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Maybe give them an army wide shot/hit back on death? The way they are pointed and with the weapon load outs they have, it wouldn't be too powerful. comparing to lets say GSC respawning whole armies.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

gunchar wrote:
Why, they are supposed to be comicbook peak human style aka actually superhuman Faith witches according to the lore, and would be actually between guardsmen and Space Marines(which was the whole point of Sisters) with that simple change?

They're not gene-crafted super-humans.

Right, they're natural comicbook peak human styled superhuman with magic in Power Armor.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marines getting 2 wounds to separate them from the "chaff" of humanity makes far more sense than Sisters getting it.

Why, if you can actually go through the Power Armor and hit a lethal point of the Space Marine inside it should kill him(except maybe you very specifiically just hit one of the hearts, ignoring how little sense that whole concept actually makes) just like it kills a Sister, did i miss that they have Wolverine style regeneration or why exactly should it make any sense that you pretty much need to kill a Space Marine twice?

It makes actually sense that Space Marines have higher toughness and strength, but pretty much giving them two lives is just an arbitrary gameplay mechanic to better seperate them from the "chaff" of humanity, one they could also use to better seperate Sisters from the "chaff" off humanity and have less trouble with balancing them as a step in-between guardsmen and Space Marines.

Boosykes wrote:
These are rgular humans why would thy have t4

Who talked about T4?

Boosykes wrote:
These are rgular humans why would thy have 2 wounds?

Cause they're in the lore almost as much "regular humans" as Batman is, which also didn't stop him from dodging bullets and kicking trees in half for example, hell there is with Sly Marbo even someone in the lore who shows that being a "regular human" has absolutely no meaning at all(and i'm not even talking about straight up superhero Sisters like Ephrael Stern here, Mark of Faith for example shows that you need to go through superhuman lvl training even without Power Armor to become a Sister in the first place). And more importantly, cause the 2 wounds are unlike the toughness just an arbitrary gameplay mechanic anyway.

Boosykes wrote:
And if thy got that then what should skitarii have? As they are actual cyborgs?

You do realize that Sororitas Power Armor also aren't just decoration, right?

Boosykes wrote:
What about orks?

They are a horde army, while Sisters are clearly not.

Boosykes wrote:
If sister went 2 wounds almost everything else would need to also.

Based on?

But just to be clear here, giving the normal infantry units 2 wounds wouldn't actually fix 10th Edition Sisters right now, i just strongly disagree with the idea that it would be any more logical(it's anyways a good rule of thumb that almost nothing regarding Space Marines is actually based on logic) that Space Marine have somehow pretty much two lives.

So your argument is basically becuse you want them to have 2 wounds. Ya not a good argument.

As you said space marines have 2 hearts and they do actually have near wolverine levels of healing. Along with like 20 extra organs.

Sly is a character obviously they have more wounds plot armor so to speak.

Ya I don't see it happening. Feel free to tag me with an I told you so if it dose.

2 wound sisters isn’t happening
T4 sisters isn’t happening

You guys can argue all you want, but the above isn’t changing.

3+ armour save is still decent, but 6+ invuln is practically worthless in a less AP environment. Never going to come up with weapons that are targeting sisters. That needs to be changed to 6+ FNP army wide. Now if there are other models/characters that interacts with this mechanic, change them too.
Remember that 9th edition intro video? Her faith didn’t stop the necron weapon wounding her, it allowed her to heal the wound (I know fluff vs rules). Still, a FNP fits better than an invuln.

Because giving them an extra attack and wound (plus a usable WS for normal sisters squads) isn’t that big a deal. They’d still be a lot worse than any marine units. I mean the old Celestians before they got randomly scrapped had the WS and Attacks for a few extra points and that did not break the game. Nobody called foul over Sisters having 2 attacks and WS3 plus then.

Let me put this another way.

Should Sisters of Battle be able to kill Genestealer Cultists or Chaos Cultists in close combat?

Bearing in mind how they’re wrote about in lore and in CGI trailers where they’re curb stomping Necrons. A single attack model that hits on 4 plus and cannot wound anything is a terrible unit. Not power armoured shock troops who should be killing, you know, actual “chaff” which you can auto-regenerate apparently. If you can’t kill your opponents free units that’s a problem.

Like, if ten Sisters of Battle charge a Genecult Neophtye squad, that squad should be utterly outclassed and wiped out. It shouldn’t be a case that “ohh well half my attacks will miss and then half fail to wound so I am just chipping away at them; I’ll just hang back for my turn to shoot.” Yeah, best equipment the Imperium has to offer…

That’s why the profile needs to be looked at. Because marines have went up other armies are having their profiles boosted to compensate like Orks being able to ignore two out of three bolt shells that hit them. Again, they should never have let damage run away and should have dropped those profiles for those armies. But until they do that the Sisters profile doesn’t reflect the army.

I cannot begin to describe how much the statline of the basic battle sister doesn't matter.

The issue with the army is, as I've stated before, that NONE OF THE UNITS DO ANYTHING.

Dominions, Retributors, and Sacresants basically don't have a datasheet rule. Dominions reroll advances is completely pointless, especially in an army that has miracle dice. Retributors reroll 1s to wound is generally negated by the buffs you give them (unlimited 6s/Immolator rerolls), and Sacresants -1 to wound requires you to take either a Canoness, who is the worst character to combine them with, or Junith Eruita, who immediately locks the squad into being backline objective camping.

If Dominions had Sustained hits 1, that would at least make 2 of their builds more useful. Especially combine with the Palatines Lethal Hits. Flamers would still be bad, but those have always been bad.

Retributors, I think you give Reroll hits of 1/Reroll # of shots. If they can't take a canoness, you can't have BOTH rolls require miracle dice to have a reasonable number of successes. Reroll shots is just for parity.

Sacresants: Improve both weapons AP by 1, make them a 2+ save. Make them -1 to wound regardless of the characters attached, let them double up with a Canoness+Support character.

Novitiates don't have enough attacks to be a melee horde killer, and all of their upgrades force you to give up what little melee they have. Their datasheet rule also conflicts with their best character buff (missionary). I think you give them reroll 1s to wound (no full rerolls) and +1 attack for characters with the sword. They're slightly less good with a palatine but should be extremely strong with a missionary.

Castigator: Make the battlecannon AP-2 so it's at least somewhat better at killing tough targets than the autocannon is.

Repentia: Either let me attach a preacher or make them a bit cheaper.

Zephyrim, I'd like to see either sustained hits added to the sword, or an extra point of AP. Or a price drop. They're pretty close to where they need to be.

Paragons: People get confused by Paragons because they think they're sisters dreadnoughts. They're not, they're sisters terminators. Price them closer to THAT.

Finally, change Hallowed Martyrs so that you get the +1 to wound bonus AT or below half of starting strength.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Because giving them an extra attack and wound (plus a usable WS for normal sisters squads) isn’t that big a deal. They’d still be a lot worse than any marine units. I mean the old Celestians before they got randomly scrapped had the WS and Attacks for a few extra points and that did not break the game. Nobody called foul over Sisters having 2 attacks and WS3 plus then.

Let me put this another way.

Should Sisters of Battle be able to kill Genestealer Cultists or Chaos Cultists in close combat?

Bearing in mind how they’re wrote about in lore and in CGI trailers where they’re curb stomping Necrons. A single attack model that hits on 4 plus and cannot wound anything is a terrible unit. Not power armoured shock troops who should be killing, you know, actual “chaff” which you can auto-regenerate apparently. If you can’t kill your opponents free units that’s a problem.

Like, if ten Sisters of Battle charge a Genecult Neophtye squad, that squad should be utterly outclassed and wiped out. It shouldn’t be a case that “ohh well half my attacks will miss and then half fail to wound so I am just chipping away at them; I’ll just hang back for my turn to shoot.” Yeah, best equipment the Imperium has to offer…

That’s why the profile needs to be looked at. Because marines have went up other armies are having their profiles boosted to compensate like Orks being able to ignore two out of three bolt shells that hit them. Again, they should never have let damage run away and should have dropped those profiles for those armies. But until they do that the Sisters profile doesn’t reflect the army.

To be blunt, Necron Warriors have been devalued so much compared to other factions' basic troopers it's sad. They should be the equal of Astartes; the fact that they're not is just marine spank to the nth degree.

Sororitas used to have T4 in previous editions, though, that I could see making a comeback.

 Jidmah wrote:


Single model units need higher toughness to be able to survive a game where no rules prevent you from shooting them straight away. That's why the shirtless beastboss on squigosaur is T10 while Ghazgkhull Thrakka is T6.

It's not Abaddon whose toughness is too low, Gulliman merely has an artificially inflated toughness so it actually takes more effort to kill him than a few suicidal meltas or a single plane, there is no fluff reasoning behind it.

Primarchs are consistently written to be able to kill greater daemons and other equivalent monsters, and even using just their own physical strength and toughness. Fulgrim has shattered the neck of an Avatar of Khaine, Sanguinius has snapped the spine of a Bloodthirster over his knee after surviving its heavy axe swings.

If anything T9 undersells the toughness of a primarch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:


To be blunt, Necron Warriors have been devalued so much compared to other factions' basic troopers it's sad. They should be the equal of Astartes; the fact that they're not is just marine spank to the nth degree.

There are more Necron Warriors in a single Tomb World than there are Astartes in the galaxy.

They're a beefy chaff unit, like Orks but better-equipped. They have always been portrayed as a silver tide that outnumbers Marines in any given battlefield.

Please continue whining about Marines in every post though.

Fluff discussion would be off topic in this thread if it was SISTERS fluff, let alone a pissing match between marines and necrons.

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:


To be blunt, Necron Warriors have been devalued so much compared to other factions' basic troopers it's sad. They should be the equal of Astartes; the fact that they're not is just marine spank to the nth degree.

There are more Necron Warriors in a single Tomb World than there are Astartes in the galaxy.

They're a beefy chaff unit, like Orks but better-equipped. They have always been portrayed as a silver tide that outnumbers Marines in any given battlefield.

Please continue whining about Marines in every post though.

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

ccs wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:


To be blunt, Necron Warriors have been devalued so much compared to other factions' basic troopers it's sad. They should be the equal of Astartes; the fact that they're not is just marine spank to the nth degree.

There are more Necron Warriors in a single Tomb World than there are Astartes in the galaxy.

They're a beefy chaff unit, like Orks but better-equipped. They have always been portrayed as a silver tide that outnumbers Marines in any given battlefield.

Please continue whining about Marines in every post though.

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Exactly. Also, there are more Leman Russ tanks than there are Astartes in the galaxy. Quality is not inversely correlated with quality.

But yeah, I'd be ok with T4 sororitas. If orks can be t5 they can be t4.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Right, so the paradigm is that if Sisters need to be 2W for balance reasons, so be it. Of course, I agree that this would cause all sorts of other cascading issues, but that's a separate topic.

Not really, the paradigm is that Abaddon and Thrakka feel sufficiently durable with their relatively low toughess as part of a bodyguard units, while squigboss, daemon princes and loyalist primarchs do not.

An extra wound would change their interaction with the game to something completely different. T4 sisters with some other durability ability like FNP or an invul added on top? Sure, why not.
Dedicated anti-infantry weapons being inefficient at killing them and overcharging plasma to kill a basic sister? Nope.

I actually like the idea of FNP Sisters - the light of the Emperor saving them from certain doom type stuff.

ccs wrote:
They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Ok, and? Necron Warriors have existed in their current state for longer than they were ever what they were in 2nd Ed. It'd be like getting annoyed because Marines aren't T3 ex-criminals anymore like they were back in the RT days.

And 2nd Ed ended almost 25 years ago.

ccs wrote:

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Can you show me a single piece of lore that shows Necrons not massively outnumbering Marines on the battlefield?

I don't give a single gak about points and gameplay by the way. The Necrons of old were simply pointed and statted wrong. The current portrayal is far closer to lore accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

Exactly. Also, there are more Leman Russ tanks than there are Astartes in the galaxy. Quality is not inversely correlated with quality.

But yeah, I'd be ok with T4 sororitas. If orks can be t5 they can be t4.

Kind of an idiotic comparison given that a Leman Russ is a big fatass tank that is only good for being a big fatass tank. Can it teleport or drop pod into the enemy command center and decapitate the enemy command and then bounce out with no problems? Because if Necron Warriors were actually as good as Marines or better then the Necrons, having access to arguably the best teleportation technology in the entire setting, would be able to leverage the trillions of Space Marine equivalents they have access to to conquer the entire galaxy.

Only they don't do any of that gak. They're a slow lumbering horde of reanimating goons who walk forward and shoot and get mowed down by the hundreds by Marines.

If you are not Custodes, Knights, or CSM your line troops are inferior to Marines man for man. I'm sorry if this upsets anyone.

I think the area to focus on Sisters is their offensive profiles with maybe slight tweaks to defense. A 3+ Save is very rare amongst regular humans and most Sisters units have some sort of Invulnerable Save. FNP against Psychic Mortal Wounds would give us back our historic weak but present defense against Psychic Powers. But it is on the offense side that Sisters have been falling farther and farther behind Astartes.

Close Combat: Astartes and Sisters used to both have 1 Attack in Melee. Astartes now have 3, we lost the dubious enhanced CC Celestian Squad, and Celestian Sacresants have only 2 attacks. Strange given that Seraphim have 2 attacks and Zephyrim have 3? I think bumping up the Battle Sister Squad and most characters 1 attack wouldn't be out of order.

Ranged Combat: Need to focus on making the Sisters bread and butter weapons effective if they are going to do something other than dwell at the bottom of the rankings. Otherwise, they will end up shying away from their traditional units in favor of those that work. My thoughts.

Boltgun/Heavy Bolter: These need some addition to make them better than the stock variants that other Imperial Factions use. Extra damage like the Storm Bolter would be a bit much, but an extra pip of Strength would be rather nice on these for use against Infantry targets.

Meltas: Some extra boost her would be nice also. Most game changing would be extra range, but higher Melta rating wouldn't hurt the effectiveness either.

Flamers: As these already better than stock variants, asking for more would be greedy.

Sisters just need to be cheaper along with the main fixes that Flamers and Melta Guns for all armies require.

Breton wrote:


I actually like the idea of FNP Sisters - the light of the Emperor saving them from certain doom type stuff.

My take on this is that it would involve a lot more rolling and drag the game on. At a certain point, if an additional point of toughness or an extra would *effectively* equals a 6+ FNP, why not save us all the time and trouble and go that route instead of making players roll an extra dice on all wounds to save, what, like an extra two models per squad?

What I find somewhat frustrating is that a lot of people latch onto the stats and back them up with lore, without considering that, at some point, something has to give to make the *game* more enjoyable.

GW used to do this--power armor=3+ save. Cool. Humans=T3. Cool. Things tougher than humans=T4. Something strong enough to breach power armor and overcome T4? Then it's strong enough to gak your average marine troop--which is a tradeoff you have to give to run what should be an 'elite' army as pretty much whatever style it feels like. Then GW jacked up the lethality and everyone started complaining about how their super special marines didn't feel super special enough, so voila, W2 baseline infantry.

Which is fine. It doesn't make much sense that Marines get it when other armies don't (like necrons, lore wise, being able to still function with half their body missing, or daemons not even having an anatomy, or even gaunts whose internal structure is basically a bag of good with redundant structures and cellular activity), but it's an arbitrary gameplay number, and there wouldn't be much issue if everyone else either got similar treatment or were pointed better. Problem is, those marines are either cheaper or way better point for point than what Sisters can do. Which feels like a kick in the dick.

I think that the Melta thing is less of a Sisters issue and more of a 10th Ed 40k issue.

It's just far more acute in Sisters armies because it is their main (some might argue only) method of anti-tank.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

ccs wrote:
They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Ok, and? Necron Warriors have existed in their current state for longer than they were ever what they were in 2nd Ed. It'd be like getting annoyed because Marines aren't T3 ex-criminals anymore like they were back in the RT days.

And 2nd Ed ended almost 25 years ago.

Well the claim was always. Being true for 23 out of 26 years is not "always".



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

ccs wrote:

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Can you show me a single piece of lore that shows Necrons not massively outnumbering Marines on the battlefield?

Sure. I'll get around to linking you a pdf of the relevant WD or two eventually.

Hecaton wrote:
Sororitas used to have T4 in previous editions, though, that I could see making a comeback.

Did they? I don't remember that at all. At least as far back as the old Witch Hunter codex.

Jarms48 wrote:

Hecaton wrote:
Sororitas used to have T4 in previous editions, though, that I could see making a comeback.

Did they? I don't remember that at all. At least as far back as the old Witch Hunter codex.

In the Black Codex they were BS 4 T4 I4 Ld8 (Rest of their stats human normal).

So first or second edition? Ever after 1998(?) with core rule army lists from 3rd edition onwards they were T3.

2nd Ed they were T4. It didn't last into 3rd and beyond.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:


Single model units need higher toughness to be able to survive a game where no rules prevent you from shooting them straight away. That's why the shirtless beastboss on squigosaur is T10 while Ghazgkhull Thrakka is T6.

It's not Abaddon whose toughness is too low, Gulliman merely has an artificially inflated toughness so it actually takes more effort to kill him than a few suicidal meltas or a single plane, there is no fluff reasoning behind it.

Primarchs are consistently written to be able to kill greater daemons and other equivalent monsters, and even using just their own physical strength and toughness. Fulgrim has shattered the neck of an Avatar of Khaine, Sanguinius has snapped the spine of a Bloodthirster over his knee after surviving its heavy axe swings.

Angron has recently killed a planet and defeated an entire crusade fleet by swinging his sword once while jumping through space. I think that he should have a rule representing this that automatically places you in first place of any tournament or league you are playing in while also forcing all present imperial players to shelf their army and be forced to play a chaos army for the rest of the edition if you roll six sixes for his attacks.

The trouble with making the basic sisters profile stronger is then they just end up closer in cost to the marines - and there goes the points difference with it, so you just end up with underequipped firstborn.

The marines 'oath of the moment' is what could have been. A powerful but localised, opportunistic swing off the odds in your favour, allowing a weaker faction to become the stronger faction at key moments.

At Erjak,
The Palatine can also join Sacresants, triggering their rule and is probably the best option IMHO. Lethal hits in combat plus her own personal MW output (which ain’t great but is something).
I do agree with your other points (weird World we are living in) that the data sheets just don’t work. They need a significant rework which unfortunately isn’t going to happen until a new codex, so more than likely all we can truly expect is points adjustments.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

ccs wrote:

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Can you show me a single piece of lore that shows Necrons not massively outnumbering Marines on the battlefield?

I don't give a single gak about points and gameplay by the way. The Necrons of old were simply pointed and statted wrong. The current portrayal is far closer to lore accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

Exactly. Also, there are more Leman Russ tanks than there are Astartes in the galaxy. Quality is not inversely correlated with quality.

But yeah, I'd be ok with T4 sororitas. If orks can be t5 they can be t4.

Kind of an idiotic comparison given that a Leman Russ is a big fatass tank that is only good for being a big fatass tank. Can it teleport or drop pod into the enemy command center and decapitate the enemy command and then bounce out with no problems? Because if Necron Warriors were actually as good as Marines or better then the Necrons, having access to arguably the best teleportation technology in the entire setting, would be able to leverage the trillions of Space Marine equivalents they have access to to conquer the entire galaxy.

Only they don't do any of that gak. They're a slow lumbering horde of reanimating goons who walk forward and shoot and get mowed down by the hundreds by Marines.

If you are not Custodes, Knights, or CSM your line troops are inferior to Marines man for man. I'm sorry if this upsets anyone.

It's not at all upsetting it's more silly than anything. Litteral terminator robots or dudes in ceramic armor. Accent robot people with the most advanced ed tech in the setting litteraly millions of years old or some roided out human.

Look I like marines as much as the next guy they are cool. But frankly their lore is a little embarising when compared to other factions in the setting. Muscle will never outdo sufficiently advanced machine this has been proven a million times over.

So ya sci fi setting and all but frankly necrons should probably be way stronger with better guns than marines and since they are millions of years old (a number humans can't comprehend, look at any civilization today most are a few hundred years old) they should be balanced by being very few in number.

So sure marine spank all around I will join you sometimes but ya suspension Of disbelief is a little hard when marine lore starts to get carried away.

Makes for a good story when marines show up and save the day from mellenials old robot horrers but if this were even close to reality marines would get wrecked. You got dudes with 2 hearts or litteral undying robots.

Boosykes wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

ccs wrote:

They certainly weren't portrayed that way in 2e.
Either in lore or pts%mechanics.

Can you show me a single piece of lore that shows Necrons not massively outnumbering Marines on the battlefield?

I don't give a single gak about points and gameplay by the way. The Necrons of old were simply pointed and statted wrong. The current portrayal is far closer to lore accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hecaton wrote:

Exactly. Also, there are more Leman Russ tanks than there are Astartes in the galaxy. Quality is not inversely correlated with quality.

But yeah, I'd be ok with T4 sororitas. If orks can be t5 they can be t4.

Kind of an idiotic comparison given that a Leman Russ is a big fatass tank that is only good for being a big fatass tank. Can it teleport or drop pod into the enemy command center and decapitate the enemy command and then bounce out with no problems? Because if Necron Warriors were actually as good as Marines or better then the Necrons, having access to arguably the best teleportation technology in the entire setting, would be able to leverage the trillions of Space Marine equivalents they have access to to conquer the entire galaxy.

Only they don't do any of that gak. They're a slow lumbering horde of reanimating goons who walk forward and shoot and get mowed down by the hundreds by Marines.

If you are not Custodes, Knights, or CSM your line troops are inferior to Marines man for man. I'm sorry if this upsets anyone.

It's not at all upsetting it's more silly than anything. Litteral terminator robots or dudes in ceramic armor. Accent robot people with the most advanced ed tech in the setting litteraly millions of years old or some roided out human.

Look I like marines as much as the next guy they are cool. But frankly their lore is a little embarising when compared to other factions in the setting. Muscle will never outdo sufficiently advanced machine this has been proven a million times over.

So ya sci fi setting and all but frankly necrons should probably be way stronger with better guns than marines and since they are millions of years old (a number humans can't comprehend, look at any civilization today most are a few hundred years old) they should be balanced by being very few in number.

So sure marine spank all around I will join you sometimes but ya suspension Of disbelief is a little hard when marine lore starts to get carried away.

Makes for a good story when marines show up and save the day from mellenials old robot horrers but if this were even close to reality marines would get wrecked. You got dudes with 2 hearts or litteral undying robots.

Undying robots also got worse guns than whatever the Eldar fanboys got. Eldar fanspank is far worse.

Removed.

Boosykes wrote:
It's not at all upsetting it's more silly than anything. Litteral terminator robots or dudes in ceramic armor. Accent robot people with the most advanced ed tech in the setting litteraly millions of years old or some roided out human.

This is more of a style over substance argument, I'm afraid.

Nothing says that just because you have the greatest tech around that you also don't give a gak about your chaff and they get the crap bodies with the lowest (relative) survival rate, whereas you, being a noble Necron, get the best of the best.