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I think they simply took what worked for their other boxes without considering if it would work for the more delicate LI sprues, in the same way they just took the 28mm poses scaled down for the SM instead of designing new poses that would work better as a single piece without those plastic stretch marks

Maybe originally the book included the contents of the Great slaughter expansion and thus the book filled more space in the box?

Maybe they at GW are just stupid and do not actually knwo what they do?

 Matrindur wrote:
I think they simply took what worked for their other boxes without considering if it would work for the more delicate LI sprues, in the same way they just took the 28mm poses scaled down for the SM instead of designing new poses that would work better as a single piece without those plastic stretch marks

Its very difficult to make 1 piece plastic injected infantry, there are going to be undercuts, and I don't think many people would want every infantry piece to be 3-4 parts at this scale (though the missile launcher is not too bad). Just look at any single piece injection molded infantry at any scale, its a problem inherent in the process.......considering the limitations I think they did an excellent job and an vast improvement over previous releases. You could maybe pose them different to avoid undercuts, but the poses would be noticeably odd. For example you could not do the standard two hands holding bolter across chest as that would cause undercuts. You could do the old, make the hands and bolters a second piece...but considering that some people are having problems with the 2 piece missile launcher, that would just be a needless complication. The gain in frankly unnecessary detail would not be worth the hassle.

This is actually where 3D printed infantry shine.....undercuts are not an issue with 3D printing. There are lots of very cool infantry and character STLS that look great for this game. You can already get just about every infantry option including specialists in STL form.

I applaud them getting more detailed, but its a balancing act, I just feel they went overboard on the vehicles. They easily could have made the Rhino 3 pieces, main hull, 2 sides, that would have been fine......ten pieces is overboard. A complete Predator is a minimum of 18 parts but a total piece count of 25! Its not difficult, but needlessly excessive.

RazorEdge wrote:
Maybe they at GW are just stupid and do not actually knwo what they do?

Profits tell they know more than people at dakkadakka. Otherwlse people from here would be even more successfull business.

easy to act stupid if you have a monopoly and people buying everything no matter what

most people having damaged frames are not even going to return the boxes or ask for replacement but just post online on how easy that can be fixed or that it does not matter on the gaming table
other companies are asked for a full refund of the whole box if 1 model inside is slightly damaged and the people will post on social media to avoid those because of bad quality

GW can be as stupid and lazy as they want, it won't affect sales at all

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Its very difficult to make 1 piece plastic injected infantry, there are going to be undercuts, and I don't think many people would want every infantry piece to be 3-4 parts at this scale (though the missile launcher is not too bad). Just look at any single piece injection molded infantry at any scale, its a problem inherent in the process.

yeah, that is why you design the models to fit the technology and don't use the same base model and pose for different scales

GW is not the only making small scale plastic models, but GW is the only one using 28mm multipart models as base and scaled them down

Even the the original Epic models, while looking worse in design, are of better quality simply because they were sculpted to work with those limitations.
Yes the limits the available poses and it will look less dynamic, but you can avoid impossible undercuts that look bad

this is not because of a limitation in technology but simply because GW did not make dedicated sculpts/poses for the smaller scale

 Andrew1975 wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:
I think they simply took what worked for their other boxes without considering if it would work for the more delicate LI sprues, in the same way they just took the 28mm poses scaled down for the SM instead of designing new poses that would work better as a single piece without those plastic stretch marks

Its very difficult to make 1 piece plastic injected infantry, there are going to be undercuts, and I don't think many people would want every infantry piece to be 3-4 parts at this scale (though the missile launcher is not too bad). Just look at any single piece injection molded infantry at any scale, its a problem inherent in the process.......considering the limitations I think they did an excellent job and an vast improvement over previous releases. You could maybe pose them different to avoid undercuts, but the poses would be noticeably odd. For example you could not do the standard two hands holding bolter across chest as that would cause undercuts. You could do the old, make the hands and bolters a second piece...but considering that some people are having problems with the 2 piece missile launcher, that would just be a needless complication. The gain in frankly unnecessary detail would not be worth the hassle.

This is actually where 3D printed infantry shine.....undercuts are not an issue with 3D printing. There are lots of very cool infantry and character STLS that look great for this game. You can already get just about every infantry option including specialists in STL form.

I applaud them getting more detailed, but its a balancing act, I just feel they went overboard on the vehicles. They easily could have made the Rhino 3 pieces, main hull, 2 sides, that would have been fine......ten pieces is overboard. A complete Predator is a minimum of 18 parts but a total piece count of 25! Its not difficult, but needlessly excessive.

You are right that undercuts will happen when the models are 1 piece but they can certainly be minimized if you design a fitting pose. And its also certainly possible to design such poses since not every pose on the current sprue suffers from clearly visible undercuts. And the Solar Auxilia are even better and basically have no problems at all so you can't tell me that wouldn't also be possible for the SM if they actually tried to find usable poses instead of just copying the 28mm poses.

But the discussion about better poses and undercuts has already been talked about enough I just brought it up again as an argument that it wouldn't surprise me if GW didn't put in enough thought into the packaging too.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't think we really know for sure but there's nothing to indicate the boxes were reprinted atm

My box was definitely repackaged rather than reprinted, because they use those stickers to seal the box instead of shrink wrapping them, I can see where the stickers had previously been before they were repackaged.

My box did arrive in good condition. I have no good standing with GW but the complain on this bord are crazy. In your oppinion GW cant do it right doesnt matter what they do.

oke if your missing parts it sucks, you can switch it for a new on but those are sold out again. For the broken stuff, i would say take a look on how those boxex are treated on the way to your adress. If the box is on a pallet al is good but single boxes have a lot to endure.

and it is on the manufacturer to pack them in a way that they still arrive in good conditions

and if the is a problem, the manufacturer has to sort that with the shipping company and you should not need to do anything but get a replacement

My job would be way easier if complains about damaged goods would be sorted out by "because the shipping company did not handle them with care"
like on industrial scale shipping you have companies that will return good if the colour of the metal drums is scratched without even opening them and asking for refund and replacement
than it is on us to get the money back from the shipping company (and hopefully the guy who packed it took pics from every angle to confirm the scratches were not there when it left)

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't think we really know for sure but there's nothing to indicate the boxes were reprinted atm

My box was definitely repackaged rather than reprinted, because they use those stickers to seal the box instead of shrink wrapping them, I can see where the stickers had previously been before they were repackaged.

GW have been moving away from shrink wrap this year. Certainly I first noticed it on some Horus Heresy plastics I bought.

 skeleton wrote:
My box did arrive in good condition. I have no good standing with GW but the complain on this bord are crazy. In your oppinion GW cant do it right doesnt matter what they do.

They could have just packaged it properly?

GW doesn't really get a pass on something as simple as this, especially given their years of experience and the premium price.

 kodos wrote:
and it is on the manufacturer to pack them in a way that they still arrive in good conditions

and if the is a problem, the manufacturer has to sort that with the shipping company and you should not need to do anything but get a replacement

My job would be way easier if complains about damaged goods would be sorted out by "because the shipping company did not handle them with care"
like on industrial scale shipping you have companies that will return good if the colour of the metal drums is scratched without even opening them and asking for refund and replacement
than it is on us to get the money back from the shipping company (and hopefully the guy who packed it took pics from every angle to confirm the scratches were not there when it left)

Ah yes. Everybody but gw is perfect. News of other companies having to provide replacements just lies. Nobody but gw need to replace.

Or not..,

If you have broken piece get replacement. Unless you bought from unofficial "trader" you will get it. Can even end up partial sprue along with your replacement sprue.

you still need to work on you reading comprehension

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I don't think we really know for sure but there's nothing to indicate the boxes were reprinted atm

My box was definitely repackaged rather than reprinted, because they use those stickers to seal the box instead of shrink wrapping them, I can see where the stickers had previously been before they were repackaged.

GW have been moving away from shrink wrap this year. Certainly I first noticed it on some Horus Heresy plastics I bought.

I got shrinkwrap on a Legions-branded Thunderhawk box I got about a week ago from my FLGS. Maybe they're not consistently using it but I'm pretty sure they're not completely shrinkwrap-free.

 kodos wrote:
you still need to work on you reading comprehension

Whv then you are only complaining about gw? Double standard that. You complain about gw expeating them to hold higher standard than others.

Unless you raise same complain level for others it just shows you bias and agenda against gw. You complain about gw for sake of complaining regardless of what they do.

I did not complain about GW needing to be better than others

I complain about people having double standards and searching for excuses to GWs mistakes

if the item was damaged during shipping because the box content was not packed accordingly, this is not the fault of the shipping company or the people who packed to boxes but GW who put the stuff inside the box

they don't need to be better than others, they just need to do what everyone else is doing
and people need to stopp getting them away with being lazy and cheap because it was not poors GW fault that the shipping company shaked the box too much

and if you now say this is double standard because GW can do nothing about it and everyone else also has this problem, than please show me all the damaged models from AoS, 40k, Necromunda or HH boxes.
Like any other game from GW that came with a book did not have that problem, so it cannot be something generic were we are having double standards on GW
this is something very specific to what GW has done with LI
and if that only happened because GW speed up the process to get the game out before christmas, it is still their fault and not the shipping company stacking the boxes wrong

 kodos wrote:
easy to act stupid if you have a monopoly and people buying everything no matter what

most people having damaged frames are not even going to return the boxes or ask for replacement but just post online on how easy that can be fixed or that it does not matter on the gaming table
other companies are asked for a full refund of the whole box if 1 model inside is slightly damaged and the people will post on social media to avoid those because of bad quality

GW can be as stupid and lazy as they want, it won't affect sales at all

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Its very difficult to make 1 piece plastic injected infantry, there are going to be undercuts, and I don't think many people would want every infantry piece to be 3-4 parts at this scale (though the missile launcher is not too bad). Just look at any single piece injection molded infantry at any scale, its a problem inherent in the process.

yeah, that is why you design the models to fit the technology and don't use the same base model and pose for different scales

GW is not the only making small scale plastic models, but GW is the only one using 28mm multipart models as base and scaled them down

Even the the original Epic models, while looking worse in design, are of better quality simply because they were sculpted to work with those limitations.
Yes the limits the available poses and it will look less dynamic, but you can avoid impossible undercuts that look bad

this is not because of a limitation in technology but simply because GW did not make dedicated sculpts/poses for the smaller scale

To each their own I guess, I feel the LI infantry are leaps and bounds better than any other Epic release GW has done. Not just on an individual basis but as a whole, when put on the base they look much better than the 5 guys in the exact same static pose we used to get. I don't even think its a competition, once put on the bases, painted and viewed without a magnified glass you can't really even see the issues. As a detachment with a bunch of stands together they look organic, the more of the old Epic bases you put together the worse they looked, a bunch of duplicate stands of clones in the exact same useless static poses. I feel infantry stands went from basic unit tokens to actual miniatures with LI. People looking for perfect infantry at this scale need to look at what else is out there. If its plastic one piece infantry, this is what happens, flames of war, everyone has the same issues and limitations, there is always going to be some angle where some detail looks off.

most of the hard plastic Flames stuff though is posed to minimise the issues, think the only real problem here is the poses match the 28mm multi-part models.

e.g. the bod with the large shadow behind the bolter, a simple repose of the gun to be closer to the chest plate would have, largely, negated it

having seen the models though ,and handled them, once painted its a near total non-issue except in very much up close images or viewed typically from below. about the only awkward bit is the models with helmet crests that fill in to the backpacks, short of separate head thats going to happen though

Former GW retail worker: the return policy is there to protect GW from bad-faith actors, as it is for any company with any return policy. Amazon does what they do because they're such a massive conglomerate that they can absorb the cost of bad-faith actors without much concern, and also because they do other shenanigans on the back-end to protect themselves when needed.

GW does not maintain an Amazon space to sell product. All GW product on Amazon is either from other trade accounts or people reselling GW stuff.

The system is simple: Return the product to the place you bought it from. Many stores do this, GW is not unique in this regard. If you bought it from Amazon, return it to Amazon. If you bought it from a Warhammer store, return it to the Warhammer store.

Guess which of those two will yield you better customer service? Yeah, the Warhammer store. Did it all the time. Works great.

In the case of something being damaged, the typical system is to contact customer service, get their go-ahead to return to a Warhammer store to exchange for other product or get a refund, and then proceed from there. If it's damaged but from another place, you return it to that place. If they wont accept it, then the seller is the one at fault, not GW. Any damage could have been caused by the seller mishandling the product. For regular trade accounts, GW has agreements in place for the seller to support GW product, and if they don't they risk punitive action, so if a regular game store isn't willing to go through the customer service process, you can report them to GW customer service. In any case, GW doesn't charge that trade account for damaged product, they protect them as long as they're following their contracts.

This is not rocket science, and demonizing GW because their return policy is identical to hundreds of other companies out there is ridiculous. In every case, GW will TRY to say yes to you, but every customer and situation is different. Remember, if you're going to Amazon, you're not only saving a buck (and forfeiting customer service support) but also you're choosing not to support the local game store where you're intending to actually play with those models (unless you're only playing at home). Pay where you play - support the local game stores and they'll support you. You want to compare which corporation is more 'evil' and 'penny pinching'? Take a half hour out of your life and look up the skeezy ways Amazon actually conducts their business. GW's not perfect, but Amazon is truly awful.

Now, the box set we already know was a gak-show. All of those boxes had to be opened and the books replaced. You can tell because of the double set of tape placed on the box if you look closely. But, if something was damaged, go through the normal channel to get refunds or replacements depending on where you got it. When in doubt, contact customer service, while keeping in mind that we're a week away from Christmas, so response times will be slower, shipping times will be slower, etc.

As for future releases, we can only hope that it'll be a healthy level of support going forward. Tough to say, but at the very least we gotta get into the new year before anything else happens. I for one am really looking forward to the Dire Wolf, it's such a neat titan concept.

GWs returns policy isn't the same as many others though

its considerably better from the users point of view, its also encouragement if you care about it to buy direct

 kodos wrote:
easy to act stupid if you have a monopoly and people buying everything no matter what

most people having damaged frames are not even going to return the boxes or ask for replacement but just post online on how easy that can be fixed or that it does not matter on the gaming table
other companies are asked for a full refund of the whole box if 1 model inside is slightly damaged and the people will post on social media to avoid those because of bad quality

GW can be as stupid and lazy as they want, it won't affect sales at all

 Andrew1975 wrote:
Its very difficult to make 1 piece plastic injected infantry, there are going to be undercuts, and I don't think many people would want every infantry piece to be 3-4 parts at this scale (though the missile launcher is not too bad). Just look at any single piece injection molded infantry at any scale, its a problem inherent in the process.

yeah, that is why you design the models to fit the technology and don't use the same base model and pose for different scales

GW is not the only making small scale plastic models, but GW is the only one using 28mm multipart models as base and scaled them down

Even the the original Epic models, while looking worse in design, are of better quality simply because they were sculpted to work with those limitations.
Yes the limits the available poses and it will look less dynamic, but you can avoid impossible undercuts that look bad

this is not because of a limitation in technology but simply because GW did not make dedicated sculpts/poses for the smaller scale

Almost certainly why Solar aux infantry has way fewer issues than space marine infantry

leopard wrote:
GWs returns policy isn't the same as many others though

its considerably better from the users point of view, its also encouragement if you care about it to buy direct

This is true! Many places straight up will not help you once the product is sold to you.

GW has a 'set in stone' policy but that's a fall-back to protect the retail workers from being taken advantage from, and you can ask a warhammer store employee to show it to you if you're real curious about the full conditions. In most cases, they'll try to bend a sentence here and there to try to help you out if you're supporting them with your business.

Some review and nice pics https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=143645.0

drbored wrote:

leopard wrote:
GWs returns policy isn't the same as many others though

its considerably better from the users point of view, its also encouragement if you care about it to buy direct

This is true! Many places straight up will not help you once the product is sold to you.

GW has a 'set in stone' policy but that's a fall-back to protect the retail workers from being taken advantage from, and you can ask a warhammer store employee to show it to you if you're real curious about the full conditions. In most cases, they'll try to bend a sentence here and there to try to help you out if you're supporting them with your business.

yup, have had quite a few places going on about "you have to return it within seven days" or "you didn't take the extended warranty!" basically hoping you will go away

GW seem to know being at the premium end of the price scale comes with expectations


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Some review and nice pics https://leadadventureforum.com/index.php?topic=143645.0

its good, they have missed the point of transports though. its not that marching infantry can go 15" and a rhino marching goes 18".. its that the rhino marching goes 18", then the infantry gets out and can still move, so you go 18", then the infantry get out, can go 5" and shoot or considerably further if they don't

that table looks really good

and the special rules sections would work a lot better if it was one section note "special rules" and "weapons special rules", just one alphabetical list

So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?

I got the main box + box of lightings. Swapped the marines for more SA.

I got a big bunch of infantry, 2 full tank squadrons, 8 Sentinels, 2 Titans, 6 planes, for 180 €.

Also, checked the 30k book and the SA units, so far what has been announced:

- Rapier batteries
- Tarantulas
- Armoured Artillery
- Dracosan
- Valdor & Malcador Infernus

Things we don't know anything about:
- LR Demolisher, Annihilator, Exterminator, the Volkite version...??
- Aurox & Carnodon ??

Right? the range for SA seems massive.

My little gaming group bought between us 14 boxed sets of LI plus multiple other titans, Rhinos etc.
Guess how many damaged components we had? Zero, nil, nada. One thing in common though we all ordered through local Warhammer stores. Strongly believe in supporting our local stores. I'm not saying we got preferential service, I am saying as somebody who's worked for a certain company named after a south American river that lots of products going through the warehouse I worked is dropped, thrown or kicked about and management don't care as it's all about deliver quick and undercut the competition as public are stupid and won't blame us.
I have never had a problem with GW customer service, any query/problem was dealt with quickly and with courtesy. If you try to save a few bucks using an unlicensed trader then don't blame gw for your mistake.

SU-152 wrote:
So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?

AFAIK, we discussed here that one of the first people that did a review/battle report (Angry Joe over at YT) said as much. And he's still saying it, after multiple games and liking the game quite a bit.

Do the Lightnings count as allies, or are they part of the main army (hoping it's the first)? How many points can you field with what you have?

SU-152 wrote:
So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?

I got the main box + box of lightings. Swapped the marines for more SA.

I got a big bunch of infantry, 2 full tank squadrons, 8 Sentinels, 2 Titans, 6 planes, for 180 €.

If you're trying to convince me that you got a great deal, sorry, nah, that still seems quite expensive to me You needed to find someone to trade with in order to maximise the value, and you got 12 tanks that are roughly half the size of an average 40k model, 8 sentinels that are a quarter the size of your average 40k model, 2 titans that if you had any interaction with AT you probably already owned (except with a new hat!), 6 planes that you'll probably only use 3 in a game, and 4 sprues worth of infantry.... 180€ doesn't sound like some massive bargain all considered

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

SU-152 wrote:
So, the trolls that kept saying LI was insanely expensive are gone?

I got the main box + box of lightings. Swapped the marines for more SA.

I got a big bunch of infantry, 2 full tank squadrons, 8 Sentinels, 2 Titans, 6 planes, for 180 €.

If you're trying to convince me that you got a great deal, sorry, nah, that still seems quite expensive to me You needed to find someone to trade with in order to maximise the value, and you got 12 tanks that are roughly half the size of an average 40k model, 8 sentinels that are a quarter the size of your average 40k model, 2 titans that if you had any interaction with AT you probably already owned (except with a new hat!), 6 planes that you'll probably only use 3 in a game, and 4 sprues worth of infantry.... 180€ doesn't sound like some massive bargain all considered

Value is relative... I'm printing 16 LRs at the moment (with sponsons, because I like sponsons in my LRs), and the slicer says it will be about 100ml of resin.