30,000 units.

The situations for Epic & AI are quite different. AI is much like Necromunda and other skirmish games, where a customer grabs 1-2 boxes of models and has everything they need to play that game. There's little reason for anyone to pick up 4+ boxes of Goliath gangers unless they're doing some very niche conversions for a 40k army. GW expected to sell fairly low volumes of skirmish models like Aeronautica, so they sell them at a premium.

Epic is a very different scenario. Firstly you have the 'heresy effect' where all players can potentially buy most of the same models. Starting out my collection with space marines doesn't lock me out of using solar auxillia or mechanicum kits at the same time. That massively increases the potential that GW will sell more copies of each kit, and that the investment in that kit becomes more profitable.
Epic is also pretty open-ended in terms of sales. Players need much more than 1-2 boxes of models to complete an army, so there's an incentive for GW (slightly) reduce the cost of entry. They did that with 28mm HH by changing the existing core troops from a £30 box of ten to a £50 box of twenty. This Epic fire support box seems to be a similar idea of selling in 'bulk'.

Thank you for attending my Plastic Space Man Economics ted talk.

*There's been plenty of examples of this in action, with the most clearly obvious being the 28mm Rhino variants.Not long ago the classic space marine rhino was selling for £30. The Sisters Rhino with shared sprues and the same overall amount of plastic released at £35, partly because it's a newer kit and partly because they will definitely expect to sell fewer Sisters rhinos that space marine ones.
However when the HH deimos rhino showed up last year, it bucked the trend and released at £28. That's partly because between the 'heresy effect' above, plus the kit having shared sprues with other HH vehicles.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we’ll see Drop Pods done the old way?

Take your Drop Pod Counters you nominated to arrive that turn. Put them on a blaster marker.

Hold Blast marker 30cm above the board. Tip it.

Where the tokens land, the Drop Pods land…

That's the only proper way to do it, in my mind.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2023/07/sorry-gw-legions-imperialis-is-a-hard-pass-for-us.html

Spikey bits brings up some good points.

If stating the bleeding obvious in a hastily written, even more hastily proofread few paragraphs is 'make some good points' then, yeah, I suppose. Every time I click on a link to that place I'm disappointed. In them, and myself.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Wonder if we’ll see Drop Pods done the old way?

Take your Drop Pod Counters you nominated to arrive that turn. Put them on a blaster marker.

Hold Blast marker 30cm above the board. Tip it.

Where the tokens land, the Drop Pods land…

That's the only proper way to do it, in my mind.

GW doesn't do fun stuff like that anymore, its going to be pick a point roll scatter place marker, all drop pods have to be within X cm of the marker. Its just like the titan aiming template, must replace it with something boring. Dropping the drop pod markers was such a thrilling mechanic "YES...none of them landed on each other or dangerous terrain, except for the one that landed on and killed the Skullsmasha!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2023/07/sorry-gw-legions-imperialis-is-a-hard-pass-for-us.html

Spikey bits brings up some good points.

If stating the bleeding obvious in a hastily written, even more hastily proofread few paragraphs is 'make some good points' then, yeah, I suppose. Every time I click on a link to that place I'm disappointed. In them, and myself.

Well I thought it brought up some good points about why AT might not be getting played at the levels some people expected.

 Andrew1975 wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2023/07/sorry-gw-legions-imperialis-is-a-hard-pass-for-us.html

Spikey bits brings up some good points.

If stating the bleeding obvious in a hastily written, even more hastily proofread few paragraphs is 'make some good points' then, yeah, I suppose. Every time I click on a link to that place I'm disappointed. In them, and myself.

Well I thought it brought up some good points about why AT might not be getting played at the levels some people expected.

To tl;dr the entire "post":

- I don't like paying for rules
- I didn't get many games
- It's not for everyone

Saves some people getting cookie herpes.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
The new models look great and I'd say getting that kind of detail from a 3d printer would be difficult, not so much from a printing stand point, but finding someone do design the sculpts as nice and detailed at that scale. A lot of (but not all) the Epic scale STLs you can find on line are about as detailed as the old second edition stuff. There are some really well detailed vehicle STLs, but Im not sure I've seen dreadnoughts that detailed. Plus small fiddely bits like dreadnought arms can be a pain to remove from supports. So it could certainly be worth buying these instead of printing them depending on the price.

I've got not-Contemptors that I'd rate as equal to those, and with a few minutes of extra effort I put Chapter markings on my not-Contemptors before printing them. Not sure if there's good Epic scale Leviathans and Deredeos though.

I reckon the Galactic Crusader models match up pretty well with the new plastics.

Most of the vehicles I have are similar level of detail, but the GW plastics have rivet detail which adds an extra level.... that said, many of my tanks I manually added a bunch of rivets myself before printing them. The tracks on most of my 3D prints are actually more detailed than the GW models, but printing/voxel lines are hard to avoid on tanks where there's lots of flat surfaces that have different alignments.

I think so much of the success of this game, at least amongst people who post on forums, FB groups and know where to get 3d printed minis and proxies, rests on the RRP.

The problem is, if my initial reaction is "oh piss off" to the price, then I'll just continue to get stuff from elsewhere. And the problem is then, that if enough people do that (and if the most commited fans are scared off, then casual fans will be even more so) then the game will not be a commercial success. And that will be on GW.

Dudeface wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:

MarkNorfolk wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
https://spikeybits.com/2023/07/sorry-gw-legions-imperialis-is-a-hard-pass-for-us.html

Spikey bits brings up some good points.

If stating the bleeding obvious in a hastily written, even more hastily proofread few paragraphs is 'make some good points' then, yeah, I suppose. Every time I click on a link to that place I'm disappointed. In them, and myself.

Well I thought it brought up some good points about why AT might not be getting played at the levels some people expected.

To tl;dr the entire "post":

- I don't like paying for rules
- I didn't get many games
- It's not for everyone

Saves some people getting cookie herpes.

Doesn't get many games, they guy literally said he went in hard on AT and HH only to become frustrated by GW policy. I feel they did a passing (not great) job with HH, which some people would believe is quite generous, AT though I have to completely agree with him. AT botched the started sets, they all came with strange loadouts and the price was eye watering. Should have been one of each titan some knights and some terrain at a reasonable release price to get the game rolling. Who wants a AT starter box without a warlord? Who wants two warlords with little support?

Its not that people don't like paying for rules. They don't like to pay for a trickle of rules that come out multiple times a quarter, adding cost and confusion to what the rules actually are. It one of the reasons I'm looking forward to 10th edition where supposedly the rules will be democratized and easily available (not holding breath on that) Who could keep up with all the rules for 9th just for their own army/armies much less everyone elses. "Oh well this rule and this stratagem came out last week in the special $200 siege of fuctavious box that had nothing to do with your faction, but you still should know about it!" WTFGW!

Many people are willing to follow that strategy with 40K because they are already invested in it, its a terrible tactic in the first place and a death note for a new game. Make all rules available to everyone through a free app
like other companies or at least because its GW make the app affordable. This huge pay wall for an incomplete rule set is ridiculous.

If LI gets the same treatment as AT and AI, its going to do about as well, which will not bring it up to 3rd game status which Epic deserves to be and it will die out as quickly as all the other versions of Epic since 2nd.