Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
OK, that sprue is pretty cool.

As ever, Sponsons look to be too faffy for Swapsies (at least to me), but again we’re seeing swappable turrets.

That may affect perceived value, as we’re not forced to choose between a fixed load out or fiddling around. Which in turns means if you start out thinking Weapon A is what you need, but experience shows perhaps Weapon B might work best, we don’t have to go buy a new box to set that right.

Use blu-tac, the parts are tiny enough to hold for sure.

As for perceived value, I'd perceive more value if there were simply 4 tanks in less parts to a sprue rather than 2 where I can swap turrets
Frankly I'm amazed it only comes with 2 of the 4 turret options, implying there's gonna be a second Sicaran sprue...

leopard wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Yeah, I dont like the contents of the starter either. I also think that 30% limitation for titans etc is daft, I already imagined it'd present fun narrative mission prospects if you had to defend yourself against a force consisting of 100% Titans or flyers

That wouldn't go very far with zero ability to control objectives. All you need is other side survive in one objective for one turn and win. Best 100% titan force will get is draw and that requires getting rid of everything in every objective as they move in. Fail even once and you lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

leopard wrote:
really strange bit is that starter mission they have up for download apparently isn't in the box.

so you get a rulebook, unmatched forces and some "support" titans that according to the rules you cannot use

Heh. One thing that's standard in GW starter sets is illegal armies. Or total way off the point values.

They are never meant to be matched play ready go armies...

totally off point values yes, seldom Marines getting the short end though, but not usually stuff you, according to their rules, flat out cannot use - except when you get some starter scenarios in the box to get around the oddball contents - contents usually picked to demonstrate all aspects of the game (e.g. 40k sets with infantry, a vehicle, a bike or some sort, a walker etc)

Many starter sets you CANNOT use in matched play. Same as this.

Matched play rules != everything and starter sets don't follow matched play rules. You often need to play narrative like in LI to use starter set contents.

Starter set following matched play giving you legal army is actually rarity...Something always too much or too little.

40k 10th is one rare exception but of course that's because they dropped pretty much all restrictions...

And even THAT wasn't initially legal requiring codex release to actually be legal

quite, however while the various previous edition 40k sets were of dubious game legality (usually if you combat squadded the inevitable tactical squad into two five marine squads it worked though), and Warhammer wasn't exactly know for perfect armies either (though usally at least legal if not actually any good)

the point being you got a set of starter scenarios in the box that used the forces in the box to get you going

here you have a rulebook with army creation stuff, which if followed leave the two large centrepiece models sitting in the box

most will go for "matched play" as its usually the easiest option until you know the game balance well enough to start making your own scenarios up, removing the "getting started" missions into a downloadable PDF and not including them in the box seems penny pinching or shows someone didn't realise until quite late.

and so far short of the getting started type missions I can't think of a single GW game thats had to be "narrative" out of the box, AoS had starter scenarios, heck even Necromunda comes with them

I haven't really followed recent 40k and AoS releases. I seem to recall the boxed sets I've bought in the past were either a legal army or not far off one (if perhaps not the most optimised one).

But I think here the thing that stands out is just how far away it is from a legal force or a desirable force for that matter. For a game which is just loyalist versus traitor, it's odd and disappointing that you can't just build it into a big army like the AoD set, and can't even make 2 smaller legal armies, and it comes with models a lot of players will already have and can't legally take more of anyway.

I have to say when the contents of the boxed set escaped the fact it wasn't 100% marines was a surprise to me.

then easily splitable or able to combine, I suspect this box is designed to stop people buying too many to get just the bits they want

does mean eBay will be likely stuffed with sprues shortly though so there is that

also a slight surprise they haven't gone the way 2nd edition did, pick a company card, that can have support cards added and a "special" card. but nothing stopping you really having a marine company card with a guard company card other than they cannot "share" support slots

then it would have been very easy to have a marine company, two tactical detachments and support stuff, a guard one the same and then both bring a Titan

in an instant the whole box is perfectly usable as one force, and can also be reasonably easily split into two not quite equal parts.

that said there is nothing stopping someone taking a titan detachment organisation from AT and building a force around that really, and I think a fair few games early on will be like that as people have titans built & painted

Boxed set is there to get us started, with a little bit of different unit types to showcase the mechanics. And here, we also get some allies whichever side we pick overall.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Boxed set is there to get us started, with a little bit of different unit types to showcase the mechanics. And here, we also get some allies whichever side we pick overall.

it is what it is, suspect it is designed to try and deal with people thinking "sod it, I'll just get another starter" when they want a few more units

regardless I've got a copy on pre-order, with the potential for a second once I've gotten my paws on it

while I can print better looking infantry with no shadowing for the price its not too bad for the vehicles and titans, because a 5th & 6th Warhound will be nice to have, once the weapons get magnetised to go into the weapons pool they all share. Spare rulebook doesn't hurt, one for the shelf and one for the gaming bag (or one to cut the binding from and hole punch).

will have to make some better order tokens though

Oh, but I am going to come up with missions where objectives matter flock all, and a defender must defend some sort of point or a structure from being destroyed, and attacker has 90% - 100% of their force as Titans/Kinights or Flyers. Flock matched play, that's for pickup game people, not filthy garagehammerists like the people in our group.

If required, I can come up with some unit choice restrictions for the defender so that they cannot blow the entirety of their points into units which are hard counters to whatever it is that is attacking them

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Boxed set is there to get us started, with a little bit of different unit types to showcase the mechanics. And here, we also get some allies whichever side we pick overall.

Boxed sets, IMO, are mainly there to get people interested and sufficiently invested that they want to continue spending.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 tauist wrote:
Oh, but I am going to come up with missions where objectives matter flock all, and a defender must defend some sort of point or a structure from being destroyed, and attacker has 90% - 100% of their force as Titans/Kinights or Flyers. Flock matched play, that's for pickup game people, not filthy garagehammerists like the people in our group

Each to their own, I find it far easier to convince people to start a game if the rules are solid and make sense as written out of the box, then maybe on our 10th game we might start exploring house rules

Are the people I play with closed minded? Perhaps, but they are the people I play with...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 tauist wrote:
Oh, but I am going to come up with missions where objectives matter flock all, and a defender must defend some sort of point or a structure from being destroyed, and attacker has 90% - 100% of their force as Titans/Kinights or Flyers. Flock matched play, that's for pickup game people, not filthy garagehammerists like the people in our group

Each to their own, I find it far easier to convince people to start a game if the rules are solid and make sense as written out of the box, then maybe on our 10th game we might start exploring house rules

Are the people I play with closed minded? Perhaps, but they are the people I play with...

I dont intend to make that mission be any of our first games either.. but I am for sure going to do it when our model collections allow it. Sounds far too cinematic and thematic not to do it

Another one I feel we have to do is some sort of "last stand" mission, where everyone takes turns being a defender, and the only objective is to remain on the board for as many turns as possible..

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Boxed set is there to get us started, with a little bit of different unit types to showcase the mechanics. And here, we also get some allies whichever side we pick overall.

In fact you get twice as many Allies as you get your own dudes, no matter which side you pick, and in fact you get so many Allies you still can't field them all at 3000 pts

It's a innovative new cash grab, create an illusion of value by packing the box with stuff but make it so you have to replace most of it to have a legal force.

Of course you can also do swaps with other players, but I suspect the preference for Astartes / Solar split won't be even remotely split 50/50

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Boxed set is there to get us started, with a little bit of different unit types to showcase the mechanics. And here, we also get some allies whichever side we pick overall.

In fact you get twice as many Allies as you get your own dudes, no matter which side you pick, and in fact you get so many Allies you still can't field them all at 3000 pts

It's a innovative new cash grab, create an illusion of value by packing the box with stuff but make it so you have to replace most of it to have a legal force.

Of course you can also do swaps with other players, but I suspect the preference for Astartes / Solar split won't be even remotely split 50/50

My feelings are similar.. the box is a bunch of stuff that creates an illusion of value, but will actually just create incentive to buy more

I think I am leaning towards splitting a box of Adeptus Titanicus with a mate instead, and buying the infantry and tanks separately

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Boxed set is there to get us started, with a little bit of different unit types to showcase the mechanics. And here, we also get some allies whichever side we pick overall.

In fact you get twice as many Allies as you get your own dudes, no matter which side you pick, and in fact you get so many Allies you still can't field them all at 3000 pts

It's a innovative new cash grab, create an illusion of value by packing the box with stuff but make it so you have to replace most of it to have a legal force.

Of course you can also do swaps with other players, but I suspect the preference for Astartes / Solar split won't be even remotely split 50/50

I was gonna go Space Marines, but the Solar Auxilia are singing my Epic Song.

Baneblades, Artillery, Bamboo. Artillery, Baneblades, Bamboo. All backed up with hordes of little guys.

leopard wrote:
In some ways its quite clever of GW to create a starter box you will want one of, maybe want two of but see little value in three or more of

its the same as the Flames "Open Fire" box, a decent deal for the models within it, but not worth more than two as you wouldn't want more than two lots of the models

I don't see it, as my FLGS has the starter set for €6 less than 4 sets of infantry & tanks. You effectively get the warhounds & rulebook (plus gubbinz) for 'free'.

I'll likely only buy starter sets when I want to expand on infantry for both forces as its cheaper than even buying the sets at discount. I could bin the warhounds and still have saved money. Likely hood is that you could probably still get a €10 back for the warhounds from the AT players.

Granted, you do need to buy two starters to get a full set of any of the tanks. So if you want to expand that way, it might be better to buy full kits once they arrive separately.

I'll probably keep buying starters and only expand when I need to add more to both forces at once. I like really, really large games though.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Boxed set is there to get us started, with a little bit of different unit types to showcase the mechanics. And here, we also get some allies whichever side we pick overall.

In fact you get twice as many Allies as you get your own dudes, no matter which side you pick, and in fact you get so many Allies you still can't field them all at 3000 pts

It's a innovative new cash grab, create an illusion of value by packing the box with stuff but make it so you have to replace most of it to have a legal force.

Of course you can also do swaps with other players, but I suspect the preference for Astartes / Solar split won't be even remotely split 50/50

I was gonna go Space Marines, but the Solar Auxilia are singing my Epic Song.

Baneblades, Artillery, Bamboo. Artillery, Baneblades, Bamboo. All backed up with hordes of little guys.

If you want mega savings as an SA player, maybe wait a bit and watch the 2nd hand marketplace fill up with bargain bin prices for the SA half? Would be my recommendation.. if your patience can handle the wait, that is


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RexHavoc wrote:

leopard wrote:
In some ways its quite clever of GW to create a starter box you will want one of, maybe want two of but see little value in three or more of

its the same as the Flames "Open Fire" box, a decent deal for the models within it, but not worth more than two as you wouldn't want more than two lots of the models

I don't see it, as my FLGS has the starter set for €6 less than 4 sets of infantry & tanks. You effectively get the warhounds & rulebook (plus gubbinz) for 'free'.

I'll likely only buy starter sets when I want to expand on infantry for both forces as its cheaper than even buying the sets at discount. I could bin the warhounds and still have saved money. Likely hood is that you could probably still get a €10 back for the warhounds from the AT players.

Granted, you do need to buy two starters to get a full set of any of the tanks. So if you want to expand that way, it might be better to buy full kits once they arrive separately.

I'll probably keep buying starters and only expand when I need to add more to both forces at once. I like really, really large games though.

You are including the fact that the box only comes with 50% of all individual vehicle kits, into your calculations of value I hope? That to me was the kicker.. I dont want to buy several boxes, and one vehicle sprue per unit is suboptimal for most builds

Perhaps in future, depending on what tickles my fancy after a few “getting my head round it” games.

I still think it was an odd choice not to add Leman Russ, Malcadors, Predators and Sicaran to the initial release. They seem naturally complimentary.

Yea prospective Solar players will for sure have a much easier time collecting cheap starter halves.

I suspect that until they're released separately Leman Russ & Malcadors will have much higher demand on ebay than the infantry models. Far more players will be interested in armoured companies than infantry hordes.

However once they are available they'll be one of the better options at 300pts+ per box.

Sooo I saw someone post on one of the LI facebook groups a summary of detachments for Marines and interestingly, it contained info about predator detachment max size being 9, and sicaran 6. If that would be true, it would mean that getting a regular box of each combined with starter set would allow to make full detachment of those without any leftovers. Seems almost too good to be true, anybody can confirm that?

Kretualdo wrote:
Sooo I saw someone post on one of the LI facebook groups a summary of detachments for Marines and interestingly, it contained info about predator detachment max size being 9, and sicaran 6. If that would be true, it would mean that getting a regular box of each combined with starter set would allow to make full detachment of those without any leftovers. Seems almost too good to be true, anybody can confirm that?

Seems par for the course, GW does that a lot: one box is not enough for a full box, but two has leftovers. In this case the leftover is half a box, which is what you are getting of the armor options

I'm not getting the "this boxed set seems like it was cleverly designed to make it so you only want to buy one copy" arguments, honestly.

I'm looking at it and thinking that if I want to acquire any of the units contained in the box, its better for me to just buy more starter boxes and sell the stuff I don't want (which is currently nothing, so I'll be buying as many copies of this as I can afford and keeping it all to myself - with the exception of the extra rulebooks which I will dump online for a third of GWs price) than it is to go and buy the individual kits. The rulebook and warhound titans are basically free when looking at the value of the individual kits. UNless you're going for a very specailized army, chances are you want 2-4 sets of the contents of the box for your Marines or Auxilia list anyway.

 Albertorius wrote:

Kretualdo wrote:
Sooo I saw someone post on one of the LI facebook groups a summary of detachments for Marines and interestingly, it contained info about predator detachment max size being 9, and sicaran 6. If that would be true, it would mean that getting a regular box of each combined with starter set would allow to make full detachment of those without any leftovers. Seems almost too good to be true, anybody can confirm that?

Seems par for the course, GW does that a lot: one box is not enough for a full box, but two has leftovers. In this case the leftover is half a box, which is what you are getting of the armor options

I`m not sure if I understand correctly what you mean here.

Starter set has 3 preds, individual box will have 6, for a total of 9, which happens to be exactly a full detachment of preds, without leftovers. Same with sicarans, 2 in starter, 4 in individual box for a total of 6 in full legal detachment. All that is, if the info I got from facebook is correct regarding detachment sizes.

Which is a nice surprise, since for example with kratos you get 4 in a box, and full detachment is 6.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I'm not getting the "this boxed set seems like it was cleverly designed to make it so you only want to buy one copy" arguments, honestly.

I'm looking at it and thinking that if I want to acquire any of the units contained in the box, its better for me to just buy more starter boxes and sell the stuff I don't want (which is currently nothing, so I'll be buying as many copies of this as I can afford and keeping it all to myself - with the exception of the extra rulebooks which I will dump online for a third of GWs price) than it is to go and buy the individual kits. The rulebook and warhound titans are basically free when looking at the value of the individual kits. UNless you're going for a very specailized army, chances are you want 2-4 sets of the contents of the box for your Marines or Auxilia list anyway.

its not designed to get you to buy only one, I think its designed so one is ok, two is good but three or more starts to rapidly become less worthwhile. in effect its not the default way to get infantry and armour as its a bit too much of a mix

I think two copies is good, looking to get a second maybe but I want my hands on the contents first. for the rest extras are worthwhile if there are a few of you swapping stuff around, otherwise the actual boxes to just get the bits you want look better.

regardless, the equation varies between individuals as to what is and is not worth it

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Yea prospective Solar players will for sure have a much easier time collecting cheap starter halves.

Maybe, one thing the Solar has going for them.... it seems cheaper to build an army, lol, at least at this point. Maybe when the Land Raiders and whatnot come out it'll flip around.

Playing around with the points values, it seems the starter box gives...

660pts titans

442pts marines but it seems like maybe that can't be a legal army as you can't fill out enough compulsory choices to fill an armour company, but also can't take both the preds and sicaran as supports for an infantry detachment (unless I missed something?)

574pts of Solar Auxilia, but similar issue with maybe not being able to fill out enough compulsory choices?

And not much option for allies.

From there, filling out the choices...

Solar Auxilia: Buy a box of Baneblades, this bumps it to 774pts and is now a legal army. It's also enough points that you can take a Warhound ally, so can make an 1104pt army including the Warhound.

Space Marines, not as cheap. A box of Kratos bumps you to 702pts, still can't take a Warhound ally, a box of Rhinos gets you to 802pts (but is it a good 802pts? Doesn't feel like it) or a Thunderhawk gets you to 852pts, and now you can take a Warhound to get roughly 1200pts.

From there, maybe just paint that up and see what comes out next? Or get some aircraft? Or another box of Infantry to get a bit more flexibility?

 Albertorius wrote:

Kretualdo wrote:
Sooo I saw someone post on one of the LI facebook groups a summary of detachments for Marines and interestingly, it contained info about predator detachment max size being 9, and sicaran 6. If that would be true, it would mean that getting a regular box of each combined with starter set would allow to make full detachment of those without any leftovers. Seems almost too good to be true, anybody can confirm that?

Seems par for the course, GW does that a lot: one box is not enough for a full box, but two has leftovers. In this case the leftover is half a box, which is what you are getting of the armor options

The unit rules are implemented in multiples of the sprue quantity. That means while a regular box of that unit might have two copies of the sprue now, other sets might well have a very different number as we've seen in the starter set. Potentially they can do things like a marine armoured company battleforce with 1 Kratos sprue, or in future decide to rebox predators as 3 sprues for £40.

It's also entirely possible that when the rules were written and sent to print, they didn't know the final box quantities. Perhaps the original plan was to have 9 predators in a box.

So do we know how GW are approaching the rulebook?

This one doesn't have all the units, so are we expecting a new expensive rulebook down the line that will replace this one, or are we thinking we'll always need this giant tomb and additional rules will be added as supplements?

Standard GW approach, just not called Codex or Battletome etc.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Standard GW approach, just not called Codex or Battletome etc.

GW has a standard approach? I thought they did different things for different games these days (AI had campaign books that introduced new units, Blood Bowl does the Spike/Almanac thing, Kill team does their expansion book thing, Necromunda does the... err... buy a library of books and guess which one has the correct rules thing?).

But if it's going to be Codex/Battletome.... does that mean they're going to release one for Marines, one for Solar, one for Titans?

Rule book, Expansion book with new units and rules.

Here, it seems to be Campaign Books with new units for both. And I suspect the campaign will be conveniently themed to focus on those new units and their overall role in a battle.

Good news is this could also be used to expand into 40K. Just pick a historical scrap (Ullanor, Armageddon, Pariah Nexus, Fall of Iyanden) and boof, reason, excuse and opportunity to bring in Xenos and 40K Imperial stuffs.

 tauist wrote:


You are including the fact that the box only comes with 50% of all individual vehicle kits, into your calculations of value I hope? That to me was the kicker.. I dont want to buy several boxes, and one vehicle sprue per unit is suboptimal for most builds

Yes. I'm counting each side as 1 box each ie: 2 malcador &4 leman russ = one €36.50 set (as per my FLGS cost).

There is definitely some diminishing returns on starters if you are looking to get specific tanks or have a specific set up you want to play with. The starter will loose some favour with me once we have access to a leman russ separate release.