Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Some cultural groups might not be altogether onboard with mixed gender clubs.

Which, whilst I won’t necessarily agree, is all part of being a tolerant individual. Which is of course part of being inclusive.

As for Women Only Clubs Vs Men Only Clubs, I trust I don’t need to elaborate on why the two, thanks to misogyny, just aren’t an equal comparison? And yes. That is subject to the same case by case, tolerant “consider each club and its arguments in turn as they’re made” basis.

Just because Club A has some reason, and Club B has no reason, doesn’t mean I need to agree with both, either or neither. Because none of this is without significant grey areas.

That also, in case anyone wants to be particularly obtuse for the sake of being particularly obtuse, extends to my own wibblings on these matters.

Earlier today I commented saying that this thread is political and we shouldn't be having it in Dakka. My post just disappeared for some reason. Did the mods not like it and removed it or what happened?

Mod edit. Your post did not contribute in a constructive way, therefore it was removed. And please do not attach non-wargaming images to your posts. Off-site hosting is fine however.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Some cultural groups might not be altogether onboard with mixed gender clubs.

Which, whilst I won’t necessarily agree, is all part of being a tolerant individual. Which is of course part of being inclusive.

As for Women Only Clubs Vs Men Only Clubs, I trust I don’t need to elaborate on why the two, thanks to misogyny, just aren’t an equal comparison? And yes. That is subject to the same case by case, tolerant “consider each club and its arguments in turn as they’re made” basis.

This is a good point about such clubs. However, the whole idea of single-gender clubs is a bit of a distraction to this discussion because none of the wargaming clubs that have been discussed so far have declared themselves to be a single gender club.

I'm perfectly fine with womens-only and even mens-only clubs and gatherings of any kind, but they need to be declared as such from the outset and then they can be discussed -and I'm sure debated- as such.

All that said, anyone else feel that this discussion sort of devolved into an echo chamber largely lacking actual action steps that one might take towards diversifying the hobby and also lacking input from those whose presence would make a given club more "diverse".

I think there's a few ideas we've thrown around.

1) Icons - we've already seen this with women getting more positions in wargaming. Running paint channels, gaming channels, working in stores and such. A big one here would be more presenting content on GW+ and other big channels and soforth.

2) Representation at events - Salute had a womens panel this year which I think is another fantastic move. It's very similar to point 1, but more real world in your face and allows for engaging from both sides.

As an aside it was interesting how so many of them all told the same story that in person most people were kind and welcoming and that a lot of the hate/pushback was from online groups.

3) Moderating/language choice - I think Mad Doc rose this one up a few times. Can be tricky because until you identify specific groups and specific language issues its more of a generic consideration instead of a clear cut set of terms to avoid or such.




I do agree that one big barrier to increasing diversity is that the people from groups who are under/not represented are not in your system to be asked why they aren't there. So it can be very difficult to work out why they aren't present.

So discussions can end up going in circles and sometimes you can sit there considering that things are going well - that there are no barriers; that there are no inhibiting elements and that you are reaching out/marketing/making aware in the right way.


There's also a level of things outside of our control - things like GW or other firms using people from different backgrounds in marketing; creating themed models or just paint schemes and soforth .

 Hotzenplotz wrote:
Earlier today I commented saying that this thread is political and we shouldn't be having it in Dakka. My post just disappeared for some reason. Did the mods not like it and removed it or what happened?

Why do you believe addressing issues with a (perceived?) lack of diversity in the hobby is a political issue?

Acting like it isn't political, or is completely divorced from politics, is pretty naive in my mind.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Want to recast Jesus as Black, no problems from me. Now if you recast Storm from the X-Men as japanese, that wouldn't work.

Black Jesus is A-OK, but non-black Storm isn't? You realise how silly that sounds. You realise that the Egyptian government is kicking up a huge stink over Netflix race-swapping Cleopatra in something touted as a documentary?

But if we're talking fictional elements, then ethnic diversity, and in many cases a lack of ethnic diversity, is very important in fiction. Despite what people want to pretend, there are more places in the world that are virtually mono-ethnic than there are those that aren't. Not every part of the world looks like a cosmopolitan major Western capital or major city (and even within Western cities, racial groups tend to gather together - it's just the way reality is vs the tokenistic crap they try to push in TV/movies). Racial differences give a sense of place, geography, culture and all the kinds of things you need when world building.

Using a recent example I heard, compare Game of Thrones to The Witcher.

The Game of Thrones series goes out of its way to make each region different from one another. The people are not homogenised. The cultures are different. The styles are different. They film in wildly different locations and even use colour-grading to show a difference in places. Compare that to The Witcher, where every village and hamlet is populated like it came right out of a BBC diversity quota office. There's no sense of place anywhere, as every new location is just another copied of the same racial melting pot as the last one.

One feels lived in. One feels artificial.

I don't think I have ever seen a single "Black Jesus" in TV/Movies. A lot of white Jesus even though Jesus was probably more olive skinned.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Acting like it isn't political, or is completely divorced from politics, is pretty naive in my mind.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Want to recast Jesus as Black, no problems from me. Now if you recast Storm from the X-Men as japanese, that wouldn't work.

Black Jesus is A-OK, but non-black Storm isn't? You realise how silly that sounds.

You realise that the Egyptian government is kicking up a huge stink over Netflix race-swapping Cleopatra in something touted as a documentary?

Behold, Black madonna, mother of christ, and something most holy.


Mind you that is in the middle of switzerland which basically hadn't seen a Black person to the point when some tiraileurs sénegalése were pushed into switzerland during ww2 were at first confused and then basically surprised at the civilisationary Standards shown by their french.

Yes french/high french were considered high standards. Yes after some interactions with them the locals considered them french.


Sides that one should represent all of hummanity and the other was a ruler of a kingdom that was known for its more circular form of familiy tree. One is a semi abstract entity of believe the other is a real figur of history in a supposedly accurate depiction of history.

Fun fact , after ww2 a Lot of swiss origin US soldiers visited their homeland, often bringing friends along, some of them organised tours especialy those of that town, the Black madonna was a quite liked tourist destination regardless of skin colour.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
I don't think I have ever seen a single "Black Jesus" in TV/Movies. A lot of white Jesus even though Jesus was probably more olive skinned.

Considering he was jewish in judea, soon to be rebranded by rome, yes.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Behold, Black madonna, mother of christ, and something most holy.

Ok. And?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Behold, Black madonna, mother of christ, and something most holy.

Ok. And?

Well what is Madonna holding?

Again one is a semi abstract symbol of an universalist faith,the other is a clear defined charachter.

The problem is as you brought up the fact that it (the cleopatra "documentary") is claiming to be historicaly accurate.

The issue for cuda i think is, that the exchange of race of the clear defined charachter would fly in the charachters face, whilest the exchange of race for the literal god creating all of us as a kind of mirror image is far more fluid there.

On the examples given?

As covered, where he’s reputed to have born and lived, Jesus certainly wouldn’t have been white. The western imaging of Jesus is of course the result of it being….western. But sadly, there are still corners where showing him as anything other than blonde haired and blue eyed will lead to a book burning.

Storm however is explicitly a fictional character. So on one hand “what does her skin colour matter” seems a fairly innocuous. However consider Storm’s role in wider comics history. She is/was a relatively rare example of a non-white hero.

So whilst I agree to some extent, the importance of her character being black shouldn’t be ignored.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the examples given?

As covered, where he’s reputed to have born and lived, Jesus certainly wouldn’t have been white. The western imaging of Jesus is of course the result of it being….western. But sadly, there are still corners where showing him as anything other than blonde haired and blue eyed will lead to a book burning.

Storm however is explicitly a fictional character. So on one hand “what does her skin colour matter” seems a fairly innocuous. However consider Storm’s role in wider comics history. She is/was a relatively rare example of a non-white hero.

So whilst I agree to some extent, the importance of her character being black shouldn’t be ignored.

I don't know one singular depiction of Jesus being blond and blue eyed. And whilest we all kinda know how he looks like skin colour technically included, that is only really relevant if we would make a historicaly accurate documentary or work. Contrary to his depiction as a symbol of faith.

That said i think with 'literary ' figures there is something diffrent at play, and that has to do with narrative consistency, which you should not damage for the sake of the stability of the charachter portrayed especialy when the charachter is recurring charachter. Hence why a lot of people are frustrated with the comic industry recently which seems to activly practition charachter arsony for no reason other than spite.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Storm however is explicitly a fictional character. So on one hand “what does her skin colour matter” seems a fairly innocuous. However consider Storm’s role in wider comics history. She is/was a relatively rare example of a non-white hero.

So whilst I agree to some extent, the importance of her character being black shouldn’t be ignored.

If you take e.g. Magneto, his past as a jewish boy that barely survived the Holocaust is a fundamental part of the character (as it motivates his distrust of non-mutant Humans - he literally has been the victim of attempted genocide, and knows that humans are capable of it even among themselves, let alone against the literal 'other' of the mutants, which he regards as a race apart from humanity) - others, like Black Panther etc. etc. are also intimately tied to a specific ethnic background. As you said, it can still matter intrinsically, and in that case changing that without a narrative reason (like e.g. alternate universes/histories where changing it is the point) is boorish and looks like fishing for controversy.

Luckily, that's kind of beside the point for the various GW universes, as their all pretty much post-race(as a concept): when literal mutants and transhumans are running around and at-will genetic mutation as well as esoteric mutation are rampant, skin colour is the least of your problems.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the examples given?

As covered, where he’s reputed to have born and lived, Jesus certainly wouldn’t have been white. The western imaging of Jesus is of course the result of it being….western. But sadly, there are still corners where showing him as anything other than blonde haired and blue eyed will lead to a book burning.

Where is this happening? Everyone casts Jesus and Mary in their own cultural images and in the west there's more than just the Anglo-Saxon Jesus.

I’ve seen a lot of depictions of Jesus with straight hair. Most depictions I’ve seen give him light brown or blondish hair (although most of those are in Mormon settings). I don’t think I have ever seen a depiction of Jesus with a “Jew fro”. As a descendent of King David, he might have had red hair. If not that, then dark brown or black seem most likely.

 Tyran wrote:
I don't think I have ever seen a single "Black Jesus" in TV/Movies. A lot of white Jesus even though Jesus was probably more olive skinned.

American Gods is probably the closest off the top of my head. . . Even with that, Mr. Wednesday explains the in universe reason for it.

Again, we are letting the thread get derailed in minutia and navel gazing.

The question is how do you make the hobby more inclusive? The answer is you go out into the diverse communities and find out what would make them want to participate. There is probably plenty of detail out there all ready for generic products and marketing.

Then, you take this input and build a marketing plan to attract the demographics you are interested in attracting. It is not rocket science, but it is also work.

That is work that most hobby groups do not have the resources to do. It takes the industry leaders to do it and then filter what works out to the community.

 Easy E wrote:
The question is how do you make the hobby more inclusive?

Why does it need to be more inclusive though? What tangible or practical benefit is there to such a thing?

I'm all for demographics, and the targeting thereof, but there has to be a reason behind it. For most companies it's to expand potential customer bases, but far as I can tell we, here, don't have that goal, so again: What is the purpose behind increase diversity?

My group has a man of Saudi origin. Would having two of such people be better somehow? What precisely would change?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The question is how do you make the hobby more inclusive?

Why does it need to be more inclusive though? What tangible or practical benefit is there to such a thing?

I'm all for demographics, and the targeting thereof, but there has to be a reason behind it. For most companies it's to expand potential customer bases, but far as I can tell we, here, don't have that goal, so again: What is the purpose behind increase diversity?

My group has a man of Saudi origin. Would having two of such people be better somehow? What precisely would change?

More opponents?

It’s not that we need to have a one-of-each checkmark on a diversity scorecard. It’s that we want anyone and everyone to feel welcome to participate in our shared hobby. If someone out there decides to pass on 40k because “that’s just for middle aged white guys, I don’t feel like I’d be accepted” we have lost out on another potential hobbiest. Casting as wide a net as possible, making everyone feel they can join and have a place, will help our hobby grow.

More money. Basically.

Going right back to the roots? That’s the driving force here.

It’s in any products own interest to remove as many needless barriers as possible, in order to maximise custom and sales.

Cresting and inclusive and welcoming space isn’t a huge amount of effort. GW are going to paint models, write novels and produce artwork for the games anyway. Having LGBTQ+ characters….costs nothing. Showing off your models with various skin tones…costs nothing. Same with any art set in-universe. If someone can literally see themself in your universe, they’re more likely to pay attention, and then hopefully, money into your till.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The question is how do you make the hobby more inclusive?

Why does it need to be more inclusive though? What tangible or practical benefit is there to such a thing?

I'm all for demographics, and the targeting thereof, but there has to be a reason behind it. For most companies it's to expand potential customer bases, but far as I can tell we, here, don't have that goal, so again: What is the purpose behind increase diversity?

Especially in wargaming which is so heavy in art, narrative and creation, diversity is a great way to bring new ideas into the gaming community, New ways of doing things, new artistic and narrative perspectives, etc.

Also, from just a purely self-interested perspective, non-white people are becoming much larger percentages of most countries where wargaming has a major presence. If we want the hobby to thrive in the future, it is in everyone's interest to spread the hobby beyond the groups from which it currently draws. I don't think most gaming companies have the resources or knowledge to do this, so -like with most hobbies- spreading the word and growing the hobby falls to the participants in that hobby.

Suffice it to say that bringing in diverse people can benefit both the experience and the future viability of the hobby. It's a win-win, but it takes work-work.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Easy E wrote:
The question is how do you make the hobby more inclusive?

Why does it need to be more inclusive though? What tangible or practical benefit is there to such a thing?

Because that is what the OP is asking about.

 ForgedSteel wrote:
what can we do as the community to encourage more people -of all walks of life- to join?

So out of respect for the OP, I figured I would try to answer his question.

But also? Why shouldn’t it be more inclusive?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But also? Why shouldn’t it be more inclusive?

While this is not true for Warhammer in particular, art tends to suffer from an artistic standpoint by focusing on being inclusive as opposed to...let's say artistically true. The idea that everything needs to appeal to everyone is absurd.

trexmeyer wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But also? Why shouldn’t it be more inclusive?

While this is not true for Warhammer in particular, art tends to suffer from an artistic standpoint by focusing on being inclusive as opposed to...let's say artistically true. The idea that everything needs to appeal to everyone is absurd.

But, since it isn't true for Warhammer, I think there's probably more value than loss in being inclusive.

trexmeyer wrote:
While this is not true for Warhammer in particular, art tends to suffer from an artistic standpoint by focusing on being inclusive as opposed to...let's say artistically true. The idea that everything needs to appeal to everyone is absurd.

How is that relevant to a setting where there isn't segregation based on race, sex, or gender within humanity, at least not from a wider cultural standpoint?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
More money. Basically.

Going right back to the roots? That’s the driving force here.

It’s in any products own interest to remove as many needless barriers as possible, in order to maximise custom and sales.

Great, and that's the corporate side of things. I'm talking about what benefit there is for those of us who aren't GW shareholders.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cresting and inclusive and welcoming space isn’t a huge amount of effort. GW are going to paint models, write novels and produce artwork for the games anyway. Having LGBTQ+ characters….costs nothing. Showing off your models with various skin tones…costs nothing. Same with any art set in-universe. If someone can literally see themself in your universe, they’re more likely to pay attention, and then hopefully, money into your till.

Representation is important in children, but anyone who needs to see themselves represented in media - especially science fiction or fantasy filled with creatures, races and species that aren't real - probably has self-image issues. Back in the late 80's and 90's the most popular cartoons coming to Oz were of American origin. From what I recall, I never cried out in despair that there wasn't more Australian representation in the Ninja Turtles, Transformers or Dino-Riders (and Outback wasn't my default fav Transformer either).

But, if we have to change the art, stories and whatnot to draw more people in, aren't we essentially sacrificing the thing as it exists, changing it into something it is not? You're right, having an Asian Space Marine on a cover costs nothing, but I don't see that as really changing anything. That's more diversifying the imagry so Marines aren't all cloned screamy bald men.

Demographics exist for a reason. Changing something to bring in other demographics risks alienating and driving away your current demographics. Surely it would be better to make something that caters to different demographics rather than dramatically changing something that doesn't.

Changing something to bring in other demographics risks alienating and driving away your current demographics

Will more representation of other demographics in 40k drive you away? Is there a hard limit of gay genestealers that will cause nerd flight from the hobby once exceed?

I bet it would bring in or back as many players as it alienated. If it squirms the chuds out of the hobby, it’s better for everyone.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You're right, having an Asian Space Marine on a cover costs nothing, but I don't see that as really changing anything. That's more diversifying the imagry so Marines aren't all cloned screamy bald men.

Right, GW has been very generous to bald aging white dudes (no ageism here) who are usually either associated with power or prison. That said aren't all space marines technically Asian?