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 Overread wrote:
This actually fits the lore closer than a combined arms demon army because in theory that's how most of them manifest.

Nah, that's just something new GW introduced alongside the gameplay split, not something that caused it.

I've been a Daemons fan since their big overhaul into their modern form back in ~2007, and for the bulk of that time, mixed Daemons was the default with no justification needed. Most Daemon army book covers has mixed Daemons together. White Dwarf narrative battle reports are packed with mixed-Daemon invasions. Go back to old Warhammer Fantasy and you'll see the Keeper of Secrets N'kari be accompanied by Khorne Daemons when invading Ulthuan as a matter of course - why would they not when there are mortals to hunt? I can open my 9th edition Daemons codex right now and see that posterboy incursions plentifully feature mixed-god assaults with it not being presented as in any way unusual. Every Dawn of War game that has had Daemons has had them mixed together. I could go on and on. There's so much material here.

The focus on separation began as a distinctly Age of Sigmar thing, which was rooted in Age of Sigmar's particular setting. In AoS, Chaos is ascendant and has conquered the majority of the realms. Most of humanity lives under Chaos rule. And because Chaos is the dominant force in AoS, it has started infighting more, simply because there is more room for it to do so. But this is not the case in 40k, WHFB and 30k. The majority of the setting has not been conquered by Chaos. So, Chaos presents more of a united front.

I have seen others also believe that "oh, mixed Daemons is not lore accurate, it must go" and I really really chafe at that take. It's borderline revisionism from GW's side. GW isn't splitting up the Daemons to better follow the lore, GW is shifting the lore to set up the faction split, which I assume is done for the same reason they split everything these days - bookkeeping and finance. Nothing more glorious to it than that.

...And yes, I and my display case full of mixed Daemons are not best pleased.

 Overread wrote:
In both games you can take demons as allies in a Chaos Marines/Slaves to Darkness army.

Not any more. AoS has removed allies. S2D have to resort to either taking a regiment of renown (a fixed handful of units from a single god) or go Legion of the First Prince (which is a shadow of its former self, and frankly isn't deserving of its name).


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...Anyway, to direct this digression back to the topic of LI, I'd love to see Daemonic models feature, but I think it's highly unlikely. Mainline 30k hasn't seen anything Daemonic be released since 1.0 (unless you count the fairly abandoned Infernus Abomination, I suppose) so it seems an unfavoured child to say the least.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Overread wrote:
This actually fits the lore closer than a combined arms demon army because in theory that's how most of them manifest.

The focus on separation began as a distinctly Age of Sigmar thing, which was rooted in Age of Sigmar's particular setting. In AoS, Chaos is ascendant and has conquered the majority of the realms. Most of humanity lives under Chaos rule. And because Chaos is the dominant force in AoS, it has started infighting more, simply because there is more room for it to do so. But this is not the case in 40k, WHFB and 30k. The majority of the setting has not been conquered by Chaos. So, Chaos presents more of a united front.

[

To be fair, GW has flip-flopped on that issue several times. Back when (5th edition WHFB) Chaos army books came in a box of their own, the design guideline was something like "Chaos should be anything goes, here's your toolbox to make it happen", when they introduced the Demon-Mortal "horizontal" split and the god-specific "vertical" split as a major design constraint, complete with various gifts and boons that could bend or break the way it usually worked. Then, with 6th edition and the corresponding, much stricter army building rules, the "normal" way to compose things changed again, and then again with "Storm of Chaos" and Demon Legion army lists. Meanwhile, 40k was in full "We need to have variants (of Space Marines) back after the thorough cull the shift to 3rd edition brought, and started giving out variant army lists like candy, including attempts at specific Chaos Legions, and thus, god-specific, but "horizontally" integrated army lists including Legionnaires, Demons and LotD in some way. Of course, 40k would go on the get their own Black Crusade/Storm of Chaos lists, a Demon codex, and another shakeup...

Much of it was driven by gameplay needs: under "No Model, No rules", stuff like army books where 1/3rd of the entries needed to be converted could no longer fly, and the relatively small assortment of "classic" demons with models was not exactly conductive to interesting, or even legal, army composition, so both systems needed some sort of solution that, at the time, were dictated by real-world constraints rather than by solid, in-setting rules about how the world worked.

The big problem with Chaos? It’s all valid representations.

Forces with a single god dedication and a tight focus on a certain wing? Perfectly valid.

A real hodge podge of a bit of everything including god dedications? Perfectly valid.

And absolutely everything in between.

In the relatively modern day? IA:13 came closest to just how chaotic a Chaos force could be. Absolutely spoiled for choice in options and visions. And at least in 2nd Ed Heresy? The Cults and Militias list was the direct descendant of IA:13. I don’t think it was the exact same list. But it wasn’t far off.

I agree that is Chaos, and if you ask me it's not a problem. I think it's more of a problem to want to pigeonhole Chaos into being only four strictly thematically segregated and colour-coded groups. That isn't really "chaotic" to me.

For me, the least chaotic thing is that a daemon must fit neatly into one of the four immutable categories. I think LI/HH is a nice setting in which to play with this (to me) somewhat tired taxonomy, and have daemons that are less, well, defined. This also fits with how they are presented in the HH novels, where most manifestations do not seen to fit the stereotypes as tightly as in 40k stories. (Except that the four gods are of course quite distinct when they make an appearance.)

I love that too honestly. 30k even presents it nicely with undivided/Dark King Daemons, such as Samus - while Brutes could be argued to simply be of unknown alignment, Samus in particular is something entirely his own.

I wonder if we even will see Daemons in LI. I also guess Custodes are the next big new Faction for the Game, but im sure SPace Marines of the LA will stay the focus of the Game.

With the the possible Focus on Istvaan V we could maybe see Siege Rules with the next Journal and focus on the IW. - Breachers and more Infantry Weapon options could also Fit in such a release.

I expect they’ll be along at some point, possibly around the same time as Custodes and other Special Emperor Toys.

That way, Loyalist and Traitor get their own unique toys and presumably perks thereof, without one side gaining an advantage.

Will they be fully fledged forces in their own right? I bloody hope so. But I can see them potentially starting as Meant To Be Allies.

Y'know I don't think I've seen the Ruinstorm Brutes before.



https://www.warhammer.com/en-US/shop/Ruinstorm-Daemon-Brutes-2019?srsltid=AfmBOorR53RF6j0eQJxkXTXIyDwJWN-Xc196-uw1SZNwnKGr_0gp9QUL

They kind of look like stretched out, like they're extending into too many dimensions at once, a bit like the old Gumby style Bloodletters.

Of course they're 10 pieces of resin each, and FW prices, but not bad designs. I'd like to see a bit more technorganic stuff with them, like they were building their bodies out of whatever corpses and rubble were around.

I wouldn't mind seeing them as an unaligned daemon unit either.

Could see those Ruinstorm Brutes as "Terminator-like" Elite/Heavy Infantry, with smaller lesser Daemons as mass Infantry option.

With the New Improved Psychology Rules, Daemons could be quite nasty. And in a thematic way.

Also brings me to my favourite, seemingly now forgotten lore. And that’s Thallax being Really Good Against Daemons.

They aren’t impacted by the fear and sheer unnatural, as that’s excised when they’re installed in the Lorica. But, unlike Automata? They have the wherewithal to recognise Daemons as not simply being erroneous data.

Techno-organic demons is something I really hope the whole "split the model lines per game" policy results in. Armies like Slaanesh demons always felt odd in 40K because they were clearly all fantasy style warriors, chariots and so forth.

Daemons as a whole need expansion. But that’s a 40K topic for the 40K board. Will sort that in a bit.

 Overread wrote:
Techno-organic demons is something I really hope the whole "split the model lines per game" policy results in. Armies like Slaanesh demons always felt odd in 40K because they were clearly all fantasy style warriors, chariots and so forth.

Legion Imperialis also offers a design space that's seen less in 40k (and will probably be revisited once Demons get their next "major" turn in the codex cycle): larger Uber-Demons, Demon-Beasts and such. Like the flying Mammoth-Elk-Nightmare-Thins Corteswain faced in one of the later books, or other, suitably gribbly designs. Like the older games in Epic scale, LI would be an opportunity to try out some designs without committing the ressources for a major, 28mm-scale plastic kit initially. We have already seen that mode with the Dark Mechanicum spiderbots, so they recognize it as a valid approach, and i think the more chaotic side of Chaos would profit from that. At least do modernized takes on the "classic" demon engines that have not yet found a reincarnation.

Once we're past the inevitable Custodes releases, having some overlap between dark mechanicum & daemons would be a very cool direction to use for a purely traitor HH faction.

It stands to reason that the people creating the first daemon engines are among the first to learn how to summon them from the warp. GW could make a limited range of ruinstorm-style daemon models for use as supporting allies, or have them as part of a larger dark mechanicum faction that explores classic units like Brass Scorpions & Subjugator titans.

 xttz wrote:
Once we're past the inevitable Custodes releases, having some overlap between dark mechanicum & daemons would be a very cool direction to use for a purely traitor HH faction.

It stands to reason that the people creating the first daemon engines are among the first to learn how to summon them from the warp. GW could make a limited range of ruinstorm-style daemon models for use as supporting allies, or have them as part of a larger dark mechanicum faction that explores classic units like Brass Scorpions & Subjugator titans.

Funny enough, I was thinking the same, could work.

BTW on the Rulebook Topic and 1.5 Book rumours;

I brough the Ruin of the Salamanders Book - using mostly the same Layout than the other LI Stuff, the Book itself as a whole feels like from another Edition to me.

RazorEdge wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Once we're past the inevitable Custodes releases, having some overlap between dark mechanicum & daemons would be a very cool direction to use for a purely traitor HH faction.

It stands to reason that the people creating the first daemon engines are among the first to learn how to summon them from the warp. GW could make a limited range of ruinstorm-style daemon models for use as supporting allies, or have them as part of a larger dark mechanicum faction that explores classic units like Brass Scorpions & Subjugator titans.

Funny enough, I was thinking the same, could work.

BTW on the Rulebook Topic and 1.5 Book rumours;

I brough the Ruin of the Salamanders Book - using mostly the same Layout than the other LI Stuff, the Book itself as a whole feels like from another Edition to me.

The old rulebook is pretty outdated now, core rules are heavily FAQd, army lists and stat blocks are obsolete, would not be surprised if they had a draft of a new rulebook and were waiting for a window to do a new boxed set.

It’ll be interesting to see if it goes the Necromunda route, where rather than an outright new edition, we instead get periodic updated core rulebooks, incorporating all existing FAQ and Errata.

Of course, some might call that a new edition in itself, and I can’t be arsed to split that particular hair.

A smaller/lighter Rulebook would be great.

RazorEdge wrote:
A smaller/lighter Rulebook would be great.

Epic scale, so 1/4 the size of the 40K book right?

What if they go for a "3 modes of play" option

1) AI Combined Arms. Basically the current AI rules updated, polished and so forth.

2) Titan Battle. The AT rule system, polished and tidied up and such and put in the same book.

3) Open Play (you know that mode of play that does nothing but is in there cause some people don't like thinking outside the box unless the box tells them to do it)



The games already share the models (and its clear GW management doesn't want cross-game-model compatibility to be a thing) and it means cutting down on a whole release system by just merging the two. Everyone wins and heck maybe going from 2 to 1 means it can get on the front page for the webstore instead of hiding through a bunch of menus.

RazorEdge wrote:
A smaller/lighter Rulebook would be great.

The epubs weight like 0,00000001 grams bro. Still waiting for an updated version..

Agreed, an expanded version of AT18 incorporating LI models would be awesome.. Like it used to be during 1st edition of AT

It feels like a natural way to reduce SKU bloat; combine the games and cut down on having two marketed lines that heavily rely on each other. Plus it actually supports AT better since now its an encouragement mode for those who buy a lot or titans to get a game of their own without having to invest in another book.

I know splitting games up works great for GW's main line games with Killteam and so forth; but AT's prices are honestly very low to start with to get an army going. Plus it gets fewer releases and marketing so its not going to do well trying to split itself.

Combined really brings it together well.


The only reason I could see to keep AT separate was if GW were going to make models that can only be used in AT or advance AT to the 40K setting and add Xenos, but honestly I don't see them doing either option.

From 4chan:

LOL

Reaver. With all weapon options? That’s quite a lot of weapons.

Sicaran Tank Destroyers? Like the Venator. Just checked and not in Epic Scale yet (other four turreted ones are)

I mean…it’s not a ludicrous list. Dubious on the Reaver claim, but could be a repack, split across two variants. Or a separate weapons set.

Bit split on the infantry coming in MkVI, but Terminators now Tartaros pattern.

The source of course has me skeptical. I’m fairly confident nothing of worth has ever emerged from 4chan ever in the history of history. But? I’d quite like this to be true.

Aside from the conversion beamer & graviton destructor carapace options, were there any other reaver weapons that were only available in resin?

edit: and warp missile

It says 'alt' weapons rather than 'all' (i read it the as all at first by mistake as well!) for the Reaver.

So will be a different loadout to the 2 Reaver sets avaliable now. So some or all of the weapons that were available in FW resin.


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 xttz wrote:
Aside from the conversion beamer & graviton destructor carapace options, were there any other reaver weapons that were only available in resin?

edit: and warp missile

Volkite Eradicator and Vulcan Mega Bolter carapace mounts.

Ahh! So it does. Weird I read it right for the MkVI.

Overall? This feels plausible. But also could just be lazy guess work plausible.

An alternative infantry set has been a common wish list, if only to make obtaining Assault and Missile Launcher units less expensive. And splitting out Terminators would free up some sprue space (as would removing the Contemptors).

Sicaran Venators are just low hanging fruit. Not only the set not yet available, but unique chassis and in-game purpose.

Same for Reaver.

So…yeah. I hope this is real, but could just be a rational wishlist.


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Also….nothing mentioned for Solar Auxilia or Mechanicum.

I interpret the "alt Mk6 Set" as following:

If the rumours are valid and they stay with Mk6 (no other Patterns); I could see a Set without Terminators and Bolter Marines, but more different Special and Heavy Weapon options.

A nice touch of Detail would be alternative Sergeants with other Poses / Weapon options for optical flavor.

So convergent evolution of opinion, genuine leak or someone copying the thoughts here for a lark?

Only time will tell, the alternative, GW giving us more than two weeks notice before a product comes out, is too high a price to pay.

Someone convince Valrak to start doing LI leaks as a V-Tuber with a chibi-avatar. Mini-rak.