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I will reserve judgment for when the dex drops. But in m opinion while we are a army in the fine park, i would like to see more support for anti-vehicle in melee.

I am also not a fan for 250pts for 20boyz with 5fnp slogging along considering other armies... if things like necrons stay the same, they can slap 440pts of warriors almost unkillable or lichguard, i want a bit of same treatment for our boyz's, i don't care if they do damage they should be durable.(How i know? I felt it first hand)

In theory the way to deal with necron blobs is take out the character (challenge strat in combat) and hope for a battle shock (deff dread/sag/wurrboy could help) so they can't use strats.

Crons are actually a pretty favorable matchup in my experience in 10th so far. They basically try to play like custodes with big bricks on objectives except they are even tougher but not even remotely as killy and also slow. The fast scoring things they have like scarabs/tomb blades can be removed with any of our trash units really and we can easily beat them to objectives to set up road blocks with trukks which lychguard can’t even reliably remove in a single combat phase. The C’tan is completely unkillable but is a prime target to try and tarpit with regular boyz. If your bringing a lot of squig boys than you probably won’t have a super fun time since doomsday arks obliterate them, but that’s also a very swingy damage unit so sometimes they might completely whiff.

 PaddyMick wrote:
In theory the way to deal with necron blobs is take out the character (challenge strat in combat) and hope for a battle shock (deff dread/sag/wurrboy could help) so they can't use strats.

Until you don't and they use their strat to revive the character.

Totally agree with you there flaming tadpole, it's tar pit match, attrition and move block. There's little point to kill stuff, and some of their guns play really well into some of our stuff.

Just pointing that for 250pts i would expect a semblance of that durability for foot slogging boyz. For 135pts i rather bring 10 on a truck, they last and do more.

We are clearly not a shooting army without the codex having dropped, so most our power isnt in our guns but melee. Yet they didnt even bother allowing the powerklaw to be strength 10 standard.

My main gripe really lies with the damned powerklaws not being strength 10 standard. They really should be. And killsaws only having 2 attacks hitting on 4, dealing 2 damage? The least they could do is give it damage 3.

But we are in a decent spot that is correct. We can play the missions well. And the Nobz and units using powerklaws are not bad at all with warbosses following them and all that, but we're a melee faction. We generally dont do lethal hits either. Powerklaws should really be strength 10 standard.

One of the most consistent problems in 10th in general is just that no melee weapons scaled up to fill their roles as tank busters in line with the increased toughness. There are ranged options, but no one really punches through armor very well.

Anyone having any luck with grot tanks/mega tanks? I'm thinking about a grot rebellion list and the models are great but I'm not sure if it's even remotely viable. The movement rule is interesting but do they have enough firepower to do anything besides be a minor annoyance?

Forceride wrote:

Until you don't and they use their strat to revive the character.

I'm sure if they can do that, but there's a debate about it here:

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/811075.page

That's different debate. That guy is thinking he can use reqular reanimation to bring hero back. Which would mean you need to kijl all heroes and troops at once or all come back quickly. No cp needed, no limit how often.

Necrons have stratagem to bring back just slain hero for 1cp. Once per battle for each hero.

Ressing hero via stratagem isx"t debatable. That's literally what stratagem says! Ressing via reanimation protocol is what that thread is about.

Stratagem certainly irritating. Can't do much but to force him to use cp to trigger resurection protocols but that's hard. Even with tson damage output they can have leeway to res hero(faced just that issue)

I m very sad that the whole speedfreak range is utterly useless except some “take one buggy fot this trik” in the whole army. That is the weak spot of the index. Not some tankbustas imho….

Beardedragon wrote:
We are clearly not a shooting army without the codex having dropped, so most our power isnt in our guns but melee. Yet they didnt even bother allowing the powerklaw to be strength 10 standard.

My main gripe really lies with the damned powerklaws not being strength 10 standard. They really should be. And killsaws only having 2 attacks hitting on 4, dealing 2 damage? The least they could do is give it damage 3.

Preach brother!

Beardedragon wrote:
We are clearly not a shooting army without the codex having dropped, so most our power isnt in our guns but melee

If you want effective shooting you'll have to remember that grot tanks, grot Mega-Tanks, mek gunz, & Kanz are a thing. Particularly the grot tanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Anyone having any luck with grot tanks/mega tanks? I'm thinking about a grot rebellion list and the models are great but I'm not sure if it's even remotely viable. The movement rule is interesting but do they have enough firepower to do anything besides be a minor annoyance?

Yes I am.
Firepower wise there's still nothing I can't tear through with massed BS4 rokkit/KMB shots.
*Grot tanks got slightly better this edition - tougher, stable movement, +1 gun per 5 tanks.
*My grot Mega-Tanks took a hit though. They went from awesome down to merely OK since I can't change the 3 single guns out for more rokkits/KMB. And their KMB got a bit of a nerf as well.

Back these up with Mek Gunz, Kanz, grot squads, maybe some melee orks, a plane or two (I use Wazbombs) etc to taste.

And, if your not opposed to Legends, Big Gunz. Though these took a serious nerfing as they now sport the mighty BS6 - for reasons....

Flyers having to start in reserve late 9e/now? Not really a problem (for me). I almost always started my Wazbomb there anyways so I could place it where it was most needed.

The theme of MY grot army was (and is) maximum Grot/minimum ork.
It also was built to be 9e Crusade legal. To that end it contained an ork boss on Squigosaur (warlord as Red Gobbo is a named character & thus not allowed to lead his own army in crusade) + the Wazbomb (I needed a Mek to access the scrap point rules ' oh, guess what KW the Waz sports....)

Quick question, does a Warboss in MA benefit from the “Krumpin Time” rule when he’s leading a unit of MANZ?

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Quick question, does a Warboss in MA benefit from the “Krumpin Time” rule when he’s leading a unit of MANZ?

Yes because he's part of the unit.

 PaddyMick wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Quick question, does a Warboss in MA benefit from the “Krumpin Time” rule when he’s leading a unit of MANZ?

Yes because he's part of the unit.

Brilliant. Thank you. Still getting my head around how the character and unit thing interacts and works.

No wolves on Fenris wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Quick question, does a Warboss in MA benefit from the “Krumpin Time” rule when he’s leading a unit of MANZ?

Yes because he's part of the unit.

Brilliant. Thank you. Still getting my head around how the character and unit thing interacts and works.

It's not super intuitive to be honest. You need to read each rule carefully, both on leaders and on units. Sometimes it just refers to specific models/this model (beastboss), sometimes to specific weapons(burnas, flash gitz), sometimes to the entire unit.

 Jidmah wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:

 PaddyMick wrote:

No wolves on Fenris wrote:
Quick question, does a Warboss in MA benefit from the “Krumpin Time” rule when he’s leading a unit of MANZ?

Yes because he's part of the unit.

Brilliant. Thank you. Still getting my head around how the character and unit thing interacts and works.

It's not super intuitive to be honest. You need to read each rule carefully, both on leaders and on units. Sometimes it just refers to specific models/this model (beastboss), sometimes to specific weapons(burnas, flash gitz), sometimes to the entire unit.

So I’ve noticed. For example the MA Warboss benefits from a 4+++ during the waaagh but his unit doesn’t

Hey Everyone,

I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?

They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?

Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…

I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…

Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?

Lootloader wrote:
Hey Everyone,

I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?

They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?

Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…

I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…

Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?

You about summed up the problem with the majority of aircraft this edition. Anything that banks on having to fly over enemy units to do damage is pretty much fethed this edition because you have to pivot after movement rather than before where you pivoted first and then moved, meaning you're only going to get to bomb units on objectives most of the time. Likewise, because of the plane alpha strike issues of 9th, GW has made it so planes are forced to come on T2 and they don't even have the deep strike option anymore, you need to arrive from the table edges. For us, the bommers are complete non-starters for their price, while the Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet both just don't have enough damage output to justify it relative to the cost of much more efficient units like Mek Gunz and Flash Gitz.

It also doesn't help that neither our WAAAGH! or our current detachment ability is functionally useless for Aircraft, barring the 5+ invuln on the turn you call a WAAAGH!

Ya GW is pretty much at a lost on how to balance aircraft. They're either completely busted op or useless with no in-between.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Ya GW is pretty much at a lost on how to balance aircraft. They're either completely busted op or useless with no in-between.

Agree, they should just drop the concept and go back to 5th edition's approach where all aircraft were moving like today's hover planes do. While it wasn't super immersive to have a dakkajet hover next to your shoota boyz all game, at least it worked. There is no point in simulating bombing runs on a relatively small battlefield in a game with just 5 turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

Lootloader wrote:
Hey Everyone,

I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?

They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?

Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…

I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…

Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?

[/spoiler]You about summed up the problem with the majority of aircraft this edition. Anything that banks on having to fly over enemy units to do damage is pretty much fethed this edition because you have to pivot after movement rather than before where you pivoted first and then moved, meaning you're only going to get to bomb units on objectives most of the time. Likewise, because of the plane alpha strike issues of 9th, GW has made it so planes are forced to come on T2 and they don't even have the deep strike option anymore, you need to arrive from the table edges. For us, the bommers are complete non-starters for their price, while the Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet both just don't have enough damage output to justify it relative to the cost of much more efficient units like Mek Gunz and Flash Gitz.

It also doesn't help that neither our WAAAGH! or our current detachment ability is functionally useless for Aircraft, barring the 5+ invuln on the turn you call a WAAAGH!

Even if you manage to drop a bomb on a valuable unit each turn, neither the burnabommer nor the blitza bommer are worth bothering with. Neither the squigbuggy nor the kopta are stellar units, but the deal comparable amounts of MW, have decent guns and can hold objectives for almost the same points.

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Crons are actually a pretty favorable matchup in my experience in 10th so far. They basically try to play like custodes with big bricks on objectives except they are even tougher but not even remotely as killy and also slow. The fast scoring things they have like scarabs/tomb blades can be removed with any of our trash units really and we can easily beat them to objectives to set up road blocks with trukks which lychguard can’t even reliably remove in a single combat phase. The C’tan is completely unkillable but is a prime target to try and tarpit with regular boyz. If your bringing a lot of squig boys than you probably won’t have a super fun time since doomsday arks obliterate them, but that’s also a very swingy damage unit so sometimes they might completely whiff.

Also, hoo boy does my face light up when I see those 20-man bricks.

Why yes, my grot tank unit will quite happily take their 5d3+TWENTY SHOTS thank you!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Ya GW is pretty much at a lost on how to balance aircraft. They're either completely busted op or useless with no in-between.

Agree, they should just drop the concept and go back to 5th edition's approach where all aircraft were moving like today's hover planes do. While it wasn't super immersive to have a dakkajet hover next to your shoota boyz all game, at least it worked. There is no point in simulating bombing runs on a relatively small battlefield in a game with just 5 turns.

Honestly I'd rather they go completely in the other direction. Make friendly aircraft arrive each turn, move an unlimited amount in a straight line from your DZ, and give them rules such that they can only target whats directly in front of them, so that kind of dictates where you have to place them on the board to make their various attacks.

The theoretical trade-off of "your opponent can't hide from it, it can't hide from them, and it's not as indestructible as a titanic unit so it doesn't have the same advantage as Towering" is perfectly fine on paper IMO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:
Anyone having any luck with grot tanks/mega tanks? I'm thinking about a grot rebellion list and the models are great but I'm not sure if it's even remotely viable. The movement rule is interesting but do they have enough firepower to do anything besides be a minor annoyance?

Short answer yes, I love my grot tanks.

Long answer uhhh... I might make more grot tanks? The megatank is a fun unit to run with a Mek, it's got a solid mix of anti-infantry dakka and anti-tank dakka with it hitting on 3s and then (usually) wounding on 5+s rerollable. and grot tanks are phenomenal either as scorcha spam anti-infantry pieces or rokkit spam anti-elite pieces. Just either/or. I run scorchas because I have kanz for anti-elite duty.

The main problem with running grotvolushun with the current list tbh is the 60 grot limit. I do extensive proxying from the Gloomspite Gitz range to give myself more unit options, and what I've been mostly doing is running squig herds as beast snagga boyz and boingrot bounderz as stormboyz to have more bodies on the field. Also mangler squigs as Mozrog Skragbad, to have another good anti-tank piece.

Man, that reminds me I should get around to getting those cawdor mini-walkers and grotting them up to make my proxy squighog boyz.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly I'd rather they go completely in the other direction. Make friendly aircraft arrive each turn, move an unlimited amount in a straight line from your DZ, and give them rules such that they can only target whats directly in front of them, so that kind of dictates where you have to place them on the board to make their various attacks.

The theoretical trade-off of "your opponent can't hide from it, it can't hide from them, and it's not as indestructible as a titanic unit so it doesn't have the same advantage as Towering" is perfectly fine on paper IMO.

Historically, an entire group of units playing a different game from everyone else has never worked well, and considering how many different types of fliers there are today, I'd favor going back to the one concept that did work over trying yet another thing that is essentially doomed to fail.

And honestly, having faced a couple of hovering fliers in the last few games, I'd totally wish orks could do that as well. It's just such simple and satisfying way to use those big models, and none of the attempts of bringing the terrible Death from the Skies rules to the regular games will ever come close.

 Jidmah wrote:

 flaming tadpole wrote:
Ya GW is pretty much at a lost on how to balance aircraft. They're either completely busted op or useless with no in-between.

Agree, they should just drop the concept and go back to 5th edition's approach where all aircraft were moving like today's hover planes do. While it wasn't super immersive to have a dakkajet hover next to your shoota boyz all game, at least it worked. There is no point in simulating bombing runs on a relatively small battlefield in a game with just 5 turns.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimskul wrote:

Spoiler:

Lootloader wrote:
Hey Everyone,

I’ve gotten four games in with my Orks since 10th has dropped, almost worked through playing with every unit I own. I was looking at the planes, and man they seem bad? Especially the bombers? I think perhaps against the right opponent you could make the wazbom and the dakkajet work, but the bombers seem useless, assuming I am interpreting the aircraft rules correctly?

They start in reserves, come in on turn 2, and then since they aren’t flying over a unit, they can’t drop a bomb until turn 3? And only if you’ve lined it up correctly and the opponent doesn’t move their units out of the way?

Of course there is rapid ingress to get them in a little earlier, but…

I just want to check that I’m not misinterpreting the rules? I’d love it if the planes could work nicely…

Does anyone have any experience with them? Tips for using them, or are they paperweights this edition?

[/spoiler]You about summed up the problem with the majority of aircraft this edition. Anything that banks on having to fly over enemy units to do damage is pretty much fethed this edition because you have to pivot after movement rather than before where you pivoted first and then moved, meaning you're only going to get to bomb units on objectives most of the time. Likewise, because of the plane alpha strike issues of 9th, GW has made it so planes are forced to come on T2 and they don't even have the deep strike option anymore, you need to arrive from the table edges. For us, the bommers are complete non-starters for their price, while the Dakkajet and Wazbom Blastajet both just don't have enough damage output to justify it relative to the cost of much more efficient units like Mek Gunz and Flash Gitz.

It also doesn't help that neither our WAAAGH! or our current detachment ability is functionally useless for Aircraft, barring the 5+ invuln on the turn you call a WAAAGH!

Even if you manage to drop a bomb on a valuable unit each turn, neither the burnabommer nor the blitza bommer are worth bothering with. Neither the squigbuggy nor the kopta are stellar units, but the deal comparable amounts of MW, have decent guns and can hold objectives for almost the same points.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, even if the flyer rules were the same as last edition, the burna bommer and blitza bommer are both terrible in terms of damage output and wouldn't be able to compete against anything else we have in our index rules, they're undoubtedly the worst duds in our army.

I also agree that GW should stop trying to make a flyers a mini-game on itself. I think we can abstract that they're not just floating in place for the fighter jets but being in the general vicinity of the air where the model is.

I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.

Aircrafts used to work that way when facing was important for vehicles, they could only fire the direction their guns pointed.

Guess what happened? Some planes had a turret. Guess what planes were bonkers strong and spammed to high heavens?

Quite frankly i liked how planes worked in 9th. They were more positional-restrictive in how they moved and mostly were just slightly harder to hit gun platforms that sometimes dropped bombs. Yeah theres the giant base thing you cant technically stand on but cmon you cannot possibly get rid of that problem and not introduce some super gamey way to cheese it offensively. Its the nature of tabletop gaming that you cant sit on another model for obvious reasons.

I wouldnt be surprised if thats why they have to start off table again, to avoid the T1 area denial. They could have dodged that by saying planes must start touching the back of your deployment too so they could never possibly be a "wall that isnt actually a wall" for anti charge.
9th was imo the closest weve been to planes being generally good but not disgustingly so. The only outliner examples were THAT plane specifically and nothing to do with the plane rules themselves, and the planes we viewed as crap were just designed like crap, not related to the rules.

 LunarSol wrote:
I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.

They worked that way in 4th edition and it was fine.

 LunarSol wrote:
I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.

Sure they have. When flyers (and drop pods) 1st came along from FW they had nice simple rules.
They entered on the opponents mv phase, from a board edge , facing some direction, and you traced a straight line across the board. This was the flight path. The plane could shoot from any point along the path. BUT, before the dice were rolled, the enemy got a chance to shoot at the plane (some restrictions & penalties applied). If it was shot down or damaged, then no strafing/bombing. If it survived, then fire away. The plane then flew off board & might return next round.
It was simple & worked & sadly devolved to what we have today. :(

 LunarSol wrote:
I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.

So kinda like a stratagem? Draw a line indicated by the flyer model. X effect happens to the units it passes over? Be it bombing runs, strafing runs or hell could even make rules for supply or mine drops.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.

They worked that way in 4th edition and it was fine.

I actually had to dig out my apocalypse book and look those up.

Actually, if you translated those to today's core rules the only major difference would be that there were no movement restrictions outside of minimum movement range and that you could bomb immediately after coming in from reserves. And of course, you get the whole "Hard to Hit" nonsense - removing that was one of the best changes of 10th.

I'm not sure bombing from reserves is a good idea for balance reasons, and but the movement would absolutely be.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ccs wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
I like the idea of aircraft doing strafing runs across the table, leaving and coming back, but GW hasn't figured out how to make that happen in a way that makes them worth taking.

Sure they have. When flyers (and drop pods) 1st came along from FW they had nice simple rules.
They entered on the opponents mv phase, from a board edge , facing some direction, and you traced a straight line across the board. This was the flight path. The plane could shoot from any point along the path. BUT, before the dice were rolled, the enemy got a chance to shoot at the plane (some restrictions & penalties applied). If it was shot down or damaged, then no strafing/bombing. If it survived, then fire away. The plane then flew off board & might return next round.
It was simple & worked & sadly devolved to what we have today. :(

What's the point of even bringing a model when it never touches the table? Those are great rules for scenarios where you don't want to have an actual squadron of bombers for mission rules, but terrible rules for a model.