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Miguelsan wrote: I remember when you had to decide between a cheap bare bones infantry squad that was going to die on the first turn, or one with all the bells and whistles that costed a 50% extra.
M.
I remember a time when people wouldn't jump through hoops to keep justifying playing said game and when presented with a viable alternative didn't turn their collective noses up at it.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
Miguelsan wrote: I remember when you had to decide between a cheap bare bones infantry squad that was going to die on the first turn, or one with all the bells and whistles that costed a 50% extra.
M.
I remember a time when people wouldn't jump through hoops to keep justifying playing said game and when presented with a viable alternative didn't turn their collective noses up at it.
I remember when proper grumpy grognards didn't take to the internet to moan.... oh.. wait...
Moaning took place at conventions or in letters to the editors of gaming magazines.
I think what the internet did was act as an accelerant in spreading information that was already out there. Going through old games and magazines, certain strategies and "hacks" emerged, they just took a while to get around.
A great example of this is that when 4th ed. 40k came out and people began to realize that GW was now doing a "product cycle" rather than trying for a "definitive edition," the 2nd ed. retro movement was able to compare notes and found that there was a surprising overlap in what people felt needed to be fixed.
It was kind of weird to discover that players from around the world all agreed on a set of relatively simple fixes and many had already been using them.
Flame wars also got faster. Kids today have no idea of the patience required for waiting a week or more to see the replies to your sick burn. Nowadays, you can burn out a thread in a matter of days, but when I was young, people would argue for years over this stuff, and don't get me started about letters crossing each other in the mail.
Now you can go full nuclear over a rules dispute and even get banned in a single day, all in the comfort of your own home. You don't even need to go the post office to buy stamps! Luxury!
If you believe 4chsn moderators in interviews after they quit this still happens to this day. 2 guys posting the same arguments against each other daily for literally years. Both thinking its different people they're fighting with..
Grognards remember when lists were written on paper and you had to do your own maths. These days you print it out after some website spits it at you... and then it's not printed half of what it should have...
ProtoClone wrote: You damn kids and your high falutin games and rules.
All we needed in my day was a stick and an opponent. You beat each other until someone gave up.
ProtoClone wrote: You damn kids and your high falutin games and rules.
All we needed in my day was a stick and an opponent. You beat each other until someone gave up.
And we were better people for it too! You soon learned to play nice when someone had a 2nd ed whippy stick..
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So if GW are finally going to update the Vyper Jetbike (not a rumour!) I hope they restore the fighting platform.
I do miss that. Think I even converted one at the tail end of 2nd Ed.
Waiting for a company to make a model?!
That's kid stuff. In my day you made it yourself, using whatever was handy.
Same applied to boardgames. No one back then waiting for a special scenario, they made it themselves and hand-cut cardboard pieces for the new units.
Heck, I still have maps I drew on hex-sheet paper. (Oh and even getting that paper was a chore, I tell you! Before that I used hand-drawn grids made with a ruler.)
Kids these days have it easy. Go online, whinge away, wait for someone to bring you your precious toy, and whinge for something else.
In my day we had to cut down the tree, haul it to mills, hand-cycle the machinery, crank the paper roll, cut each individual sheet with a pocket knife, and THAT was how you made a gaming map.
Don't get me started on working in that lead mine to make miniatures!
"In my day we had to cut down the tree, haul it to mills, hand-cycle the machinery, crank the paper roll, cut each individual sheet with a pocket knife, and THAT was how you made ... toilet roll..."
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
There's also the clan loyalty thing, which makes no sense if they're just fungi. Why feel loyalty to anyone or anything?
Not all fungi are the same, a Death Cap & a Truffle are both mushrooms, ones delicious and one makes you dead. Orks can be racist too
That's kid stuff. In my day you made it yourself, using whatever was handy.
Same applied to boardgames. No one back then waiting for a special scenario, they made it themselves and hand-cut cardboard pieces for the new units.
Heck, I still have maps I drew on hex-sheet paper. (Oh and even getting that paper was a chore, I tell you! Before that I used hand-drawn grids made with a ruler.)
Kids these days have it easy. Go online, whinge away, wait for someone to bring you your precious toy, and whinge for something else.
In my day we had to cut down the tree, haul it to mills, hand-cycle the machinery, crank the paper roll, cut each individual sheet with a pocket knife, and THAT was how you made a gaming map.
Don't get me started on working in that lead mine to make miniatures!
I have the White Dwarf issue where they show you how to make a grav-tank for 40k out of a Speedstick container (or whatever UK brand used that container style; here in the US it was Speedstick). Also own the How to Make Wargaming Terrain that GW used to publish. Catch them trying to keep the Greed Workshop Hobby(tm) affordable now! We wouldn't want their board of directors to light their Cuban cigars with mere platinum plated lighters instead of £100 notes! Poor little rich boys. I bleed for them, I won't say from where.
Commissar von Toussaint wrote:
There's also the clan loyalty thing, which makes no sense if they're just fungi. Why feel loyalty to anyone or anything?
Not all fungi are the same, a Death Cap & a Truffle are both mushrooms, ones delicious and one makes you dead. Orks can be racist too
My absolute favourite Mushroom is Gyromitra esculenta. It produces enough Hydrazine (yes, the stuff used as rocket fuel) that you can get light poisoning just by being in a badly ventilated room with some. It's deadly poisonous if eaten. 'Esculenta' means 'delicious', people in Finland prepare it in convoluted ways to make it un-poisonous enough to ingest in moderate quantities.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So if GW are finally going to update the Vyper Jetbike (not a rumour!) I hope they restore the fighting platform.
I do miss that. Think I even converted one at the tail end of 2nd Ed.
Waiting for a company to make a model?!
That's kid stuff. In my day you made it yourself, using whatever was handy.
I've really got to get back to some of the junk I made out of nail anchors, vending machine capsules and milk bottle caps, and post them here for all of you to gouge out your eyes over!
Sigh. Good times.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/18 20:11:09
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
That's kid stuff. In my day you made it yourself, using whatever was handy.
Same applied to boardgames. No one back then waiting for a special scenario, they made it themselves and hand-cut cardboard pieces for the new units.
Heck, I still have maps I drew on hex-sheet paper. (Oh and even getting that paper was a chore, I tell you! Before that I used hand-drawn grids made with a ruler.)
Kids these days have it easy. Go online, whinge away, wait for someone to bring you your precious toy, and whinge for something else.
In my day we had to cut down the tree, haul it to mills, hand-cycle the machinery, crank the paper roll, cut each individual sheet with a pocket knife, and THAT was how you made a gaming map.
Don't get me started on working in that lead mine to make miniatures!
I have the White Dwarf issue where they show you how to make a grav-tank for 40k out of a Speedstick container (or whatever UK brand used that container style; here in the US it was Speedstick). Also own the How to Make Wargaming Terrain that GW used to publish. Catch them trying to keep the Greed Workshop Hobby(tm) affordable now! We wouldn't want their board of directors to light their Cuban cigars with mere platinum plated lighters instead of £100 notes! Poor little rich boys. I bleed for them, I won't say from where.
I remember the article where they showed you how to paint their expensive plastic battle board.. using little pots of paint and a small brush, amazed they missed a chance to promote their crap "airbrush".
they didn't mention the larger paint pack they sold specifically to paint this board with
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The spray gun was never marketed as an airbrush. Just an alternative to sprays for base coating.
Once had a kid try to return one. Thick with paint. He didn’t take kindly to being told “no”. But then he was an odd kid.
this is why painting that expensive bit of plastic they called a table was the perfect thing to use it on really
imagine that paying for a plastic table instead of stealing your parents finest dining table cloth and getting paint all over it the way nature intended
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The spray gun was never marketed as an airbrush. Just an alternative to sprays for base coating.
Once had a kid try to return one. Thick with paint. He didn’t take kindly to being told “no”. But then he was an odd kid.
this is why painting that expensive bit of plastic they called a table was the perfect thing to use it on really
imagine that paying for a plastic table instead of stealing your parents finest dining table cloth and getting paint all over it the way nature intended
Tablecloth?! All well and good for those to the manor born, but in my family we used old Army blankets spread on the dirt floor for our games.
Okay, maybe not on the dirt floor, but for big battles, the old Army wool was a cheap alternative to gaming felt.
As for making your own toilet paper, please. That's what the Sears catalog was for!
We used a bolt of fabric that we crumpled up and hit with some SAC Bomber Tan to give it a little character. Books under it for hills, salvaged styrofoam bunkers. Good times.
My first gaming table comprised of two carpenter trestles, an old office top plonked on those, topped off with two interior doors to form the board. Painted goblin green in colour, using paint mixed at B&Q (a hardware store in the U.K.).
This was during 2nd Ed. And because interior doors are more than 2’ wide? Each side had a margin which was handy for datafax cards and that.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
From a grognard's perspective, I think most have a limit of how much BS they can put up with whichever gaming company and game they follow, where they just say "no more". It might be a price rise, a poor piece of rules writing, an un-necessary change to the background made completely for commercial reasons, and taking a great hairy dump on the work of their predecessors. It will be one single thing, one straw, that breaks the camel's back.
As this is a grognard-friendly zone, this video from Monty Python illustrated it pretty well. The person affected would be John Cleese (is it safe for me to say that?) - the extra little fish slap across the face: I'm going to say for me it was 6th edition 40k, and I was trying to work out with my opponent which re-roll, amongst the five special rules in play, took presedence over the other. And I just stopped and said "wtf I am bothering with this"
example of a game company going "gun-foot-aim-fire-reload-repeat"
Battlefront with Flames of War, the 4th incarnation of which was so well loved by its player base that Battlefront nuked their own forum
never played first, I'm told 2nd improved a lot, third fixed a few things but "simplified" a lot that was ok, 4th moved it from being "the game of the film of ww2" towards "now updated for a modern audience!" with a game that was only partly WW2 connected shifted firmly into the 1980's with a WW2 skin based on the "team yankee" game in a desperate attempt to chase X-Wing players
seriously, what is is with game systems assuming people cannot count above 100, I mean go to Norfolk, base 11 on fingers is easy
leopard wrote: example of a game company going "gun-foot-aim-fire-reload-repeat"
D&D 4th edition, the one with the cards that played like a tabletop console game. No more "describe your attack," nope it was a power as written.
Total commercial failure, so much so I heard that 3.5 editions books on resale outsold it.
4th was pretty good as a MMO combat simulator but, for me, it wasn't D&D.
I did think it sold fairly well, at least to begin with, though. And it did get the Adventurer's League ball rolling, which I think is a positive thing.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
leopard wrote: example of a game company going "gun-foot-aim-fire-reload-repeat"
D&D 4th edition, the one with the cards that played like a tabletop console game. No more "describe your attack," nope it was a power as written.
Total commercial failure, so much so I heard that 3.5 editions books on resale outsold it.
ah yes the video game played with dice on a table top, you can do what the writers present and nothing else. well unless you have a GM with common sense and then the rules are at best a framework to be discarded when they get in the way..
I gave it a miss
in other news, I remember when people made their own army roster, scribbled in the margin of an often reused bit of paper with the stub of a pencil
Easy E wrote: Back in my day, a Virus Outbreak strategy card could sideline 90% of my army before turn 1.
That took character to play!
Also a certain amount of physical courage, particularly if your opponent had enjoyed a pre-game pint.
I'm old enough to remember when PLAYERS had to act as the "developers" of the game because the actual designers had no earthly idea what they were actually building. Many of the "campaign" games had never been played to completion. I remember calling up the designer (hey, they had the number in the rules) and asking if a rule permitted two charges in the same turn. Awkward pause. He re-read the rule several times aloud. "I guess so. None of our guys ever wanted to try that."*
"Errata" actually included redrawing portions of the maps and core rules would have "Oh yeah, that totally wrecks the game so don't do it" updates.
Playtesting was a luxury for the super-rich, sort of like a car that would start when you turned the key. Real gamers bought a loose collection of gaming spare parts and three sets of contradictory schematics and figured out how to make it work.
Kids these days! As soon as they have a question, they run to the internet to find the answer.
*Dean Essig, Civil War Brigade Series. I bloodlusted the Iron Brigade and wanted to go for broke. It was legal!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/21 00:32:47
Pacific wrote: From a grognard's perspective, I think most have a limit of how much BS they can put up with whichever gaming company and game they follow, where they just say "no more". It might be a price rise, a poor piece of rules writing, an un-necessary change to the background made completely for commercial reasons, and taking a great hairy dump on the work of their predecessors. It will be one single thing, one straw, that breaks the camel's back.
As this is a grognard-friendly zone, this video from Monty Python illustrated it pretty well. The person affected would be John Cleese (is it safe for me to say that?) - the extra little fish slap across the face: I'm going to say for me it was 6th edition 40k, and I was trying to work out with my opponent which re-roll, amongst the five special rules in play, took presedence over the other. And I just stopped and said "wtf I am bothering with this"
I do not understand the endless constant hype products have today. Before the current thing is released they're already previewing the next 2 releases. There's no time to digest any thing or figure out what you want to do with a game, it's just an endless cycle of marketing with everything else out the window. Then once enough people catch on its time for a new edition, Not to improve anything of course. It's to need all the best selling things into the floor and bump up what didn't sell well last time.
I can't remember who it was but an old GW chap said the company was doomed when the marketing department started to dictate to the design department and I couldn't agree more. I don't need nor want online algorithms to dictate the way a hobby is engaged with. But now everything is based on maximum exposure online and little else. You sell your soul to a robot and lose the fun of the hobby.
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