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Retributors go in Rhinos.
Dominions go in Immolators.
A wounded Rhino gives them a +1 to hit. A gravely wounded Rhino will give +1 to wound. It also lets two of them fire out and it never slows down. If they kill it and you lose a model and can duck behind cover then you're free to move without penalty next turn. If they don't kill it then they're facing some reliable damage.
Against 3+ a Retributor unit with a +1 to hit goes to 8.3 / 13 ( from 6.2 / 9.8 ) -- cut in half when in a rhino. // Don't forget their native RR1s to wound
And with +1 to wound as well they go to -- 10.9 / 17.1.
A Grav Dev squad does 7.5 at BS4 and 10 at BS3. And Retributors are 6.2 / 9.8 BS4 and 8.3 / 13 BS3. If Grav Devs are good....so are Retributors.
Retributors go in Rhinos.
Dominions go in Immolators.
A wounded Rhino gives them a +1 to hit. A gravely wounded Rhino will give +1 to wound. It also lets two of them fire out and it never slows down. If they kill it and you lose a model and can duck behind cover then you're free to move without penalty next turn. If they don't kill it then they're facing some reliable damage.
Against 3+ a Retributor unit with a +1 to hit goes to 8.3 / 13 ( from 6.2 / 9.8 ) -- cut in half when in a rhino. // Don't forget their native RR1s to wound
And with +1 to wound as well they go to -- 10.9 / 17.1.
A Grav Dev squad does 7.5 at BS4 and 10 at BS3. And Retributors are 6.2 / 9.8 BS4 and 8.3 / 13 BS3. If Grav Devs are good....so are Retributors.
Daedalus81 wrote: A wounded Rhino gives them a +1 to hit. A gravely wounded Rhino will give +1 to wound.
Looking at the legit AT profiles available, having just a wounded or gravely wounded Rhino is a bigger challenge than one-shotting a Land Raider with 4 unbuffed MMs.
Grav-cannons are only -1 AP so four of them works out to 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 save (vs 3+) and 7.5 damage (excluding the Cherub or 9 damage using it).
Multi-Meltas work out to 8 shots, 4 hits, 1.76 hits (factoring in Retributors re-roll 1,s), zero saves (vs 3+) and 6.18 damage outside melta range (9.7 damage inside melta range).
EDIT - maybe disembarking from a drop pod doesn't count as moving? Seems unclear to me a quick look at the core rules. That would swing things to the Grav-Cannons a fair bit, brining them up to 10 damange average without the Cherub.
You're right, I forgot the Disembarking/Heavy conflict - but the Devastators with Devastator Doctrine on the First Turn Drop Pod Alpha Strike still get more damage with -2 and OOM rerolls. 12 shots 9 hits. 8.Most-of-9 wounds, only 3 saves, 6*3 = ~18 damage - my initial unsaved to damage math worked out about the same based on how I was rounding 1/3 of 10, reroll 1's. Anti-Vehicle 2+ is just too big of a swing between them vs T10 where most of the tanks live.
Devastator Doctrine doesn't give -1AP though does it? That was 9th?
OOM certainly makes a big difference though.
Whoops, Dev + Storm of Fire. I did too much of that in my head, sorry. The point of Dev Doctrine was to get the extra -1 for Storm of Fire.
Turn 1 Alpha Strike, you're already likely doing Dev Doctrine from your Detachment ability for everyone to get advance and shoot - plus Hal is going to open the Pod Bay Doors - you have between 1 and 3 (or potentially but unlikely more) CP to spend - the Run and Gun guys should have a Captain for the freebie Strats which can duplicate Storm of Fire if necessary, but First things First, OOM the Biggest Baddest Tank you're worried about, If you have Bobby G, essentially but not quite OOM a secondary target) land the pod(s), Run everyone else you want to, Storm of Fire the Devs, Alpha the biggest baddest tank you're worried about, If you have G, Alpha the second biggest baddest thing you're worried about. Shoot the rest of your Free Repeat Strat Shots at priority or opportunity targets as available. Anyone think that isn't going to be a fairly standard first SM turn? For the life if me I can't find the datasheet for the new Lieutenant. I'm pretty sure I've seen it but I can't remember where. I think he couldn't lead, was always a lone operative and had an Aura, but I can't remember where I saw that IF I saw that.
Edit: Found it - they changed his name from Phobos Lieutenant to Lieutenant with Combi-weapon and he's nowhere near all the other LT's - He is Lone Operative, Infiltrate and Stealth - he has a designate an objective to reroll 1's to wound. So its not a second Storm of Fire, but it does help if you can't double OOM.
Ok, I've seen a lot of confused math and assumptions being thrown around. Lets approach this with a more structured analysis:
Let's assume 2 targets: Medium vehicle T9 3+ and heavy vehicle T11 2+
The marines use a CP which the sisters have no use for in this scenario, so I will balance it with 3 extra damage which is the average of a CP using the grenade strat as a reference (which the retributors could actually use in the short range scenario). I will not consider the inferno pistol in this scenario.
OotM will not be used because only 5 targets per game have that bonus, so it cannot be considered. To compensate for this, no miracle dices will be used, even if retributors actually come with 2 free miracles.
On medium vehicle the 12 grav attacks inflict: 12*1/2*5/6*2/3*3= 10 using a CP On a medium vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/2*7/6*3.5 = 8,16 which becomes 11,16 using a CP On a medium vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/2*7/6*5.5 = 12,83 which becomes 15,83 using a CP
The result here is quite clear. They multimeltas are more poweful at max range and impossibly more good at short range.
On a heavy vehicle the 12 grav attacks inflict: 12*1/2*5/6*1/2*3= 7,5 using a CP On a heavy vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/3*7/6*5/6*3.5 = 4,5 which becomes 7,5 using a CP On a heavy vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/3*7/6*5/6*5.5 = 7 which becomes 10 using a CP
The multimeltas have the same damage at long range and significantly more at short range.
Notes to this analysis:
1) I know that many will say "You can't assume 3 damage for a CP". Well, you do. People have to get used to the fact that in 10th CPs are very important resources. You can't compare 2 outputs if one uses a CP and the other one doesn't. 2CPs are a full unit back on the field in 10th. Let that sink in.
3 damage offset is actually very generous to SM in this analysis. You can repeat the math without the SM using the CP and without the sisters adding 3 damage. The results are the same on both targets.
2) This analysis is against vehicles, but against monsters the results would utterly dumpster the SM player. Out of the 2 I know which weapon I would select as an anti heavy target role, even solely for this reason.
Conclusion: Multimeltas are better anti tank than gravs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: Very true. I would hope the cost of a MM goes down a bit.
They are most likely free and embedded in the unit cost. Same for devs. You can see that they have been trying to make all weapon choices equivalent in value.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/15 15:41:27
AtoMaki wrote: Looking at the legit AT profiles available, having just a wounded or gravely wounded Rhino is a bigger challenge than one-shotting a Land Raider with 4 unbuffed MMs.
Not really a goal, but a consequence of failing to succeed. The whole Sisters thing is a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Kill the rhino and give them a MD and ( if they're in a good position ) let the Retributors slip away into cover with a 60% chance for them to lose a model, which will make them more effective. Or let it live and have only two MM dropping shots from the Rhino.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spoletta wrote: They are most likely free and embedded in the unit cost. Same for devs. You can see that they have been trying to make all weapon choices equivalent in value.
I'm somewhat terrified of free upgrades, because it could easily go south on some of these units.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/06/15 15:43:53
alextroy wrote: The point of Rhinos and Immolators is to give movement and durability to your slow + low range glass(meaning fragile) canon army. They get you to where you need to be and soak the damage until you decide to disembark. Firing Deck on the Rhino is gravy.
How is the Immolator going to help with The Blood of Martyrs? And in general, even if Sisters vehicles will be actually dirt cheap enough(which goes a bit into the becoming a Horde army direction i've mentioned in my first post in this thread) to be the solution for multiple glaring issues of the army, that together with the several pretty much mandatory characters still runs into the danger of getting mega-punished by certain secondaries.
I meant to include the summary from goonhammmer reviewing them, which is rarely that far off the mark:
General Unit Thoughts
With the boosts to Miracle Dice generation, some crazy combos, and just really good units, this army looks primed to actually do some damage in 10th edition. One of the problems I forsee is trying to figure out what Leaders to attach to what units, there is so many options that it can be a little daunting. I will say though, that is a good problem to have, that means this army has a bunch of good options.
Wrap Up
That’s it for the Sisters – overall, we’re pretty happy with where they are in 10th, with some straightforwardly good and useful abilities plus a range of helpful tricks which add a little more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/15 18:55:30
I'm getting 2 distinct vibes. 1 group is, okay, you can do this, this and this, there are options. And the other is fingers plugging their ears, saying lalala i can't hear you everything is terrible.
cody.d. wrote: I'm getting 2 distinct vibes. 1 group is, okay, you can do this, this and this, there are options. And the other is fingers plugging their ears, saying lalala i can't hear you everything is terrible.
I'm also getting two distinct vibes:
One group mostly consisting of non-Sisters players says, everything is fine because you can jump through several hoops to do basic gak, here just look at how this Goonhammer article hypes up hot air, etc...
And the other group are most of the Sisters players(at least the ones who actually like to play competetively here and there).....
Grav-cannons are only -1 AP so four of them works out to 12 shots, 6 hits, 5 wounds, 2.5 save (vs 3+) and 7.5 damage (excluding the Cherub or 9 damage using it).
Multi-Meltas work out to 8 shots, 4 hits, 1.76 hits (factoring in Retributors re-roll 1,s), zero saves (vs 3+) and 6.18 damage outside melta range (9.7 damage inside melta range).
EDIT - maybe disembarking from a drop pod doesn't count as moving? Seems unclear to me a quick look at the core rules. That would swing things to the Grav-Cannons a fair bit, brining them up to 10 damange average without the Cherub.
You're right, I forgot the Disembarking/Heavy conflict - but the Devastators with Devastator Doctrine on the First Turn Drop Pod Alpha Strike still get more damage with -2 and OOM rerolls. 12 shots 9 hits. 8.Most-of-9 wounds, only 3 saves, 6*3 = ~18 damage - my initial unsaved to damage math worked out about the same based on how I was rounding 1/3 of 10, reroll 1's. Anti-Vehicle 2+ is just too big of a swing between them vs T10 where most of the tanks live.
Devastator Doctrine doesn't give -1AP though does it? That was 9th?
OOM certainly makes a big difference though.
Whoops, Dev + Storm of Fire. I did too much of that in my head, sorry. The point of Dev Doctrine was to get the extra -1 for Storm of Fire.
Turn 1 Alpha Strike, you're already likely doing Dev Doctrine from your Detachment ability for everyone to get advance and shoot - plus Hal is going to open the Pod Bay Doors - you have between 1 and 3 (or potentially but unlikely more) CP to spend - the Run and Gun guys should have a Captain for the freebie Strats which can duplicate Storm of Fire if necessary, but First things First, OOM the Biggest Baddest Tank you're worried about, If you have Bobby G, essentially but not quite OOM a secondary target) land the pod(s), Run everyone else you want to, Storm of Fire the Devs, Alpha the biggest baddest tank you're worried about, If you have G, Alpha the second biggest baddest thing you're worried about. Shoot the rest of your Free Repeat Strat Shots at priority or opportunity targets as available. Anyone think that isn't going to be a fairly standard first SM turn? For the life if me I can't find the datasheet for the new Lieutenant. I'm pretty sure I've seen it but I can't remember where. I think he couldn't lead, was always a lone operative and had an Aura, but I can't remember where I saw that IF I saw that.
Edit: Found it - they changed his name from Phobos Lieutenant to Lieutenant with Combi-weapon and he's nowhere near all the other LT's - He is Lone Operative, Infiltrate and Stealth - he has a designate an objective to reroll 1's to wound. So its not a second Storm of Fire, but it does help if you can't double OOM.
Ok, I've seen a lot of confused math and assumptions being thrown around. Lets approach this with a more structured analysis:
Let's assume 2 targets: Medium vehicle T9 3+ and heavy vehicle T11 2+
The marines use a CP which the sisters have no use for in this scenario, so I will balance it with 3 extra damage which is the average of a CP using the grenade strat as a reference (which the retributors could actually use in the short range scenario). I will not consider the inferno pistol in this scenario.
OotM will not be used because only 5 targets per game have that bonus, so it cannot be considered. To compensate for this, no miracle dices will be used, even if retributors actually come with 2 free miracles.
On medium vehicle the 12 grav attacks inflict: 12*1/2*5/6*2/3*3= 10 using a CP On a medium vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/2*7/6*3.5 = 8,16 which becomes 11,16 using a CP On a medium vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/2*7/6*5.5 = 12,83 which becomes 15,83 using a CP
The result here is quite clear. They multimeltas are more poweful at max range and impossibly more good at short range.
On a heavy vehicle the 12 grav attacks inflict: 12*1/2*5/6*1/2*3= 7,5 using a CP On a heavy vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/3*7/6*5/6*3.5 = 4,5 which becomes 7,5 using a CP On a heavy vehicle the 4 multimelta at long range inflict: 8*1/2*1/3*7/6*5/6*5.5 = 7 which becomes 10 using a CP
The multimeltas have the same damage at long range and significantly more at short range.
Notes to this analysis:
1) I know that many will say "You can't assume 3 damage for a CP". Well, you do. People have to get used to the fact that in 10th CPs are very important resources. You can't compare 2 outputs if one uses a CP and the other one doesn't. 2CPs are a full unit back on the field in 10th. Let that sink in.
3 damage offset is actually very generous to SM in this analysis. You can repeat the math without the SM using the CP and without the sisters adding 3 damage. The results are the same on both targets.
2) This analysis is against vehicles, but against monsters the results would utterly dumpster the SM player. Out of the 2 I know which weapon I would select as an anti heavy target role, even solely for this reason.
Conclusion: Multimeltas are better anti tank than gravs.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daedalus81 wrote: Very true. I would hope the cost of a MM goes down a bit.
They are most likely free and embedded in the unit cost. Same for devs. You can see that they have been trying to make all weapon choices equivalent in value.
I have to wonder what good AT looks like in 10th Edition 40K. For example, the Exorcist Missile Launcher is pretty descent light/medium AT when not targeting 2+ Save targets in my opinion:
T 6-9, Sv 3+: Average Damage 5.7 (7.13 when Stationary)
T 10, Sv 3+: Average Damage 4.28 (5.35 when Stationary)
T 11-19, Sv 2+: Average Damage 2.14 (2.67 when Stationary)
Compare that to a 4 Lascannon Devestator Squad:
T 7-11, Sv 3+: Average Damage 5.00 (6.67 when Stationary)
T 7-11, Sv 2+: Average Damage 4.00 (5.33 when Stationary)
T 12, Sv 3+: Average Damage 3.75 (5.00 when Stationary)
T 13-23, Sv 2+: Average Damage 2.00 (2.67 when Stationary)
Yes, you will get more killing power out of Multi-Meltas, but they need to be close.
gunchar wrote: One group mostly consisting of non-Sisters players says, everything is fine because you can jump through several hoops to do basic gak, here just look at how this Goonhammer article hypes up hot air, etc...
I think it should be noted that all Sisters and non-Sisters players are on the same number of games for 10th : zero.
cody.d. wrote: I'm getting 2 distinct vibes. 1 group is, okay, you can do this, this and this, there are options. And the other is fingers plugging their ears, saying lalala i can't hear you everything is terrible.
I'm also getting two distinct vibes:
One group mostly consisting of non-Sisters players says, everything is fine because you can jump through several hoops to do basic gak, here just look at how this Goonhammer article hypes up hot air, etc...
And the other group are most of the Sisters players(at least the ones who actually like to play competetively here and there).....
Not sure who is referencing goonhammer articles. And yes, "Jumping through several hoops to do basic gak" or you know, stacking buffs is what everyone has to do. Very few units/factions can just delete tanks nowdays.
And saying "your not a real sister's player cause you don't agree with me" is a terrible argument.
No unit works in a vacuum in 10th. Sisters have a decent toolbox that's the long and short of it.
H.B.M.C. wrote: We have the rules. We can make inferences from the rules. It has been this way for decades.
So why are high-level tournament players saying that Sisters look competitive? The only faction that I've seen a lot of concern about from the previews is that anything Nurgle-related seems a bit under-tuned. For everything else, there are combos that seem to provide tons of value and/or solve issues your army might have.
If Sisters get the right points values they will be fine. If not, hopefully GW is swift with the points updates.
Even Custodes. CUSTODES, have trouble deleting tanks. All our AT options are now inferior to just praying for 6's on mass cheap shooting. Our Axes are barely scratching anything remotely like a tank on a 4+, and our missile bikes might get 3-4 shots off, 1W getting through. Praying our FW stuff isn't nerfed into scrap, because that's all we have left. Right now Space Marines have better melee potential...
H.B.M.C. wrote: We have the rules. We can make inferences from the rules. It has been this way for decades.
So why are high-level tournament players saying that Sisters look competitive? The only faction that I've seen a lot of concern about from the previews is that anything Nurgle-related seems a bit under-tuned. For everything else, there are combos that seem to provide tons of value and/or solve issues your army might have.
If Sisters get the right points values they will be fine. If not, hopefully GW is swift with the points updates.
I wouldn't take Goonhammers opinion on it either. We're not going to really understand until we play enough missions.
H.B.M.C. wrote: We have the rules. We can make inferences from the rules. It has been this way for decades.
So why are high-level tournament players saying that Sisters look competitive? The only faction that I've seen a lot of concern about from the previews is that anything Nurgle-related seems a bit under-tuned. For everything else, there are combos that seem to provide tons of value and/or solve issues your army might have.
If Sisters get the right points values they will be fine. If not, hopefully GW is swift with the points updates.
I wouldn't take Goonhammers opinion on it either. We're not going to really understand until we play enough missions.
I'm talking about Art of War 40k, I haven't been following the Goonhammer stuff as closely this time around.
Let's assume 2 targets: Medium vehicle T9 3+ and heavy vehicle T11 2+
How many big vehicles are 2+? I picked the Repulsor over the Land Raider because it was still 3+ - and only mentioned the 2+ Vindicator because that was pretty much THE line (Rhinos and Preds popped, Vinidcator barely did not) for Average 1 Turn from Sisters Melta.
The marines use a CP which the sisters have no use for in this scenario, so I will balance it with 3 extra damage which is the average of a CP using the grenade strat as a reference (which the retributors could actually use in the short range scenario). I will not consider the inferno pistol in this scenario.
OotM will not be used because only 5 targets per game have that bonus, so it cannot be considered. To compensate for this, no miracle dices will be used, even if retributors actually come with 2 free miracles.
Sisters have no comparable CP usage - this is another ding for Sisters - not something to be handwaved with bonus Damage they have no access to. And why exactly wouldn't a Marine Player use OOM against the target he's landing a Drop Pod Bomb on? Its turn 1, you're aiming at the biggest baddest vehicle on the table - that OOM+ Discs can be front loaded while Miracle Dice are far more likely to be back loaded is another ding against Sisters that matters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/16 03:19:01
alextroy wrote: I have to wonder what good AT looks like in 10th Edition 40K.
Well, the Gladiator Lancer just kinda one-taps everything while being completely unsupported too. 2 shots, 2+ hit (you can re-roll one), 3+ wound (you can re-roll one), then 2x D6+3 damage (you can re-roll one).
alextroy wrote: I have to wonder what good AT looks like in 10th Edition 40K.
Well, the Gladiator Lancer just kinda one-taps everything while being completely unsupported too. 2 shots, 2+ hit (you can re-roll one), 3+ wound (you can re-roll one), then 2x D6+3 damage (you can re-roll one).
as far as Good Anti Tank which I'd take to mean better than median but less than gread: Yeah I'd put the Lancer, the Vindicator, The Repulsor Executioner in the "good" Anti Tank. Maybe the Predator Anhilator. Eldar Support Weapons with a D-Cannon, MAYBE the Vanquisher, the Demolisher, maybe the Rogal Dorn, Potentially Sentinels, probably Armiger Warglaives, Obviously most of the big Knights that are probably better than just "good" - Probably a full unit of Broadsides.Maybe the Hammerhead (yeah it's got the railgun, but its one shot per turn, and more of an "eye candy" for the S20 than reliable damage production than these other units that can more consistently pound T12, 15ish wounds) which brings us to the Sky Ray Gunship which is better but on the Maybe edge. The Stormsurge is better than good, but its knight adjacent. Nightbringer shard (may be better than just Good - hard to find that line) - the void dragon, Doomsday Ark is probably too good to be medium, but not good enough to be "good". Lokhust Heavy Destroyers are good. Doomstalker not quite. Doomscythe may be better than good, Monolith is probably not good, Deff Koptas are a maybe: BS 5+ S9 vs a zillion shots is hard to tell - Ghaz in melee is easily Good, and probably better than good. Gorkanaught is good. Meganobz probably. 3 Mekgunz with KMK? Maybe to probably always HAZARDOUS though... Morkanaught, sure. Stompa? Definitely. Almost definitely better than good too. Of course its also Knight+. Tank Bustas probably, but again always HAZARDOUS,
Dudeface wrote: I meant to include the summary from goonhammmer reviewing them, which is rarely that far off the mark:
General Unit Thoughts
With the boosts to Miracle Dice generation, some crazy combos, and just really good units, this army looks primed to actually do some damage in 10th edition. One of the problems I forsee is trying to figure out what Leaders to attach to what units, there is so many options that it can be a little daunting. I will say though, that is a good problem to have, that means this army has a bunch of good options.
Wrap Up
That’s it for the Sisters – overall, we’re pretty happy with where they are in 10th, with some straightforwardly good and useful abilities plus a range of helpful tricks which add a little more.
Hmm, my reply got apparently deleted cause of the meme, so here again without meme:
That whole article really reads less like a review and more like a presentatation by GW itself, spiced up with some hot air(like the nonsense about the allegedly crazy amount of leader options for example) and an overreliance on the word cool, and i'm not sure who they mean with "we're pretty happy" but definitely not Sisters players considering how very unhappy many of these were(and the Ad Mech article seems to be quite controversial as well, even though apparently to a lesser degree) with this article, this here was the most friendly but still fitting description of it i've seen:
It's wild seeing most Sisters players either generally disappointed or cautiously optimistic about certain possibilities based on how the points go and these guys going "YUP ARMY IS AMAZING!!"
It's an impressive disconnect.
Oh yeah, and i couldn't even write a simple sentence under that article, cause it's moderated and didn't work for some reason.
gunchar wrote: One group mostly consisting of non-Sisters players says, everything is fine because you can jump through several hoops to do basic gak, here just look at how this Goonhammer article hypes up hot air, etc...
I think it should be noted that all Sisters and non-Sisters players are on the same number of games for 10th : zero.
WH40K is no sorcery, and unlike players of other fraction Sisters players should have some more in-depth experience with + knowledge of the army, and better know what works in it, saying we don't know points yet would be fair(even though Sisters clearly were not a pretty much Horde army before), but what some non-Sisters players in this thread do is straight up gaslighting. Although some probably just genuinly don't know what they're even talking about, like:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ah, the sweet tears of the people who spent most of 9th being one of the more broken wombo combos in the game, suddenly not being OP anymore.
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in OPness and were suddenly silenced."
I'm kinda glad sisters can't just rock up to a knight and one shot it with miracle dice anymore. It's almost.....balanced.
The straight up overrated(especially by Art of War, who simply continued to pretend Necrons and Sisters would be the two top armies fighting for first place, even after week for week reality + the actual statistics disagreed with them) actual Nephelim combo was Bloody Rose + Armor of Contempt + broken secondaries, in Arks of Omen with still Bloody Rose but no Armor of Contempt and less broken secondaries Sisters fell down hard, and even left GW's "goldielocks" zone"(45-55%) to below 45% multiple times. So now taking away Bloody Rose and replacing it with a somewhat juiced up absolutely not competetive Order, taking away all the most effective anti-tank options, drastically restricting aura combos, etc... is not balance but pretty much the exact opposite of that.
Not sure who is referencing goonhammer articles. And yes, "Jumping through several hoops to do basic gak" or you know, stacking buffs is what everyone has to do. Very few units/factions can just delete tanks nowdays.
Sisters aren't deleting tanks by stacking buffs, they just might have a chance to take out one or two big tanks by stacking multiple way too often easily disruptable/not very flexible buffs/avoidable combos, except they actually became dirt cheap now.
cody.d. wrote: And saying "your not a real sister's player cause you don't agree with me" is a terrible argument.
Are you a Sisters player, and when exactly did i even say anything about people not being real Sisters players? You really shouldn't build strawmans...
cody.d. wrote: No unit works in a vacuum in 10th. Sisters have a decent toolbox that's the long and short of it.
Sisters absolutely don't have a decent toolbox against anything that's really tough in that Index, they just might be cheap enough to make up for that glaring flaw.
And i will generally repeat the most important point here again:
Sisters are a slow + low range glass(meaning fragile) canon army.
, they desperately need to do far above average dmg, or else they straight up don't function.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/06/16 09:51:46
Dudeface wrote: I meant to include the summary from goonhammmer reviewing them, which is rarely that far off the mark:
General Unit Thoughts
With the boosts to Miracle Dice generation, some crazy combos, and just really good units, this army looks primed to actually do some damage in 10th edition. One of the problems I forsee is trying to figure out what Leaders to attach to what units, there is so many options that it can be a little daunting. I will say though, that is a good problem to have, that means this army has a bunch of good options.
Wrap Up
That’s it for the Sisters – overall, we’re pretty happy with where they are in 10th, with some straightforwardly good and useful abilities plus a range of helpful tricks which add a little more.
Hmm, my reply got apparently deleted cause of the meme, so here again without meme:
That whole article really reads less like a review and more like a presentatation by GW itself, spiced up with some hot air(like the nonsense about the allegedly crazy amount of leader options for example) and an overreliance on the word cool, and i'm not sure who they mean with "we're pretty happy" but definitely not Sisters players considering how very unhappy many of these were(and the Ad Mech article seems to be quite controversial as well, even though apparently to a lesser degree) with this article, this here was the most friendly but still fitting description of it i've seen:
It's wild seeing most Sisters players either generally disappointed or cautiously optimistic about certain possibilities based on how the points go and these guys going "YUP ARMY IS AMAZING!!"
It's an impressive disconnect.
Oh yeah, and i couldn't even write a simple sentence under that article, cause it's moderated and didn't work for some reason.
gunchar wrote: One group mostly consisting of non-Sisters players says, everything is fine because you can jump through several hoops to do basic gak, here just look at how this Goonhammer article hypes up hot air, etc...
I think it should be noted that all Sisters and non-Sisters players are on the same number of games for 10th : zero.
WH40K is no sorcery, and unlike players of other fraction Sisters players should have some more in-depth experience with + knowledge of the army, and better know what works in it, saying we don't know points yet would be fair(even though Sisters clearly were not a pretty much Horde army before), but what some non-Sisters players in this thread do is straight up gaslighting. Although some probably just genuinly don't know what their even talking about, like:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Ah, the sweet tears of the people who spent most of 9th being one of the more broken wombo combos in the game, suddenly not being OP anymore.
"I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in OPness and were suddenly silenced."
I'm kinda glad sisters can't just rock up to a knight and one shot it with miracle dice anymore. It's almost.....balanced.
The straight up overrated(especially by Art of War, who simply continued to pretend Necrons and Sisters would be the two top armies fighting for first place, even after week for week reality + the actual statistics disagreed with them) actual Nephelim combo was Bloody Rose + Armor of Contempt + broken secondaries, in Arks of Omen with still Bloody Rose but no Armor of Contempt and less broken secondaries Sisters fell down hard, and even left GW's "goldielocks" zone"(45-55%) to below 45% multiple times. So now taking away Bloody Rose and replacing it with a somewhat juiced up absolutely not competetive Order, taking away all the most effective anti-tank options, drastically restricting aura combos, etc... is not balance but pretty much the exact opposite of that.
Not sure who is referencing goonhammer articles. And yes, "Jumping through several hoops to do basic gak" or you know, stacking buffs is what everyone has to do. Very few units/factions can just delete tanks nowdays.
Sisters aren't deleting tanks by stacking buffs, they just might have a chance to take out one or two big tanks by stacking multiple way too often easily disruptable/not very flexible buffs/avoidable combos, except they actually became dirt cheap now.
cody.d. wrote: And saying "your not a real sister's player cause you don't agree with me" is a terrible argument.
Are you a Sisters player, and when exactly did i even say anything about people not being real Sisters players? You really shouldn't build strawmans...
cody.d. wrote: No unit works in a vacuum in 10th. Sisters have a decent toolbox that's the long and short of it.
Sisters absolutely don't have a decent toolbox against anything that's really tough in that Index, they just might be cheap enough to make up for that glaring flaw.
And i will generally repeat the most important point here again:
Sisters are a slow + low range glass(meaning fragile) canon army.
, they desperately need to do far above average dmg, or else they straight up don't function.
You can just admit you're bad and lack the skill to play the new index. It's a better look than disagreeing with the people who literally play the game for a living and who generally do very well at tournaments.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/06/16 20:40:07
cody.d. wrote: Durabilty for sisters has also gone up, a character gives 4++, medics give FNP and you can tank wounds on a character and heal 3 back a turn. And each character can be rezed with a stratagem.
A unit of retrubutors hopping out of an immolator also feel like they'd do a number on many tanks.
Also, I'm assuming melta went up to 9 so you don't have to wound the big T16 stuff like stompas on 6s.
a 4++ is useless on a Guardsman even more usless on a Sister. Medics have always given a FNP.
You can just admit you're bad and lack the skill to play the new index. It's a better look than disagreeing with the people who literally play the game for a living and who generally do very well at tournaments.
If doing something 'for a living' makes you unquestionably superior at it, then explain why GW's rules are so often error ridden...
14000 points 
