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Definitely agree the more standard paint job looks better - isn't that pretty similar to the old 40k paint scheme for Leman Russ tanks? Sure I have seen a box in that style

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh don’t worry about Johnny Come Latelys.

Hang around Dakka enough post launch, and I’m sure likes of Pacific and I will provide all the Percussion of Simians about Epic you’ll need

Yes I am sure the same five of us or so will be here long after everyone else has lost interest, and buying all those Leman Russ 2nd hand

 Pacific wrote:
Definitely agree the more standard paint job looks better - isn't that pretty similar to the old 40k paint scheme for Leman Russ tanks? Sure I have seen a box in that style

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh don’t worry about Johnny Come Latelys.

Hang around Dakka enough post launch, and I’m sure likes of Pacific and I will provide all the Percussion of Simians about Epic you’ll need

Yes I am sure the same five of us or so will be here long after everyone else has lost interest, and buying all those Leman Russ 2nd hand

Not sure if im a newcomer...dont post much on Dakka but I was playing since Epic came out back in (I cant even remember)...1992 wast it? My favorite version was 'Space Marine'. Still got 3 armies.

Cant wait for LI to come out.

 Pacific wrote:
Definitely agree the more standard paint job looks better - isn't that pretty similar to the old 40k paint scheme for Leman Russ tanks? Sure I have seen a box in that style

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh don’t worry about Johnny Come Latelys.

Hang around Dakka enough post launch, and I’m sure likes of Pacific and I will provide all the Percussion of Simians about Epic you’ll need

Yes I am sure the same five of us or so will be here long after everyone else has lost interest, and buying all those Leman Russ 2nd hand

I mean... you're not wrong xDDDD

Honestly I'm getting feelings of way back when I first started wargames with Titan Legions seeing those little tanks!

And looking way way cooler than they did back then too!


This time -- THIS TIME - I hope it lasts better. At least GW these days doesn't consign Specialist games to mail order only from an expensive subdivision of the company; and I hope the game doesn't get killed off within 6 months of going live.

My one annoyance is the lack of Xenos and the 30K timeline which means any chance of Xenos is hobbled by GW having to re-tool and re-do all (most) of the core units to re-release the game.

I feel like this is the game that would possibly be best suited to expanding HH to include Great Crusade era and some of the other xenos and weird post-human empires found in that part of galactic history.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I feel like this is the game that would possibly be best suited to expanding HH to include Great Crusade era and some of the other xenos and weird post-human empires found in that part of galactic history.

See that would be really cool to see, but considering GW didn't even get to adding any Chaos models in AT I'm cautious about how far they'll take it. There's a lot they can milk with just HH

Yeah, it might take a long time for them to get there, but also the pace of releases for LI seems kinda fast - we already have a good amount of the flyer units available, and probably about half of the titans slated for the game (Im figuring they release more new titans going forward). In terms of the new LI stuff, they've basically previewed a significant portion of the existing Astartes and Solar Auxilia armories, theres maybe 2-3 more waves worth of stuff they can release before they need to start inventing things or expanding out into other factions? Unless they pull an Aeronautica and sunset the game after 4 or 5 years I think they may run out of content unless they take things in some interesting directions.

They already have flyers for Orks and Aeldari which are appropriate GC era opponents and a nice springboard for that direction before you get into Megarachnids or Interrex or whatever.

Tried drawing up a quick list of stuff not announced for LI that are out already for 30k proper, not including snowflake infantry or characters. Many mistakes?

I really hope this doesn't get benched early, haven't bought "normal size" marine stuff in years, but always loved my epic.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly I'm getting feelings of way back when I first started wargames with Titan Legions seeing those little tanks!

And looking way way cooler than they did back then too!


This time -- THIS TIME - I hope it lasts better. At least GW these days doesn't consign Specialist games to mail order only from an expensive subdivision of the company; and I hope the game doesn't get killed off within 6 months of going live.

My one annoyance is the lack of Xenos and the 30K timeline which means any chance of Xenos is hobbled by GW having to re-tool and re-do all (most) of the core units to re-release the game.

In terms of lasting long, remember Epic was a main store game from probably the early 90s through to the late 90s with third edition - I know it did then get consigned to mail order, but that is not a bad run!

 ingtaer wrote:
Tried drawing up a quick list of stuff not announced for LI that are out already for 30k proper, not including snowflake infantry or characters.

From that list the Venator, Vindicator, Scorpius, Cerberus/Typhon have been done in plastic, so they seem highly likely to show up in the coming months. I reckon they'll squeeze in the Glaive/Falchion soon so that marines have a super-heavy option.

The Sokar is also new enough to be CAD-based, and given how popular the Thunderhawk was that seems like a no-brainer probably later on.

 Overread wrote:
...

My one annoyance is the lack of Xenos and the 30K timeline which means any chance of Xenos is hobbled by GW having to re-tool and re-do all (most) of the core units to re-release the game.

This is my main worry, too.
Nowadays, the group of 25+ gaming buddies hanging out on Sundays at the LGS doesn't exist, but there are still 4 of us who war-game at least once a month; and the lack of Xenos will directly affect what we purchase for LI. As it stands, I can't see any of us buying anything other than the rulebook while we wait for Chaos, Eldar, etc.

As soon as GW released Titanicus, the plan was probably already set for Epic to happen. Aeronautica sealed the deal. Despite Aeronautica having a bumpy launch, Epic still found room in the borked release schedule to happen.

The big question isn't whether or not GW will support it, it's HOW they will support it. Games like Necromunda and Blood Bowl have been supported for a long time, getting a slow drip-feed of releases over a much longer period of time, which is good! Better to get a little bit of something and push the story along than abandon it completely.

It all comes down to how well Epic and its initial expansions do, especially with how screwed the hype cycle and delays have been. If it still does well, I'm sure GW will continue to support it. Worst case scenario, we'll get a lot of models in plastic and resin, and then the rest will be handled by 3d modelers

My biggest question to myself is how much money and I willing to invest in this so that when the release drops I can quickly decide if I’ll buy into it. A lot of recent releases I spend sufficient time pondering the investment that it sells out before making a decision.

Even if I decide to not go with LI, which is how I’m leaning now, I’ll still probably grab some tanks and infantry to check scale against what I’m 3D printing for my homebrew Epic games.

If it's just a question of grabbing a few tanks / infantry for the pleasure of building / painting, I think you are fine waiting even months after the initial release date. AI planes were available to buy for a couple of years before they stopped production of everything not linked to LI only recently (and even so, it's still possible to find a few boxes here and there left in some stores nowadays). LI will at least last the same.

FOMO only applies to limited bundle box releases or when production officially stops.

Honestly, even if the game doesn't interest you, I can totally see people taking a couple of boxes of some models they really like just for the pleasure of building and painting it. Taken separately without the "need" of building a whole army of hundred of vehicles / infantry bases, the purchase alone is worth it for collection...and it's easy to put on your shelves or as decoration on your furniture too.

drbored wrote:
As soon as GW released Titanicus, the plan was probably already set for Epic to happen. Aeronautica sealed the deal. Despite Aeronautica having a bumpy launch, Epic still found room in the borked release schedule to happen.

The big question isn't whether or not GW will support it, it's HOW they will support it. Games like Necromunda and Blood Bowl have been supported for a long time, getting a slow drip-feed of releases over a much longer period of time, which is good! Better to get a little bit of something and push the story along than abandon it completely.

It all comes down to how well Epic and its initial expansions do, especially with how screwed the hype cycle and delays have been. If it still does well, I'm sure GW will continue to support it. Worst case scenario, we'll get a lot of models in plastic and resin, and then the rest will be handled by 3d modelers

I agree and think this will be the case. What will make it a success or not? I think Epic, as a concept, has legs - we know that from the large successes (commercially) of the game at least over the long 2nd edition and Titan Legions period. And that could be why the new game is ostensibly based on the 2nd edition game.

I think the deciders for me will be two things: Firstly, price. This game *has* to be a cheaper way, than AoD, to have a mass of infantry and tanks on the tabletop - that was one of the strengths of Epic originally and why the game became ubiquitous for a certain generation of us getting into the hobby (I think it's also partly why Necromunda and BB continue to thrive as they have a lower buy in cost than most GW games). Secondly, the quality of the rules. Again it *has* to be fun to play and easy to pick-up, easy for one hobbyist to show another how to play. Again this was the strength of old Epic, I have shown people how to play in 15 minutes and we're having a laugh when a belly-gun shot blows a titan's leg off 10 minutes later. Blood Bowl too, it's a wonderfully designed ruleset - I will say Necromunda too, at its core and without burying the player in expansion books. If the new Epic is a turgid, drudging experience then people won't want to play it, it's as simple as that I think.

Hopefully we will find out both things, very, very soon!

 Pacific wrote:
snippo

Remind me, Pacific, what version of Epic do you play? Is it one of the community sets? I've been mostly getting back into Epic 40k (1997 version), but might try something else.

Sarouan wrote:
If it's just a question of grabbing a few tanks / infantry for the pleasure of building / painting, I think you are fine waiting even months after the initial release date. AI planes were available to buy for a couple of years before they stopped production of everything not linked to LI only recently (and even so, it's still possible to find a few boxes here and there left in some stores nowadays). LI will at least last the same.

True, except I was mid-army when LI was announced and stopped building the army with the though to check if I should tweak the scale to match LI. So I would like to get back to it over the Chrissie break.

FOMO only applies to limited bundle box releases or when production officially stops.

My memory is terrible, have they told us whether the launch box will be permanent or a one off?

Honestly, even if the game doesn't interest you, I can totally see people taking a couple of boxes of some models they really like just for the pleasure of building and painting it. Taken separately without the "need" of building a whole army of hundred of vehicles / infantry bases, the purchase alone is worth it for collection...and it's easy to put on your shelves or as decoration on your furniture too.

Yeah, at the very least I'll get a few to go along with my AI collection. Might be cool to have some ground vehicles to use as bombing targets or anti-air.

Hopefully we can get a nice selection of "samples" of models for a couple of hundred, though I'm expecting a full LI army to be on par price-wise to 40k and Warhammer.

Still a bit annoyed the starter set comes with Warhounds, I really don't need any more of them but the starter set will be more expensive because of them.

Launch Box is a permanent product, ala the Horus Heresy one.

 Pacific wrote:

Firstly, price. This game *has* to be a cheaper way, than AoD, to have a mass of infantry and tanks on the tabletop - that was one of the strengths of Epic originally and why the game became ubiquitous for a certain generation of us getting into the hobby (I think it's also partly why Necromunda and BB continue to thrive as they have a lower buy in cost than most GW games).

Cheaper than AoD isn't difficult, you know. It's not so much a question of "price" than a question of "perspective".

If a player of AoD wants to "translate his army in Epic scale", there's no doubts that the equivalent of his army in AoD to 10mm scale in terms of "same numbers of miniatures" will be cheaper. It's not a question of "playable army" or not, which is often a misconception here when people argue of the price of the armies in the White Dwarf battle report.

It really depends on how it's presented by GW and by people making demos of the game. When you build a GW army, it's rarely buying everything to the most played format in one go unless you're a big tournament player with no problem with money. It's usually about building gradually the collection little by little, depending on your budget. Thus the perception of "price" varies greatly depending of the way you start your collection...and how you want to play the game, if at all.

Secondly, the quality of the rules. Again it *has* to be fun to play and easy to pick-up, easy for one hobbyist to show another how to play. Again this was the strength of old Epic, I have shown people how to play in 15 minutes and we're having a laugh when a belly-gun shot blows a titan's leg off 10 minutes later.

Heh. Quality of the rules doesn't matter, in reality. People can learn the game with videos or from their friends teaching them, they don't necessarily have to read the rules. Just the parts they care about at the moment, the rest is mostly talking with your game partner. You can have fun with any game, even the worst ones, just by having a blast with your friend who vulgarize / explain very well or is used to teach other people as a matter of fact.

The strength of old Epic was never about "quality of their rules", either. Especially when you talk about old versions that were...let's say written "differently" than nowaday's cannon for competitive play. I'm not even talking about fan community versions, that vary vastly depending on the commitment of their members with their own language. But since most people learn from their friends / videos in that case, it's not that important again.

You just see it that way because you think old Epic is best Epic, that's all.

The minis themselves should sell regardless, just the same as the AT/AI ones, I think.

 Albertorius wrote:
The minis themselves should sell regardless, just the same as the AT/AI ones, I think.

Pretty much.

People often obsess about "the game, the game, the game", but it's always good to remember GW sales don't involve just people playing the game. And of course, people really obsessing about the competitive aspect of the game are even more a minority on that matter. Most players simply don't care about if a rule is tightly written or how "good" it is in comparison to old versions : they just play as it is / they're told to.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Launch Box is a permanent product, ala the Horus Heresy one.

Did that come from warcom Twitter or something?

 xttz wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Launch Box is a permanent product, ala the Horus Heresy one.

Did that come from warcom Twitter or something?

Well, at least it's permanent until they decide to change it. So far, I admit I only saw vague statements from GW on that matter. We sure know it is a Launch Box.

Sarouan wrote:
Heh. Quality of the rules doesn't matter, in reality. People can learn the game with videos or from their friends teaching them, they don't necessarily have to read the rules. Just the parts they care about at the moment, the rest is mostly talking with your game partner. You can have fun with any game, even the worst ones, just by having a blast with your friend who vulgarize / explain very well or is used to teach other people as a matter of fact.

I disagree, my experience back when I started gaming 15-20 years ago was, yeah, someone would half read the rules, then we'd bumble our way through game after game until we got the hang of it.

Now, everyone being older and more time-poor, there's been several games that have stalled because they took too long to learn, the book was too much of an impenetrable tomb, or the games themselves took too long to play. I've got a few rulebooks on my shelf that only went as far as "casual glance to find out I can't be arsed".

Meanwhile, the games that can be played almost entirely using the quick reference sheets, those are the ones that get played, they draw people in more, and ultimately are what we end up buying models for.

As much as I liked Warhammer Fantasy, if it came out tomorrow being as complicated as it was back when I started, it wouldn't get picked up by us.

The strength of old Epic was never about "quality of their rules", either. Especially when you talk about old versions that were...let's say written "differently" than nowaday's cannon for competitive play. I'm not even talking about fan community versions, that vary vastly depending on the commitment of their members with their own language. But since most people learn from their friends / videos in that case, it's not that important again.

You just see it that way because you think old Epic is best Epic, that's all.

Epic 40k was a very easy game to pick up. I didn't touch it for around 20 years and picked up the rulebook again and within a couple of hours had read the entire rulebook.

There were definitely structural flaws in the game though, things where a rule could be read several different ways or flat out didn't cover scenarios that commonly came up. I think the rules writers knew what was in their head in terms of how the game should play, but weren't that great at writing it down so others could pick it up without issues.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarouan wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
The minis themselves should sell regardless, just the same as the AT/AI ones, I think.

Pretty much.

People often obsess about "the game, the game, the game", but it's always good to remember GW sales don't involve just people playing the game. And of course, people really obsessing about the competitive aspect of the game are even more a minority on that matter. Most players simply don't care about if a rule is tightly written or how "good" it is in comparison to old versions : they just play as it is / they're told to.

On the flip side, if AI had better rules, maybe people would still be buying models and it wouldn't have gotten canned.

AllSeeingSkink - I mostly play 2nd edition/Titan Legions/NetEpic, but also a bit of Armageddon too. I think both systems have their flavours and advantages/disadvantages. I'd love to give Epic 40k a go one day, as the people that play it do tend to swear by it!

"Quality of the Rules doesn't matter" ? I have never read a comment on Dakka that I disagree with more And what an insult to the games designers that spend a good portion of their lives designing games and trying to mould them into something people enjoy. I will say if you think this, you haven't played enough different games in order to recognise when something has been well designed, or it has not.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

On the flip side, if AI had better rules, maybe people would still be buying models and it wouldn't have gotten canned.

Fun fact : last version of AI rules were actually praised as great to pick up because of their simplicity, just like Epic 40k in its time. It wasn't a question of "quality" either.

Reason of why it wasn't that big of a sale is :
1) it was never translated in other languages, so sales for the game itself weren't that great in countries where english isn't mainly used
2) it was really poorly marketed by GW, including in stores
3) it was about planes in 40k. It's like making a naval battle game in Warhammer Battle's universe : it's cute and all, but it's already a niche in the niche. Yes, it's a free jab at poor old Man O' War (that was a great game too !).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:
I will say if you think this, you haven't played enough different games in order to recognise when something has been well designed, or it has not.

Let's see...Warhammer Battle (all versions), Warmachine / Horde (before MK3), Warhammer 40k (from 2nd to 9th), Necromunda (all versions), Blood Bowl (all versions), Mordheim, Epic (all versions except NetEpic), Battlefleet Gothic, Warmaster (2nd edition), Lord of the Ring, War of the Ring, Frostgrave, Saga, Rangers of Shadow Deep, Alkemy, Kings of War (since 2nd, the best one), Confrontation (all versions), Confrontation Rag'Narok (including the sadly discontinued prepainted version), AT-43 (damn you Rackham !! It was such a good game !!!), Anima Tactics (such a good game as well, I'm still missing it...)...And I think I forgot a lot of others in my long life of playing miniature games. Ah yes, there was Mighty Empires (yes it was a game in its own !!), Aeronautica Imperialis and poor old Man O'War. My bad.

Yes I totally didn't play enough of them to understand that, in the end, quality of rules doesn't matter for a game to be popular or being left in the dust to die a dog's death. Especially because defining "quality" in rules is completely a subjective matter that varies amongst players depending on their own experiences with games so far.

 Pacific wrote:
I'd love to give Epic 40k a go one day, as the people that play it do tend to swear by it!

I’ll bet. They probably say “what the bloody he’ll am I playing this for” 🤣🤣

Sarouan wrote:

Fun fact : last version of AI rules were actually praised as great to pick up because of their simplicity, just like Epic 40k in its time. It wasn't a question of "quality" either.

Praised by whom? I've seen like one or two people on Dakka say they enjoyed it and a lot of people saying they were interested until they saw it was a dumbed down version of the original / X-wing.

I'll agree Man o War was legitimately great, even by modern standards. I can say this because I first read it like 3 years ago

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
I'd love to give Epic 40k a go one day, as the people that play it do tend to swear by it!

I’ll bet. They probably say “what the bloody he’ll am I playing this for” 🤣🤣

Epic: Warhammer 40,000 gets a big thumbs up from me. But let's not start and edition war.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Launch Box is a permanent product, ala the Horus Heresy one.

Sauce? That was my assumption even though yall argued w me, but still wanna know for sure

 lord_blackfang wrote:

Sarouan wrote:

Fun fact : last version of AI rules were actually praised as great to pick up because of their simplicity, just like Epic 40k in its time. It wasn't a question of "quality" either.

Praised by whom? I've seen like one or two people on Dakka say they enjoyed it and a lot of people saying they were interested until they saw it was a dumbed down version of the original / X-wing.

I'll agree Man o War was legitimately great, even by modern standards. I can say this because I first read it like 3 years ago

Yeah I've never seen anyone say anything good about AI.

And agreed re: MOW. Recently came across the rules myself, very cleverly designed and mechanically interesting. I was blown away that GWs game designers could ever be so clever.