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ERJAK wrote:
No. And the different space marine chapters didn't need their own books either.

You get one page of rules and 2 pages of fluff like everybody else.

But noooooo, I can't have Black Templars unless I'm specifically given Crusader squads and nobody else because no other Chapters go on Crusades!

 Gert wrote:

Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

Oh really now, so basically the formeless goop pile of utter paper waste we got now?
Iow what feels like a force more stringent to the codex astartes than UM? Just with more tentacles and Spikes.
Except for those things that gw fails to make look interesting aka dino and spiderbots?
Or has tentacles growing out Off? Which btw still suck compared to their 3.5 iteration and are basically an HH unit par excellence considering gal vorbak?


The whole tentacle thingy is not fitting by the by for a whole slew of Chaos forces as it stands. AL never got pushed into the eye f.e.

Instead of what they were supposed to be , cue Gads quote?

The potentially warped ancient relics of a bygone era running on spite alone? Or the uncanny valley daemonengines like the decimator or the recently removed xana lineage?


And were excactly is cultist representation in the current paradigm ? In the fething legends PDF it is. Or as afterthoughts poorly implemented. Or completly replacing Chaos marines when gw inevitably fails again to make csm tacs worth the ink.

I never stated by the way that malefic machine limitations shouldn't apply either. I stated that legions should get access and nothing more.

But then there's your perturabo point formulated as an exemple. Yet logistics and efficency are his aims you argue. If the logistics as already pointed out to you would really be this bad for the cohesive legions then that would be squandering ressources and instead of culling weakness by "Training excercise" you'd merely lower Overall strength.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

It's worth remembering though that when Andy wrote that there were no Contemptors, Spartans, Tartaros, Cataphractii, Volkite etc. That stuff wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of Forge World yet. They had combi-botlers instead of stormbolters and reaper autocannons instead of assault cannons, the old 'low tech' heresy versions, rather than the more advanced Imperial kit. The identity of the army was set well before the Heresy stuff crept in to 40k.

Bencyclopedia wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

It's worth remembering though that when Andy wrote that there were no Contemptors, Spartans, Tartaros, Cataphractii, Volkite etc. That stuff wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of Forge World yet. They had combi-botlers instead of stormbolters and reaper autocannons instead of assault cannons, the old 'low tech' heresy versions, rather than the more advanced Imperial kit. The identity of the army was set well before the Heresy stuff crept in to 40k.

I see your point. Originally, the "Heresy" equipment was more "low tech" than the current Imperial tech. And, obviously the current Heresy era tech is more "high tech" than current Imperial tech, isn't it? Right? Let me ask you some questions:

Which is more "high tech"? A tracked Sicaran/Kratos/Land Raider? Or any of the various Primaris Grav Tanks?

Which is more "high tech"? The tracked Fellblade chassis tanks (basically more advanced Baneblade chassis tanks), or the bigger, and flying (grav tech, again) Astreus?

A Contemptor or a Redemtor? Admittedly, that one is harder. Contemptors have a force field giving them an invulnerable save (probably, we haven't seen the 10th edition Contemptor rules yet), but the Redemptor has more wounds (again, probably, we still need to see those 10th edition Contemptor rules ).

How about a Heresy era CSM or a Primaris marine?

Seems to me, that Cawl has pushed the current Imperial tech beyond most Heresy era tech. And that maybe, letting CSM use Heresy era tech will continue the aforementioned "CSM use older, inferior tech, compared to modern Imperial tech" paradigm.

Key there is understanding what the tech levels tell us about their time.

The Great Crusade wasn’t something The Emperor could afford to hang around and hold fire on. Once the Warp Storms blew out, it was Go Time. We must also keep in mind The Imperium’s growth was rapid.

As with any military, standardised equipment is desirable, as it keeps your logistics as simple as possible. Hence the humble Lasgun’s storied place. And indeed why the more destructive, arguably better suited terror weapon but more complicated Volkite range was eventually traded out for the still quite nasty Bolt range when it came to arming and equipping the Legions.

The same is true of tanks and other support stuff. Sure, you could make every tank anti-Grav with big guns and a decent transport capacity, because that tech absolutely exists. But you need tank and support stuff in such increasingly vast numbers, there’s a lot to be said for mass produced, middle of the road equipment.

Cawl? Cawl had something The Emperor didn’t. No. Seriously he did. Wanna know what that was?

10,000 years. Give or take. 10,000 years of research, development, production, stockpiling and mothballing. Even if the approx 1,000 Chapter of Marines were to have 10 Repulsors? You just need to average one produced every year.

Another thing Cawl had was No Other Pressing Concerns. Just his pet project, and his multiple mind-copies all beavering away. Requisitioning components, researching and testing STCs, perhaps even (heresy!) adapting stuff, relatively safe in the knowledge folk would only find out if/when his benefactor - a son of The Emperor and therefore Omnissiah - returned to the fold. An authority near as second to none bar The Emperor himself.

Time. Time and not having to constantly repair and replenish losses does wonderful things.

Yeah, the time to improve on things. Biggest thing that they could float with anti-grav in the Crusade/Heresy era? Javelin land speeder. Biggest thing that Cawl can float with anti-grav? A super heavy tank. And he's using plenty of Heresy era tech while he's at it, and quite often improving on that. "Neo" volkite? Laser destroyers? Accelerator Cannons? Yeah, he's got it covered. And he's improved on bolters, plasma, meltas, etc, etc. And again even the Marines themselves.

Yeah, I don't see how giving the Traitor Legions access to Heresy-era tech breaks the "current Imperial tech is better" paradigm.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

It's worth remembering though that when Andy wrote that there were no Contemptors, Spartans, Tartaros, Cataphractii, Volkite etc. That stuff wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of Forge World yet. They had combi-botlers instead of stormbolters and reaper autocannons instead of assault cannons, the old 'low tech' heresy versions, rather than the more advanced Imperial kit. The identity of the army was set well before the Heresy stuff crept in to 40k.

I see your point. Originally, the "Heresy" equipment was more "low tech" than the current Imperial tech. And, obviously the current Heresy era tech is more "high tech" than current Imperial tech, isn't it? Right? Let me ask you some questions:

Which is more "high tech"? A tracked Sicaran/Kratos/Land Raider? Or any of the various Primaris Grav Tanks?

Which is more "high tech"? The tracked Fellblade chassis tanks (basically more advanced Baneblade chassis tanks), or the bigger, and flying (grav tech, again) Astreus?

A Contemptor or a Redemtor? Admittedly, that one is harder. Contemptors have a force field giving them an invulnerable save (probably, we haven't seen the 10th edition Contemptor rules yet), but the Redemptor has more wounds (again, probably, we still need to see those 10th edition Contemptor rules ).

How about a Heresy era CSM or a Primaris marine?

Seems to me, that Cawl has pushed the current Imperial tech beyond most Heresy era tech. And that maybe, letting CSM use Heresy era tech will continue the aforementioned "CSM use older, inferior tech, compared to modern Imperial tech" paradigm.

Yes the new Primaris stuff is 'more advanced' than the Heresy tech, but it's also more advanced than what CSM already have, so I'm not sure that's a compelling argument. But that's not really what I was getting at.

All of the Heresy stuff wasn't part of the origins of 40k. It was invented to serve the novels, and eventually being made into kits by Forge World, before finally reaching plastic. It has crept into 40k in a limited way with some rules support, but the only ones in the Space Marine codex are relic terminators and Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They don't even market those kits in the 40k section of the website anymore, you have to go to the Horus Heresy section to find them.

The Heresy 'stuff' isn't really part of the identity of 40k let alone the CSM identity and it certainly doesn't seem like GW are likely to change that.

I appreciate that people that got to 40k CSM from Horus Heresy lore might feel like they're not getting what was advertised, but at the end of the day it seems pretty clear that GW's current vision for CSM =/= 30K traitor legions.

Bencyclopedia wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

It's worth remembering though that when Andy wrote that there were no Contemptors, Spartans, Tartaros, Cataphractii, Volkite etc. That stuff wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of Forge World yet. They had combi-botlers instead of stormbolters and reaper autocannons instead of assault cannons, the old 'low tech' heresy versions, rather than the more advanced Imperial kit. The identity of the army was set well before the Heresy stuff crept in to 40k.

I see your point. Originally, the "Heresy" equipment was more "low tech" than the current Imperial tech. And, obviously the current Heresy era tech is more "high tech" than current Imperial tech, isn't it? Right? Let me ask you some questions:

Which is more "high tech"? A tracked Sicaran/Kratos/Land Raider? Or any of the various Primaris Grav Tanks?

Which is more "high tech"? The tracked Fellblade chassis tanks (basically more advanced Baneblade chassis tanks), or the bigger, and flying (grav tech, again) Astreus?

A Contemptor or a Redemtor? Admittedly, that one is harder. Contemptors have a force field giving them an invulnerable save (probably, we haven't seen the 10th edition Contemptor rules yet), but the Redemptor has more wounds (again, probably, we still need to see those 10th edition Contemptor rules ).

How about a Heresy era CSM or a Primaris marine?

Seems to me, that Cawl has pushed the current Imperial tech beyond most Heresy era tech. And that maybe, letting CSM use Heresy era tech will continue the aforementioned "CSM use older, inferior tech, compared to modern Imperial tech" paradigm.

Yes the new Primaris stuff is 'more advanced' than the Heresy tech, but it's also more advanced than what CSM already have, so I'm not sure that's a compelling argument. But that's not really what I was getting at.

All of the Heresy stuff wasn't part of the origins of 40k. It was invented to serve the novels, and eventually being made into kits by Forge World, before finally reaching plastic. It has crept into 40k in a limited way with some rules support, but the only ones in the Space Marine codex are relic terminators and Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They don't even market those kits in the 40k section of the website anymore, you have to go to the Horus Heresy section to find them.

The Heresy 'stuff' isn't really part of the identity of 40k let alone the CSM identity and it certainly doesn't seem like GW are likely to change that.

I appreciate that people that got to 40k CSM from Horus Heresy lore might feel like they're not getting what was advertised, but at the end of the day it seems pretty clear that GW's current vision for CSM =/= 30K traitor legions.

Sooooo....you're just one of those "Forge World models/rules/lore 'don't count'" individuals? Despite Forge World being around since 3rd edition (did the Dreadclaw that I repeatedly used back then "not count"?)? Okayyyyy. Moving on......

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

It's worth remembering though that when Andy wrote that there were no Contemptors, Spartans, Tartaros, Cataphractii, Volkite etc. That stuff wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of Forge World yet. They had combi-botlers instead of stormbolters and reaper autocannons instead of assault cannons, the old 'low tech' heresy versions, rather than the more advanced Imperial kit. The identity of the army was set well before the Heresy stuff crept in to 40k.

I see your point. Originally, the "Heresy" equipment was more "low tech" than the current Imperial tech. And, obviously the current Heresy era tech is more "high tech" than current Imperial tech, isn't it? Right? Let me ask you some questions:

Which is more "high tech"? A tracked Sicaran/Kratos/Land Raider? Or any of the various Primaris Grav Tanks?

Which is more "high tech"? The tracked Fellblade chassis tanks (basically more advanced Baneblade chassis tanks), or the bigger, and flying (grav tech, again) Astreus?

A Contemptor or a Redemtor? Admittedly, that one is harder. Contemptors have a force field giving them an invulnerable save (probably, we haven't seen the 10th edition Contemptor rules yet), but the Redemptor has more wounds (again, probably, we still need to see those 10th edition Contemptor rules ).

How about a Heresy era CSM or a Primaris marine?

Seems to me, that Cawl has pushed the current Imperial tech beyond most Heresy era tech. And that maybe, letting CSM use Heresy era tech will continue the aforementioned "CSM use older, inferior tech, compared to modern Imperial tech" paradigm.

Yes the new Primaris stuff is 'more advanced' than the Heresy tech, but it's also more advanced than what CSM already have, so I'm not sure that's a compelling argument. But that's not really what I was getting at.

All of the Heresy stuff wasn't part of the origins of 40k. It was invented to serve the novels, and eventually being made into kits by Forge World, before finally reaching plastic. It has crept into 40k in a limited way with some rules support, but the only ones in the Space Marine codex are relic terminators and Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They don't even market those kits in the 40k section of the website anymore, you have to go to the Horus Heresy section to find them.

The Heresy 'stuff' isn't really part of the identity of 40k let alone the CSM identity and it certainly doesn't seem like GW are likely to change that.

I appreciate that people that got to 40k CSM from Horus Heresy lore might feel like they're not getting what was advertised, but at the end of the day it seems pretty clear that GW's current vision for CSM =/= 30K traitor legions.

Sooooo....you're just one of those "Forge World models/rules/lore 'don't count'" individuals? Despite Forge World being around since 3rd edition (did the Dreadclaw that I repeatedly used back then "not count"?)? Okayyyyy. Moving on......

That's a pretty snarky label to apply and not at all what I wrote.

I'm just saying that the GW's actions indicate that it doesn't agree with that vision for CSM in 40K.

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea for them to bring 30K stuff in, just that currently it seems like an unreasonable expectation given the direction that GW is currently heading.

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

It's worth remembering though that when Andy wrote that there were no Contemptors, Spartans, Tartaros, Cataphractii, Volkite etc. That stuff wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of Forge World yet. They had combi-botlers instead of stormbolters and reaper autocannons instead of assault cannons, the old 'low tech' heresy versions, rather than the more advanced Imperial kit. The identity of the army was set well before the Heresy stuff crept in to 40k.

I see your point. Originally, the "Heresy" equipment was more "low tech" than the current Imperial tech. And, obviously the current Heresy era tech is more "high tech" than current Imperial tech, isn't it? Right? Let me ask you some questions:

Which is more "high tech"? A tracked Sicaran/Kratos/Land Raider? Or any of the various Primaris Grav Tanks?

Which is more "high tech"? The tracked Fellblade chassis tanks (basically more advanced Baneblade chassis tanks), or the bigger, and flying (grav tech, again) Astreus?

A Contemptor or a Redemtor? Admittedly, that one is harder. Contemptors have a force field giving them an invulnerable save (probably, we haven't seen the 10th edition Contemptor rules yet), but the Redemptor has more wounds (again, probably, we still need to see those 10th edition Contemptor rules ).

How about a Heresy era CSM or a Primaris marine?

Seems to me, that Cawl has pushed the current Imperial tech beyond most Heresy era tech. And that maybe, letting CSM use Heresy era tech will continue the aforementioned "CSM use older, inferior tech, compared to modern Imperial tech" paradigm.

Yes the new Primaris stuff is 'more advanced' than the Heresy tech, but it's also more advanced than what CSM already have, so I'm not sure that's a compelling argument. But that's not really what I was getting at.

All of the Heresy stuff wasn't part of the origins of 40k. It was invented to serve the novels, and eventually being made into kits by Forge World, before finally reaching plastic. It has crept into 40k in a limited way with some rules support, but the only ones in the Space Marine codex are relic terminators and Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They don't even market those kits in the 40k section of the website anymore, you have to go to the Horus Heresy section to find them.

The Heresy 'stuff' isn't really part of the identity of 40k let alone the CSM identity and it certainly doesn't seem like GW are likely to change that.

I appreciate that people that got to 40k CSM from Horus Heresy lore might feel like they're not getting what was advertised, but at the end of the day it seems pretty clear that GW's current vision for CSM =/= 30K traitor legions.

Sooooo....you're just one of those "Forge World models/rules/lore 'don't count'" individuals? Despite Forge World being around since 3rd edition (did the Dreadclaw that I repeatedly used back then "not count"?)? Okayyyyy. Moving on......

That's a pretty snarky label to apply and not at all what I wrote.

I'm just saying that the GW's actions indicate that it doesn't agree with that vision for CSM in 40K.

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea for them to bring 30K stuff in, just that currently it seems like an unreasonable expectation given the direction that GW is currently heading.

Ok, fine, I was being "snarky". But it was definitely the feel that I was getting from your comments. I apologize if I was misunderstanding you.

But we're not talking about what gw is doing, but what they should be doing. IE: supporting the many ways that CSM can be represented on the table.

Again, my apologies if I've misunderstood you.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Spoiler:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Bencyclopedia wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Again for the third time, I don't think Chapters should get better access. I don't think your proposal is better because it removes the point of CSM being CSM. They're not the twisted and corrupted remains of the once proud Legiones Astartes dabbling in dark magic and tech heresy, they're just the Legions but a bit spikier.

But is that really "the point" of CSM, or just one of many, and the one that you prefer? Let's see what someone who had considerable input into what CSM were designed to be after the ancient days of RT:

To me the Chaos Space Marines needed to be characterized as a threat reaching back to the Imperium's past, a threat that had refused to lie down and become a part of history. This is why the Gods of Chaos are less pivotal in Codex Chaos; we felt that the motivations of Chaos Space Marines should remain their own, no matter how debased and vile. Though the corrupted marines of the Traitor Legions make excellent champions for the Gods of Chaos, they are not pawns and have their own agendas of vengeance, empire-building, and vindication or arcane study that gives them purpose

Andy Chambers, from the Designer's Note to Codex Chaos: 2nd edition, page 112

And also from that same Designer's Note:

Another interesting spin we came up with was to make Chaos Space Marines forces feel as if they'd been exiled to the Eye of Terror ten millennia before the Imperium's "present" day. Though the technological advancement of the Imperium moves at the speed of an aged tortoise ten thousand years was bound to bring some changes. This suggested limiting the Traitor Legion's weaponry to some of the "older" types and making others dangerous, experimental precursors of the guns used by Imperial Space Marines. This, combined with the older patterns of power armour the designers have used, gives the Chaos Space Marines miniatures a dark, archaic feel, that contrasts well with the clean, upright loyalist Space Marines.

So, "Old Warriors, fighting an Old War, with old equipment" was one of the original "points" of CSM, at least according to one of their most important designers. Of course, there are many other themes covered by the forces of the Chaos Space Marines, and those should be there for those interested to explore and represent in their own armies. But so should that one, for those of us that want to represent it.

It's worth remembering though that when Andy wrote that there were no Contemptors, Spartans, Tartaros, Cataphractii, Volkite etc. That stuff wasn't even a glimmer in the eye of Forge World yet. They had combi-botlers instead of stormbolters and reaper autocannons instead of assault cannons, the old 'low tech' heresy versions, rather than the more advanced Imperial kit. The identity of the army was set well before the Heresy stuff crept in to 40k.

I see your point. Originally, the "Heresy" equipment was more "low tech" than the current Imperial tech. And, obviously the current Heresy era tech is more "high tech" than current Imperial tech, isn't it? Right? Let me ask you some questions:

Which is more "high tech"? A tracked Sicaran/Kratos/Land Raider? Or any of the various Primaris Grav Tanks?

Which is more "high tech"? The tracked Fellblade chassis tanks (basically more advanced Baneblade chassis tanks), or the bigger, and flying (grav tech, again) Astreus?

A Contemptor or a Redemtor? Admittedly, that one is harder. Contemptors have a force field giving them an invulnerable save (probably, we haven't seen the 10th edition Contemptor rules yet), but the Redemptor has more wounds (again, probably, we still need to see those 10th edition Contemptor rules ).

How about a Heresy era CSM or a Primaris marine?

Seems to me, that Cawl has pushed the current Imperial tech beyond most Heresy era tech. And that maybe, letting CSM use Heresy era tech will continue the aforementioned "CSM use older, inferior tech, compared to modern Imperial tech" paradigm.

Yes the new Primaris stuff is 'more advanced' than the Heresy tech, but it's also more advanced than what CSM already have, so I'm not sure that's a compelling argument. But that's not really what I was getting at.

All of the Heresy stuff wasn't part of the origins of 40k. It was invented to serve the novels, and eventually being made into kits by Forge World, before finally reaching plastic. It has crept into 40k in a limited way with some rules support, but the only ones in the Space Marine codex are relic terminators and Contemptor Dreadnoughts. They don't even market those kits in the 40k section of the website anymore, you have to go to the Horus Heresy section to find them.

The Heresy 'stuff' isn't really part of the identity of 40k let alone the CSM identity and it certainly doesn't seem like GW are likely to change that.

I appreciate that people that got to 40k CSM from Horus Heresy lore might feel like they're not getting what was advertised, but at the end of the day it seems pretty clear that GW's current vision for CSM =/= 30K traitor legions.

Sooooo....you're just one of those "Forge World models/rules/lore 'don't count'" individuals? Despite Forge World being around since 3rd edition (did the Dreadclaw that I repeatedly used back then "not count"?)? Okayyyyy. Moving on......

That's a pretty snarky label to apply and not at all what I wrote.

I'm just saying that the GW's actions indicate that it doesn't agree with that vision for CSM in 40K.

I'm not saying that it's a bad idea for them to bring 30K stuff in, just that currently it seems like an unreasonable expectation given the direction that GW is currently heading.

Ok, fine, I was being "snarky". But it was definitely the feel that I was getting from your comments. I apologize if I was misunderstanding you.

But we're not talking about what gw is doing, but what they should be doing. IE: supporting the many ways that CSM can be represented on the table.

Again, my apologies if I've misunderstood you.

No worries, getting things across in text it always tricky.

That's a fair statement about this being about what GW should do. It's always going to be difficult question because different people want different things. Personally I'd prefer a more soup approach to Chaos with less focus on CSM in particular, but franky it's been Codex: CSM rather than Codex: Chaos since 3rd edition so I have to live with that.

Going more directly to the point of the marked legions, separating them out let's GW give them each a more unique identity from a table top perspective, which is probably a good thing in principle.

Cool. Shake hands, no hard feelings, try to understand each other better in the future?

Edit: Good communication is key. I really do apologize if I said anything out of line.

If only the Arquitor Plagueburst Crawler wasn't arbitrarily limited to Death Guard only...

You could have a customisable generic 'artillery tank' unit entry to also cover Basilisks for Iron Warriors, Cannons of Khorne for World Eaters, maybe Vindicators too.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
If only the Arquitor Plagueburst Crawler wasn't arbitrarily limited to Death Guard only...

You could have a customisable generic 'artillery tank' unit entry to also cover Basilisks for Iron Warriors, Cannons of Khorne for World Eaters, maybe Vindicators too.

Can't have that, see that is HH tech and that mustn't be in the faction that literally refers back to these golden days of technology as a reason for existing. Because HH tech is a Big nono, faaaar to advanced

But care for some antigrav primaris? Technology so fidely a far better mechanicus couldn't manage to mass produce? Yet somehow a singular techpriest not only managed to do so en mass but Beat all other antigrav from supposedly far more advanced civilisations beyond necrons which float a whole pyramid?
I memeber a time were the ravenwing masters jetbike was an absurd rarity.
And yet technological stagnation and devolution a hall mark characterisation of the iom and forces based upon humans should still be a thing? But only for non-primaris of course.

The Primaris Anti-Grav isn't really all that anti-grav anymore. No Fly. No moves over terrain stuff, etc. Its cosmetic.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Yeah, the time to improve on things. Biggest thing that they could float with anti-grav in the Crusade/Heresy era? Javelin land speeder. Biggest thing that Cawl can float with anti-grav? A super heavy tank. And he's using plenty of Heresy era tech while he's at it, and quite often improving on that. "Neo" volkite? Laser destroyers? Accelerator Cannons? Yeah, he's got it covered. And he's improved on bolters, plasma, meltas, etc, etc. And again even the Marines themselves.

Yeah, I don't see how giving the Traitor Legions access to Heresy-era tech breaks the "current Imperial tech is better" paradigm.

Gonna take this to Background

Either all-in-one, or supplements. Some of the arbitrary restrictions placed on the God legions when they got their own books are baffling.

Some combination of the 2nd edition codex, the 3.5 dex & the Traitor Legions codex would be great, they've all given you several ways to represent both battle-hardened veterans of the long war and newly-turned renegades.

The messaging about CSM and what they get access to has always been contradictor and stupid:
"Why don't we have Centurions?" "Too new, CSM have older gear"
"Why can't we have Volkite and HH vehicles then? they're old" "Hard to maintain"
"But half the mechanicus fell during the heresy, we're always being told about the soul forge and the various Dark mechanicus facilities supplying the legions"

It's like half the imperial armoury is equipped with bombs that go off as soon as someone questions the Emperor. all the Speeders, all the grav tech, everything Primaris just explodes the moment the chapter starts to go Renegade.

Death Guard were ruined for me when they got their own book. They went from a slow, silent, implacable wall of power armour to giggling Captain Planet villains sprouting tentacles and bells from every available surface, it's like they got into a teleporter accident with some Skaven. Relying or hordes of poxwalkers and Daemon engines (!?)

Here are some quotes from Index Astartes: Death Guard:

Their weapons and armour were rarely the most expertly artificed, certainly not the most beatutifully-ornamented, but functioned without flaw.. Mortarion preferred to utilise huge waves of infantry, well-equipped and highly trained on an individual level...all his Space Marines were expected by Mortarion to be equally adept at Bolter, Bolt pistol and close combat weapon, to fight with whatever weapon circumstances dictated...the combat doctrine that served the Death Guard so well in life now suits the damned character of the Plague Marines to perfection...the manner in which the Plague Marines carry themselves to war still reflects the hand of the Primarch which forged them, shaped them and led them to their damnation

That sound like "Huge amounts of chaff poxwalkers" to you?
Does "huge waves of infantry" sound like something well-represented by reducing max squad sizes from 20 to 10?
Does "squads equipped with melee weapons lose their bolters" sound like fighting with "whatever weapon circumstances dictated"
Does "complete lack of heavy weapons because lol old" sound like they "functioned without flaw"?
Where the hell did all the Daemon Engines come from?
When did mr "Massed infantry are the way to go" decide "Hey, I'm gonna design an artillery tank by adding some wrought iron fencing and pus to some old Arquitors"

Before they got their own codex, these aspects were all represented.
Plague Marines with Bolter, Bolt Pistol & CCW, able to be taken in huge squads
Plague Marine Havocs meant they could rely on their troops rather than armoured vehicles where AT was required
Every Death Guard is trained in the use of bolt pistols...but none of them can take one! they're limited to characters only
Hell, the Traitor Legion codex even gave them heavy weapons back! and that's without hyping death guard getting so many "new units" and giving us several flavours of Death Guard Middle Management

I've never played thousand sons or world eaters so I can't comment if a similar desecration of their lore and playstyle happened with them, but today's Death Guard are completely unrecognisable from the army I chose.

All the cult legions should use the CSM codex as a base, and only omit units if there's a damn good reason to (Death Guard explicitly don't use jump packs or bikes, for example)

It's like half the imperial armoury is equipped with bombs that go off as soon as someone questions the Emperor. all the Speeders, all the grav tech, everything Primaris just explodes the moment the chapter starts to go Renegade.

I assume it is a religious basis. The post heresy gear and the Empire as a whole is ordered. Specific types of weapons, produced in specific ways. No mixing, build to specification, even if we could make it better, we don't because of uniformisation. Chaos runs on pre heresy stuff, where technicaly there were paterns and variants, but everything was being mixed and matched. A squad could have 5 dudes with 5 technicaly identical archeotech wrist mounted plasma weapons, but only in how their functioned. The range, fuel cells, cabling etc could all be unique. Very chaotic.

So I can imagine that chaos space marines in their insanity, can't just deal with the fact that some stuff is not spiky and chaotic. And new fallen chapters probably have to destroy their stock pile of auto canons, storm bolters etc in some sort of religious ritual. Before they get replacments of combi bolters and reaper canons etc

Chaos Marines are not necessarily insane - in fact I'd say that most of them aren't, with the badly flanderised World Eaters as the most obvious exception. The religion thing does not necessarily apply either - there are traitor legions that are not especially devout like the Iron Warriors, or that actively reject the chaos gods like the Night Lords.

Charax wrote:
Before they got their own codex, these aspects were all represented.

I will say that as soon as the Death Guard got their own Codex, my Death Guard army became quite illegal.

Crispy78 wrote:
Chaos Marines are not necessarily insane - in fact I'd say that most of them aren't, with the badly flanderised World Eaters as the most obvious exception. The religion thing does not necessarily apply either - there are traitor legions that are not especially devout like the Iron Warriors, or that actively reject the chaos gods like the Night Lords.

World Eaters would be much more interesting if they were perfectly sane (to begin with) as long as the Nails were in the 'off' position... Like that one Angron book were slaughter starts and the pages are literally just covered in red for a few paragraphs, and then sanity of the POV character somewhat returns and you just see the aftermath. A couple thousand years of constant murder-amnesia and dealing with the consequences makes for much more interesting character arc than all blood, all angry, all eight all the time.

Definitely.

Have you read the First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie? There's a character rather like that, a grizzled veteran warrior trying to escape his past and be a better person, but who on occasion goes into berzerk furies (which were what made his name in the first place). He loses sense of where he is, what he's doing, and just kills - anyone, anything, whatever is in front of him; with sometimes tragic results.

It's a lot more nuanced than just "Rah! Axe! Kill! Maim! Burn!" all the time.

There is no nuance in lobotomisation or brain damage inducted aggresion. Anyone who did or does contact sports, can tell you that. Dude goes maniac mode at a moment notice and suddenly there is their family around them all dead.

It is like DG or 1ksons. There is nothing subtle about those either. One is a walking septic tank and the other is an automaton.

One of my favourite ever rules was in the 2nd edition chaos codex:
You can take equipment, wargear cards, vehicle cards, vehicles and support options from Codex:Ultramarines (the generic "LSM" codex) for an extra 50% points to represent their rarity, and take post-heresy terminators (complete with stormbolters/Powerfists) at +5 ppm

Imagine if that applied now. Want Chaos Centurions/land speeders/Razorbacks/Primaris/Whatever? Go for it! you can make whatever fluffy army you want, but you pay for it through the nose.

Want a renagade chapter with a few Chaos elements? absolutely doable. Want a veteran CSM warband which has captured some newer equipment? That's fine. Cult legion that retains some of its HH equipment? All yours!

Is it competitive? Maybe, maybe not. you're never going to win if you try a mirror-match against LSM when you're paying 50% more, but you also have access to combos they don't.
Is it fluffy? Hell yes it is
Would it make a lot of CSM players happier? Yes, yes it would.

Maybe you give CSM a discount on the extra cost, so the Cult Legions would pay a premium, while unmarked CSM have wider access to them, that seems fair

From the 3.5 CSM codex you take the Veteran Skills mechanic, where Cult units can optionally take a skill/upgrade to represent their ten thousand years of warfare, and unmarked units can take up to 2

In one fell swoop you've made a book that can represent both newly-turned renegade marines and hard-bitten warbands of elite veterans, and pretty much everything in between.

Then from the 7e Traitor Legions codex, the book so good GW ripped the galaxy in half to stop CSM getting decent rules, you take Detachment abilities, things like Word bearers being able to pick a character and give them a boon at the start of each turn, or Night Lords being able to declare a battle is taking place at night, boosting their cover saves, or Iron Warriors getting a form of Battleshock mitigation when inside a fortification

Those three changes - all of which have been tried successfully in the past, would not make for a perfect CSM/Cult legion dex, but would make it a damn sight better. Perfection would require GW to get off their "Wargear options must match what's available in the kit" kick, which isn't going to happen for the forseeable future

Thank you for coming to my TED talk

Charax wrote:

All the cult legions should use the CSM codex as a base, and only omit units if there's a damn good reason to (Death Guard explicitly don't use jump packs or bikes, for example)

Incorrect, and frankly Mortarion hasn't done anything for thousands of years so his "preference" doesn't matter whatsoever.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
No. And the different space marine chapters didn't need their own books either.

You get one page of rules and 2 pages of fluff like everybody else.

But noooooo, I can't have Black Templars unless I'm specifically given Crusader squads and nobody else because no other Chapters go on Crusades!

I really, honestly do wish Marine and CSM players would stop pretending that just being 'the ones who spend the most money on GW products' makes their subfactions special.

Factionally, there's a MUCH smaller difference between Ultramarines, Black Templar, and Space Wolves than there is between Behemouth, Leviathan, and Kraken; but we still have to cater to 'but mah wherewolfves!' and give each little clubhouse it's own book.

If that's the bar, why not give the local boyscout troupe it's own book? We could give each individual Arbite it's own book! How about Mark the fishmonger? He's not THAT much less active than the Space Wolves these days.

I literally quoted the part that says they still follow his preferences.

And fine, they don't explicitly have no jump packs, but they "gave little emphasis on specialised units using jump packs or bikes" and "The Death Guard had no dedicated Assault or Tactical squads"

ERJAK wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
No. And the different space marine chapters didn't need their own books either.

You get one page of rules and 2 pages of fluff like everybody else.

But noooooo, I can't have Black Templars unless I'm specifically given Crusader squads and nobody else because no other Chapters go on Crusades!

I really, honestly do wish Marine and CSM players would stop pretending that just being 'the ones who spend the most money on GW products' makes their subfactions special.

Factionally, there's a MUCH smaller difference between Ultramarines, Black Templar, and Space Wolves than there is between Behemouth, Leviathan, and Kraken; but we still have to cater to 'but mah wherewolfves!' and give each little clubhouse it's own book.

So much this. It's all about sellable product, and much less about the supposedly "expansive" universe.

Charax wrote:
I literally quoted the part that says they still follow his preferences.

And fine, they don't explicitly have no jump packs, but they "gave little emphasis on specialised units using jump packs or bikes" and "The Death Guard had no dedicated Assault or Tactical squads"

Therefore, there should be decent access to Jump Packs. Thanks for proving my point.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
No. And the different space marine chapters didn't need their own books either.

You get one page of rules and 2 pages of fluff like everybody else.

But noooooo, I can't have Black Templars unless I'm specifically given Crusader squads and nobody else because no other Chapters go on Crusades!

I really, honestly do wish Marine and CSM players would stop pretending that just being 'the ones who spend the most money on GW products' makes their subfactions special.

Factionally, there's a MUCH smaller difference between Ultramarines, Black Templar, and Space Wolves than there is between Behemouth, Leviathan, and Kraken; but we still have to cater to 'but mah wherewolfves!' and give each little clubhouse it's own book.

So much this. It's all about sellable product, and much less about the supposedly "expansive" universe.

GW managed to sell the idea of tradition to release multiple Marine codices so they could sell the codices themselves. Queue HMBC to say "you're saying no fun allowed!!!1!"

You want to consolidate everything. You are anti-fun.

Don't get annoyed because I'm right about you.