Jidmah wrote:
I tried a lists which was mostly boyz at 1k points with some character support. I had zero chance at winning that game, for the reasons I outlined before, and I'm very confident the problem becomes worse at 2k points.

It doesn't really matter how many models you can flood the board with if you get roadblocked by units that you just can't kill. Especially if those units the same or less than 20 boyz.

I'm also very confident that my current list could handle a tide, since squigboys essentially make one unit disappear per turn on their own and nobz with attached warboss aren't far behind. Since both can have -1 to wound, my losses would be minimal.
Meanwhile, a unit of 3 MANz with KFF mek can pretty much stop a unit of choppa boyz dead in their tracks all day long and every single thump gun and rokkit gets 4 extra attacks against your mobs.

The GSC player who tried to run a re-animating horde against me (100+ models@1k points) was tabled by turn 3.

Playing max beastsnagga boyz might work out, boyz without characters are just not worth bringing.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
Errata is out.

Ghaz taking up 1 slot in a trukk hasn't been fixed

Metawatch Article wrote:A few other documents were mentioned in the video that you should be aware of. The first of these contains the initial balance updates that will launch in early July, seeking to address some of the early imbalances that have emerged in the new armies. Chief among these will be changes to Fate dice used by the Aeldari, and forms of indirect fire.

Players now set up objective markers on the battlefield.
Each Deployment card’s deployment map will show
players how many objective markers to set up and
where each should be placed. In Leviathan Tournament
Missions, models can end any type of move on top of an
objective marker

 Jidmah wrote:


Not just vehicles - IMO there are the following defensive "weight classes" in 10th edition:

1) Light infantry - gretchin, kultists, pox walkers, infantry squads, guardians. You have little requirements in regards to the quality of attacks here, more is better.
2) Medium infantry - marines, flash gits, sisters, beastsnagga boyz, aspects. They have multiple layers of defense and enough armor to benefit from cover. You need decent strength, devastating wounds or amor penetration to kill them efficiently. Weight of low quality attacks can hurt, but not wipe them.
3) Heavy infantry - terminators, MANz, custodes, bullgryns. Usually good toughness, armor and invuls backed up by high wound counts and defensive abilities, characters or stratagems. You need high quality guns to kill them, with good number of shots. They pretty much shrug off low quality attacks, even in high numbers and dedicated anti-tank guns often aren't sufficient to kill them because the low number of shots bounces of the invuls.
4) Mounted/Beasts/light vehicles - bikes, squighogs, spawn, buggies. Durable units similar to medium infantry, but with more wounds, but below the magic T8 threshold. Other than medium infantry, you need high damage weapons to kill them efficiently.
5) Vehicles - trukks, speeders, rhinos, guard artillery. Good armor, wounds and toughness of 8-10, but no further noteworthy defensive layers. Weight of attacks will hurt them, but as these models tend to be cheap there is no way to kill them efficiently without high quality weapons.
6) Monsters/Walkers - dreads, hellbrutes, daemon princes, primarchs, daemon engines. They have great defensive profiles, invuls, defensive abilities but are usually limited to T9 or 10 and around 10 wounds. In theory they could be drowned in attacks, but almost all of them hit hard, you take major losses when trying. PKs can usually take them down during the Waaagh!
7) Tanks/super-heavies - LRBT, battlewagon with 'ard case, morkanaut, landraiders. Unless you can ignore at least one layer of their durability (toughness or armor or high wound counts), don't bother shooting them.
Of course, there are some oddballs which fit nowhere, but the absolute majority of models fit into one of these classes.

Taking those "classes" and comparing them to a tide's toolbox:
Boyz with choppas: Good against 1), average against 2) and 4), bad against everything else
Beastsnagga boyz: Good against 1) 2) and 5), average against 4) and 6), bad against 3) and 7)
Warboss with PK: Good against 2), 4) and 5), average against 1), 6), bad against 3) and 7)
Rokkits: Good against 4) and 5), average against 6) and 2), bad against everything else.

 JohnU wrote:
I know you said you weren't going to do a tier list, but for this edition you pretty much did here. I think you got it pretty much right, but I slightly disagree that the magic tier is T10, not T8. S6-9 is pretty common across the board and for Orks in particular getting to those double digits is where we'll struggle.

The "class" thing is a good lesson. There's no more generalist units for us, or maybe anyone. Everything has a target it's good against, but that range is very narrow. One PK Nob in a Boyz/Stormboyz/Kommando Squad isn't doing gak anymore. You can't really evaluate units in a vacuum.

 Jidmah wrote:
I disagree. By 9th edition measures we used to define "good" as something that does its points worth of damage to a target and best case kills it in one turn. 10th is no longer that game, almost all instances of "massive mortal wounds" are loopholes which exploit devastating wounds in some way. Not only are these loopholes limited to very few armies and units, but I also expect GW to weed them out as the edition matures.

In the end, we will have to treat every one of those units like we treated daemon primarchs in 9th. You need to analyze whether you can kill them to begin with, whether killing them or avoiding or feeding them chaff is the best solution and when you do opt for killing them, you need to make sure that both the units good at killing them AND the units which are merely average at killing those big things are in position to take them down.

You can no longer defeat those units in the list building stage by simply bringing the right counter.

gungo wrote:
As stated before weapons like Pks are more anti heavy infantry then anti heavy vehicles.

Dev wounds is purposefully done and multiple armies/units are built around the keyword

but it’s become the only reliable way to kill certain units efficiently.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are foot sloggers viable now, do I have to use transports?
I noticed that boyz are now capped at 30 for some strange reason and that doesn't seem good for sloggers.

Forceride wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Are foot sloggers viable now, do I have to use transports?
I noticed that boyz are now capped at 30 for some strange reason and that doesn't seem good for sloggers.

Their capped at 20, and the meta is around trucks.

So i had my game and it went the way of the dodo.. expected since i went with many different things, but oh how bad i felt going against necrons. Clearing 5 destroyers to have like 4 come back like nothing was insane...

It was a free for all, we mostly duked out in our side (tau player was too shy and took to his corner ) of the map with ghaz and the boyz plus getting stuck in some skorpecks and destroyers, ghaz was sniping characters when ever he could and manage to take 2, and painboy caused MW into a spider, but the shooting+ the melee and the fact my opponent kept getting his units faster then i could murder forced me to wield. Looking back i think i should have held my ground and forced my opponent out of the reanimator range, had i done that and sniped the correct character in the correct order i probably would have had a better game. Live and learn i guess. Oh moz tanked a cthan like a boss, took no damage and gave some back, the face of my opponent when nothing goes through was priceless.

Anyway the summary is boys are not there yet, i rather go nobz, their blenders, oh and the kill rig is a game changer if played right, that S buff is surprising good and can make a claw go S11, nothing new for mozy and squighogs, but i enjoy them in squads of 3, pretty much easy to hide, good punch and also the nob on smasha is mandatory to run them, the buff from the rig also helps them.

Defkoptas were a disappointment, just not enough shots for a unit, could not even use their ability, i can see room for the rukkatruck as anti infantry but not at 110pts, when there are flashgitz or mekguns... Meganobz? fuget about it! Not even worth the 65pts for ghaz cover. Oh speaking of ghaz, yeah he is overpriced, sure he can kill stuff but struggles with same issues from previous edition, while not being not even half as durable. He should received moz defensive stat profile, not this gak...

Anyway that's my exp.

 Jidmah wrote:

gungo wrote:
As stated before weapons like Pks are more anti heavy infantry then anti heavy vehicles.

PK are good against neither. They are good at killing medium infantry like marines or snagga boyz but are fairly terrible against infantry with 3+ wounds, good saves and additional defensive buffs.

Dev wounds is purposefully done and multiple armies/units are built around the keyword

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out on that. Which armies and units, in specific, are built around "massive mortal wounds" caused by devastating wounds?
Before you go there, keep in mind that Death Watch has received the fastest errata in GW history and they have already announced the nerf for eldar.

but it’s become the only reliable way to kill certain units efficiently.

1) Efficiency is relative to how well other things kill your target. When there are no mortal wound wombo-combos anymore, requiring a whole army's damage for a turn might be considered efficient. You are still applying 9th standards, which is unanimously considered to be too lethal.
2) There should be no way to kill a landraider or knight as efficient as we did in 9th.

I'm fairly sure that all units you consider "efficient" are actually just broken good things.

gungo wrote:
Depends on what your standard of medium or heavy infantry is but ya 2 wounds and 2 or 3+ save, t5 is ideal for pks..

what I mean is devastating wounds was handed out regularly to most armies making mortal wounds common and yes the most efficient (or overpowered) units are those which stack high amount of attacks or anti- weapons with it… and those combos are in almost every army.

In some cases like deathwatch and wraithknights absurdly to much on (like 20-30mw), but those amounts are the abusive outliers whereas several armies have index units that can easily push out 8-12 mortal wounds (like an ork nob on squig w headwhompa in a unit with squig riders and 2 bomb squigs). Those units become almost necessary to take out heavy vehicles like knights.