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Interesting thing for me about the news is the addition of some much-missed units to help flesh out the game; land speeders, jet bikes, drop pods, artillery for the Solars etc. Although I still couldn't find any mention of Land Raiders, which I find pretty remarkable.

The additional titan stuff leaves me cold, as the rules for them in the game are pretty lacking compared to both AT and previous versions of Epic, but I can absolutely understand why they would want to pull in AT players and their collections (or at least get them there are opponents of Legions collectors).

 Pacific wrote:
Interesting thing for me about the news is the addition of some much-missed units to help flesh out the game; land speeders, jet bikes, drop pods, artillery for the Solars etc. Although I still couldn't find any mention of Land Raiders, which I find pretty remarkable.

The additional titan stuff leaves me cold, as the rules for them in the game are pretty lacking compared to both AT and previous versions of Epic, but I can absolutely understand why they would want to pull in AT players and their collections (or at least get them there are opponents of Legions collectors).

That's something they should have done from the very start, TBH. A "new" game like this needs people to play with, and AT players already had armies.

drbored wrote:
Having seen an all-titan game versus space marines at 3k points, Titans are actually far squishier than people think. The titans were tabled by turn 2 in LI by the space marines.

So, it'll be interesting to see how the larger LI titan games will go. I imagine it much like chess, where big titans get removed turn by turn. It'll be a fun thing to do.

Some of y'all like "ugh this titan game is worse than the other titan game" and I'm over here like "Holy feck TWO TITAN GAMES"

Just curious if that game was aircraft-heavy. Its just that a warcom article had mentioned that each type of unit had a role to play, and that aircraft were effective against Titans.

 Tastyfish wrote:

Tavis75 wrote:
Not quite sure on the point of the "Titandeath" rules, sounds like it's designed for games purely of knights and titans, so basically Adeptus Titanicus but without all the in depth titan rules.

I was thinking along those lines as well, but AT points aren't that far off LI points for Titans, so 6K is going be something like 10-12+ engines per side with a few knights on top of that. So AT apocalypse rules I suppose.
Bit of a shame there's not more of a crossover between the two though - few formations that sneak another engine or two into them so you get closer to a 50% mix or so. Or even a full 70% Titan/Kight force with supporting tech guard/Legion support etc.

Agree on this.

Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).

Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.

SU-152 wrote:


Agree on this.

Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).

Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.

Easy, so they have more rules to sell in the next expansion. The next one will allow all Titan vs all SM/SA battles and the one after that will allow the 70/30 split with Titans as the 70%. And the one after that will come with Mechanicum which will completely overhaul the titan rules so you need to buy the book again

The new expansion is welcome news.

I'd bet that this first expansion is simply stuff they had to edit out of the main book due to size constraints. The core book is pretty thick...

 Matrindur wrote:

SU-152 wrote:


Agree on this.

Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).

Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.

Easy, so they have more rules to sell in the next expansion. The next one will allow all Titan vs all SM/SA battles and the one after that will allow the 70/30 split with Titans as the 70%. And the one after that will come with Mechanicum which will completely overhaul the titan rules so you need to buy the book again

the sad end result of people who whine about anything not direct from GW is "not allowed!"

have already suggested here, yet to try but regular oppo is up for it, bringing the maniple formations from AT into Legions as a "core" force, using Legions points, and sticking the "allies" bit as Auxilia, Marines etc to support them. have also considered going for 50% from one faction as base, not 70%, with the proviso that if thats marines, then 50% is one legion and any other legions come under the "allied" 50%

SU-152 wrote:

Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).

Do we want skew lists to ruin balance?

Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.

3 non-engine killer hits kill warhound just fine.

Also engine killer weapons tend to have low ROF. You struggle to get through shields binking one shield at the time.

given three predators are capable of bringing a warhound down in one round of shooting (6 shots and 6 potential wounds) I don't think the "god engines" are a terribly practical option, and the "titandeath" stuff is needed to stop then facing off against every Vanquisher ever printed in a single game

there are plenty of weapons able to bring shields down, largely because they are also the weapons you need to splat conventional armour

I can see aircraft being good as well, harder to hit back and generally decent rate of fire with decent anti-armour weapons

Warlords may have a better time of it but the time I have gone against a knight I wasn't that impressed, and the easy way to neutralise a warhound when facing that in a normal game was to ignore it, the thing didn't have enough fire output for its points compared to armour to ever be at the top of the list of things that had to die

 Pacific wrote:


The additional titan stuff leaves me cold, as the rules for them in the game are pretty lacking compared to both AT and previous versions of Epic, but I can absolutely understand why they would want to pull in AT players and their collections (or at least get them there are opponents of Legions collectors).

I agree about the Titans, but I've so far been impressed with the Knight rules and cautiously optimistic about how House armies will be represented in this new mode.

Thing with both knights and Titans, and some of the "super heavy" stuff like Baneblades is they need more wounds on the profile

Baneblade could do with at least three, to say its the same as the Malcador when its twice the size feels wrong

ditto knights and especially titans, you should be able to chip away at them, giving them a chance to pull back to safety, but to say both are presented as incredible machines requiring significant investment to produce, the fact they go down more easily than a tank squadron feels wrong

Cover is one of tanks spartan or land raider?

tneva82 wrote:

SU-152 wrote:

Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).

Do we want skew lists to ruin balance?

Also, in Titandeath games, what is the point of using non-Engine killer weapons? none.

3 non-engine killer hits kill warhound just fine.

Also engine killer weapons tend to have low ROF. You struggle to get through shields binking one shield at the time.

Which balance are you talking about? have you seen the points costs of the detachments? there is no balance to be skewed.

And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.

And 3 non-engine-killer hits won't kill a Warhound, as it has 2+ armour save.

leopard wrote:
Thing with both knights and Titans, and some of the "super heavy" stuff like Baneblades is they need more wounds on the profile

Baneblade could do with at least three, to say its the same as the Malcador when its twice the size feels wrong

ditto knights and especially titans, you should be able to chip away at them, giving them a chance to pull back to safety, but to say both are presented as incredible machines requiring significant investment to produce, the fact they go down more easily than a tank squadron feels wrong

Yeah 100% agreed. It feels so weird to have Baneblades with the same number of wounds as a Knight Armiger. If they can't have more wounds then these units should at least get a 1+ save.

SU-152 wrote:
And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.

Are you implying that an engine killer weapon will drop multiple void shields in one shot? If so you might want to read those rules again.

SU-152 wrote:
Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).

Did you just claim this is "lazy design" because they wrote a multiple page new supplement instead of swapping two numbers around?

SU-152 wrote:

And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.

And 3 non-engine-killer hits won't kill a Warhound, as it has 2+ armour save.

Engine Killer removes Wounds after a failed saving throw, Void Shields negate Hits before saves are made. You're better off with high ROF weapons to break shields.

I think Leopard was referring to the possibility that three Predators can bring a Warhound down in one salvo. Unlikely, but possible - which it will happen somewhere. I'm sure someone can provide a percentage.

oh its possible, not very likely though

3 shots on a 4+, call it one hit, 3 shots on a 4+ with a reroll, call it two hits - both shields down and then one save at -1 - 50/50 on doing a wound

can't be bothered to load the Monte-Carlo software with it.

however if then a second units fires its a bad day to be a warhound

given how shields work its either have several units able to fire, and fire them until the big boy goes bang, or don't bother at all

and thats just three, or maybe six predators, decent unit of Kratos and was fun knowing you

naturally the titan has a decent chance to extract its pound of armoured flesh first

personally, give the big boys more wounds and/or make the void shield not auto drop when an AP-1 weapon hits it, but give it a 2+ save.

points adjusted of course but it means the big sods need other big sods or a lot of smaller sods to deal with them

Engine Killer is interesting, makes things a lot less predictable as its not three saves from three wounds its one save, fail it and take three (as an example).

though quite why it needed a special rule and not just assign a damage rating to weapons is beyond me

 xttz wrote:

SU-152 wrote:
Seems like lazy design, again. Why not just swap the % with the regular game?? like core formations must be Knights/Titans and up to 30% of allies (SA, SM infantry, tanks...).

Did you just claim this is "lazy design" because they wrote a multiple page new supplement instead of swapping two numbers around?

Lazy resign and bloated rules are not mutually exclusive.

If they are following the Necromunda sales model they have an awful lot of books to fill, so crisp efficient writing is not actually a benefit for them.

wait for the signs they start to use AI to handle the writing for them

you know, fewer mistakes

SU-152 wrote:
[
Which balance are you talking about? have you seen the points costs of the detachments? there is no balance to be skewed.

Detachments don't have cost. Titans have.

And skew lists every time screw balance.

And engine killer is +X wounds, they drop shields even more efficiently than normal weapons.

Bwahahaha. You might want to read the rules again. You need to FAIL SAVE for engine killer. YOU DON'T ROLL A SAVE FOR A VOID SHIELD. Engine killer rule doesn't come into play. Volcano cannon drops 1 shield.

Which funny enough is how void shields have been described as working for decades. Doesn't matter how big hit it is. 1 hit is 1 shield. Volcano cannon isn't any better removing shield than lascannon. Hence why high rate of fire been essential to drop shields for decades.

Like here. Shoot volcano cannons 1/shield all you will. Meanwhile I shoot at you with warhound 2 vulcan mega bolter for 20 shots for 9 shield drops and then hit you with volcano cannons. Boom.

And 3 non-engine-killer hits won't kill a Warhound, as it has 2+ armour save.

Ah yes. Engine killer after all ignores all saves and there's no such thing as AP in the game.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I hope the epub releases the same time as the physical book, as has been the case so far for LI.

What do people use for epubs? Does everyone just have a tablet by default these days? Do you edit out all the waffle between the rules to make it easier to navigate?

A laptop doesn't really seem convenient for wargaming, and I imagine my ereader (old Kindle) won't be able to do anything with it.

I use the built in app called Books (iPad M1 256GB), but I hear Google Books is the app to use on Android. Several other apps do not display GW authored epubs correctly, which is hardly surprising if you take a peek inside one of them I swear they deliberately code their XHTML to be an absolute mess like that in order to make ripping stuff more difficult..

For me personally, a slate device which holds all rulebooks, codexes and army lists is mandatory for playing GW games. You need so many books, and there are so many erratas, it'd be a nightmare juggling all that with physical paper products. YMMV

Weird... The ruined buildings are now listed as forever sold out online: https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/legions-imperialis-civitas-imperialis-ruined-buildings-2023
I hope it's just an SKU change, would be very bad to have those already discontinued.

CorwinB wrote:
Weird... The ruined buildings are now listed as forever sold out online: https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/legions-imperialis-civitas-imperialis-ruined-buildings-2023
I hope it's just an SKU change, would be very bad to have those already discontinued.

they sent all available stock to the guy in NZ who makes massive things with them

CorwinB wrote:
Weird... The ruined buildings are now listed as forever sold out online: https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/legions-imperialis-civitas-imperialis-ruined-buildings-2023
I hope it's just an SKU change, would be very bad to have those already discontinued.

That's weird.

It's not even that expensive box so doesn't feel like discount box like the civitas is. But SKU change this early would also be odd.

Well previous store was bugging marking stock out as sold out randomly. Maybe that's same here. New store, same old bugs?

could also be that that box is due to be combined with another and released that way

leopard wrote:
could also be that that box is due to be combined with another and released that way

Possible.

I sure hope. I would like to get that for terrain but didn't get chance(for one local FLGS literally got 0...And by the time even store found out that it was sold out everywhere).

Was banking on it NOT be limited print.

the idea that the terrain would be "limited" seems bat-poo mad, its practically forcing people into third party alternatives

Maybe they dropped the mold

I think they're going to re-package it as a combo with intact civitas. As great a box as the ruins is, you actually get quite a bit in it, I built over 12 ruins from the single box, which for sure made me think it would have been more useful if half the sprues were intact civ and the other half ruin. As nice a set as the ruin box is, you also start to notice it's mostly the same side with 4 sets of windows ruined over and over and over with the small exception of a few sides with doors. Even with 12 ruins, I started to get a bit of a sameness to them.

As great/useful as the ruin box is/was, without, myself, having civitas parts on hand it just was a lot more limited in what could be made, so based on nothing other than a gut feeling, if ever we were going to see combo kit of 2 or more existing terrain boxes, ruined and intact civ I feel is the most likely.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Maybe they dropped the mold

I swear, the frequency with which I've heard that has made it a meme

SamusDrake wrote:

drbored wrote:
Having seen an all-titan game versus space marines at 3k points, Titans are actually far squishier than people think. The titans were tabled by turn 2 in LI by the space marines.

So, it'll be interesting to see how the larger LI titan games will go. I imagine it much like chess, where big titans get removed turn by turn. It'll be a fun thing to do.

Some of y'all like "ugh this titan game is worse than the other titan game" and I'm over here like "Holy feck TWO TITAN GAMES"

Just curious if that game was aircraft-heavy. Its just that a warcom article had mentioned that each type of unit had a role to play, and that aircraft were effective against Titans.

The space marines had 2 thunderhawks. So I wouldn't say it was 'aircraft heavy', but those turbo lasers really did hurt the titans quite a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CorwinB wrote:
Weird... The ruined buildings are now listed as forever sold out online: https://www.warhammer.com/en-GB/shop/legions-imperialis-civitas-imperialis-ruined-buildings-2023
I hope it's just an SKU change, would be very bad to have those already discontinued.

The previous big box set of civitas terrain read that as well, but then came back in stock.

The system is set to auto-flag things as 'sold out online' if stock levels get too low, then an operator has to manually uncheck the flag to switch it to 'temporarily out of stock' or restocks will unflag the product automatically.

It's no longer a symbol of things being replaced.