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Cool! I was just curious. I get to play too little so was wondering what the appeal was. Hopefully I will get to play on sunday and am aiming to try out Taktikal woth a smattering of different stuff. I figure that since I'll undoubtedkly lose I might as well try out some fun stuff.

Thats definitely the spirit. I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there. Its important to try out new unit compositions and such to see what works for you and what doesnt.

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there.

This is an interesting quote! Why do you think Orks are more complex to play than other races?
Or is it more complex to win with them in this edition?

 Kroem wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there.

This is an interesting quote! Why do you think Orks are more complex to play than other races?
Or is it more complex to win with them in this edition?

I can try and answer this, not sure everyone will agree though:

1. We have a simple plan. Like every simple plan, your opponent sees through this so it becomes a mind game of forcing bad decisions and compromises. This is not easy by itself because of the other reasons.
2. Mistakes snowball hard or can be so critical that are game ending. That critical charge that you failed costed the game, you charged the wrong target.. shooting to the wrong thing.. not correctly assessing that enemy model threat or tank, yeah all armies suffer for these mistakes more or less, but we suffer for all them for same reason, because our defenses are based in bodies, we are like a glass canon that has a lot of bullets, every mistake blows up a one or more bullets, so each one diminishes not only tactically but also offensively. It was pretty common to win on points, yet every single piece of your army had been removed, these days less so but that is and continues to be the plan... we just do not have mobility/staying power/offensive of other armies. We live and die on the decision of the bodies we have, this creates a need for EVERY TRADE to be in our favor.
3. Our army is random, no seriously, take a look at our datasheets, most of the good stuff is either on 4 or 5, but in general with large volume. This makes really mathy and prone to experiment, it also makes most of it traps which is a common trend in the faction. But has you might have saw in DakkaDakka detach, all it takes is some badly thought keywords/rules and we turn busted really quick, bare in mind this is not always so. Its part of the charm of the army and mind games... your opponent will be guessing just as much as you, will those flashgits obliterate that unit or whiff royally? Again this goes into point 2, we can swing a lot, i think it's called the delta in math when something fall's way out of the common stats, we are a high delta army.

Honestly this is the things that comes to mind, i help new bros getting their wings with their armies and the contrast between their tools and mine are like heaven and earth. I had this same discussion using these same arguments with a space marine player. Because he failed to access both my stuff abilities and his own stuff advantages.

 Kroem wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
I mean orks are incredibly complex and difficult to master, unlike many other factions out there.

This is an interesting quote! Why do you think Orks are more complex to play than other races?
Or is it more complex to win with them in this edition?

I play orks and tyranids for instance. Ive had 1 RTT victory when we just got our codex, with pre nerf'ed bully boys. Fun times. On the other hand, ive never really done well with orks afterwards. Orks are punished super hard by mistakes, because everything we have is made up of paper, barring a few units here and there. On the other hand ive had a 2nd and a 3rd place at an actual GT with tyranids. Tyranids are also not really that map dependant but if you play at team tournaments then orks can really be skewered depending on whether you end up on a light table or not.

When i play tyranids, however, i can make mistakes, and not always lose a game based on that mistake. Yesterday, i played Da big hunt, and i failed to screen out a narrow enough path for 20 zerkers teleporting in with lord invucatus (rapid ingress then move 8 + advance and charge) on to my 300 point squighog riders with a 160 point boss on squig with gloryhog. I basically lost all of them because i had not called a waaagh when he teleported in, and my kill rig was not positioned correctly to prevent my squiggies from being attacked, and lost the game.

I made 1 mistake, and i lost. I get that its a big sort of mistake, but the fact the waaagh has to be called at your command phase unlike in 9th where it could be any ones command phase, makes it difficult to find the right time to waaagh. I could have prevented a complete disaster if i could be allowed to go 5++ but i just couldnt. I also lost a kill rig there.

The point is, if i had played my usual maleceptor/norn list with hormagaunt screens this wouldnt be a problem, and even if they went through, all they would attempt to kill were -1 to hit malcepetors with a 4+ and a 5+++ from my fnp stratagem. And im not even sure they would succeed.

Most factions are allowed to make mistakes, but orks arent. You have to play flawlessly and know the game to an insane degree because honestly, you're neither durable nor do you actually hit all that hard. You CAN hit hard, but you dont by standard. Its also a really slow army once the waagh is over and you are out of your transports, and that means you have to really pay the transport tax, on top of the character tax. Something at least tyranids do not.

Furthermore orks are often mostly melee focused, or shooting focused, they often dont have a lot of combined arms, unlike things like tyranids. And Games workshop seem dead set on making sure we dont get a lot of shooting units on the field, by constantly nerfing our infantry capable of actually shooting.

And the fact that those who win with orks, are very few in between and only the same ork players for the most part. Take Denmark for instance (my country) no ork player has won any major GTs in a very long while because we dont produce any super good ork players.


The bottom line really is, orks are not durable, they are also not super fast barring maybe 1 round and you have many taxes to pay. This means that positioning is more important for us than it ever were for my tyranids, as one mistake will lose you entire units, and maybe even the game. You can hit hard sure but we dont actually hit as hard as we may sometimes like to do, and our shooting can be unreliable and our infantry shooting seem to always be nerfed.

Orks are difficult. Very difficult. I saw an insane difference in complexity when i shifted over to tyranids, and i know tyranid plays a lot like many other factions do. Sure they have their own complexity also (every faction does) but some factions are just easier than others. I think its important to acknowledge that not all factions are equally hard in their own way. For instance space marines with a focus on robute guilliman picking 2 oath targets with vindicators is not a hard faction at all. Some easy factions can have hard detatchments, but for orks it doesnt really matter what detatchment you play, it wont be easy for you if you want to win GTs. You have to play perfectly.

Can confirm what Forceride and Beardedragon wrote. Whether your opponent rolls good or bad, orks will continuedly bleed wounds over the course of the game, even a complete and utter defeat of your opponent will leave you with heaps of dead models by turn 5. If you overestimate your unit's killing power or just roll badly, you weaken or lose an important part of your army, which pairs with the swingy nature of low BS and AP. Sometimes and entire shooting phase whiffs and you need to plan for that. It's also worth noting that orks tend to have much less tools and tricks available to them that armies like tau, eldar or marines do. The ork toolbox ist mostly just above average statlines which get elevated to great stats during the Waaagh! Most of the game plan is to make sure that the right statline is in the right place at the right time.

I've currently switched to my DG army and once again, it feels like going into easy mode, and not just because of their insane power level right now. Sometimes enemy shooting just bounces off my units and does nothing, and I'm more or less guaranteed that pointing the right weapons at the right targets will cause some damage. That simply doesn't happen when playing orks.

Yeah, if you have a motorbike like this, you say, your motorbike has “charakter”

And lets not even talk about how every time you want to play a detatchment you must skew your lists and almost have Max amount of units of specific types. So you will often find 3x deffkoptas, 3x meks, 3x deff dreads, 3x what ever.

Wanna play kult of speed? Congratulations, you need 18 deffkoptas. And probably a lot of warbiker units too. Wanna play Dread mob? You either need a lot of tankbustas/lootas with lots of mek keyword characters (like 3 big meks and several mini meks) and you cant get your detatchment rule unless everyone of your infantry models pay the character tax. If you for some reason decide not to play the infantry and go for walkers, then have fun putting together like 6 to 12 killa kanz or 3 shooty deff dreads, which most people dont even own.

Da big hunt? 2-3 kill rigs, a full 8 squighogboys or like 40 beastsnagga boys.
Taktikal brigade? Character mash, again a ton of different characters needed.
Bully boys? 15-20 Nobz or 3x5-6 MANZ + 3x warboss in mega armor.

The only real none spammy detatchment we have is war horde really. Except it spams trukks of course.


To be fair, shooty deff dreads are actually quite good in more dakka and dread mob, but who even has 3x deff dreads with magnetized arms? Many people dont show up at tournaments with 3x deff dreads with 3-4 KMBs per dread, simply because they dont HAVE any deff dreads with that loadout. And lets be real here, Deff dreads and killa kanz, are NOT easy to magnetize! I have seen more people with several deff dreads with different loadouts than just 3 deff dreads with fully magnetized arms. And that happens when orks are your first army, then you most likely havent done this.

Lets look some convenience stuff here:
One deff dread package does NOT provide you with 4 KMBs. It provides you with 2. So for every package of deff dread you buy, you cant even outfit One single dread with all 4 arms worth of KMBs. You need 2 packages to outfit 1 dread.

Looking at the Killa kanz package you can make 3 killa kanz, but you dont have 3 flamers or 3 rocket launchers in the package either.

So even if you want to play dread mob or more dakka with a Deff dread or killa kan focus, you cant do so unless you pay for more than just the models, you have to somehow find extra weapons to outfit your units. Which is absolutely insane.

Orks spam different and specific units to a degree tyranids, at least, do not. Depending on what detatchment i play, my entire rooster of units in my ork army that make sense just change up completely. Whether i play synaptic nexus, crusher stampede or invasion fleet, many of the same units can be used for Tyranids. Whether i play kult of speed, da big hunt or dread mob, i can suddenly find myself using completely different roosters. Meaning even as orks have a large rooster of models, you also MUST have those units. You cant build a base of units and go: this is fine to play most detatchments, because it will not work.

This makes orks tediously expensive to also play. This also adds to the difficulty of actually playing the faction and why only the same ork players even win tournaments.

I can't say I agree with that. I rarely, if ever, run triples of anything besides gretchin, boyz or trukks. Unless you rely on having broken things carry you to a win, most detachments are fully playable even if you don't max out their favored rules.

Beast snagga boyz and breaka boyz lead by a warboss character are still great units in a bully boyz detachment, tactical brigade needs like 4-5 big mek or warboss characters to function and in dread mob you are probably better off not bringing a single deff dread than 3. 6 killa kanz really isn't a big number, it's literally two boxes.
The one reason to spam koptas in KoS is because every single other options sucks.
The only detachment which requires such a commitment is the beastsnagga one, and it kind of was designed in a way that you get a big bonus for big limitations.

There are plenty of units which are good irrespective of the detachment you are running. The main reason why people freak out over not getting their detachment rule is OCD. It odd to think that flash gits or tank bustas are suddenly a bad unit just because they don't get sustained hits in melee.

 Jidmah wrote:
I can't say I agree with that. I rarely, if ever, run triples of anything besides gretchin, boyz or trukks. Unless you rely on having broken things carry you to a win, most detachments are fully playable even if you don't max out their favored rules.

Beast snagga boyz and breaka boyz lead by a warboss character are still great units in a bully boyz detachment, tactical brigade needs like 4-5 big mek or warboss characters to function and in dread mob you are probably better off not bringing a single deff dread than 3. 6 killa kanz really isn't a big number, it's literally two boxes.
The one reason to spam koptas in KoS is because every single other options sucks.
The only detachment which requires such a commitment is the beastsnagga one, and it kind of was designed in a way that you get a big bonus for big limitations.

There are plenty of units which are good irrespective of the detachment you are running. The main reason why people freak out over not getting their detachment rule is OCD. It odd to think that flash gits or tank bustas are suddenly a bad unit just because they don't get sustained hits in melee.

While 6 killa kanz isnt a lot, you dont get 3 rocket launchers with each box, making even 6 killa kanz a semi tedious project to start on. Deff dreads are a nightmare to magnetize and few people can even put down a deff dread with 4 rockets or KMBs, because they made melee deff dreads.

and you still rock often either 10 or 20 nobz for Bully boyz, or 15 MANZ. Even being able to field 15 Manz is 5 packages. 18 deff koptas is 6 packages, Greentide needs at least 80 boys rocking in 8 packages.

These units are only useful in such a massive amount in that one specific detatchment, being useless in the same quantity in other detatchments (for the most part at least). You dont need 80 boyz in any other detatchment, you might at best you 40 or just 20. You wont use 18 deff koptas anywhere else, just there. Mega Nobz might show up in a unit of 5 at any given time or 10 Nobz, but never 20 nobz, or 15 Manz.

Yea there are overlaps of useful units that you can use multiple places, but some detatchments just puts them in extreme quantity that you wont find anywhere else. Ill never use as many beast snagga boys anywhere else as im using in Da big hunt. This is true for many of our detatchments. This is not true for the most part for the tyranid detatchments. I can still more or less use the same units to a degree of the same quantity in other detatchments.

This is why our detatchments really change out what our army can do. This is both good and bad. Good if you have a wild rooster of basically everything the army can throw at you. Good if you like wildly different play styles also. If anything i feel like GW did a good job making the different detatchments diverse and interesting (that they made a massive godsized gak on buggies is another problem).Bad if you.. well dont have the different models needed.

I been advocating that we should have ways to outright ignore bleeding wounds or prevent them since 9th.

I think green tide captures this the best, the issue is this should have been in all infantry datasheets, besides the waagghh rule.

We should be one of the few armies, like nids/necrons/IG that should have the ability to recover bodies. We are a horde armies, the main concept of a horde is infinite number and attrition, we should be the kind of armies that absorbs damage the best we do not need to do best damage. But we currently feel like eldar but with less everything

The idea is for each 5 you kill i get 10 back, we should be able to keep our vehicles running since their literally junk, so they should comeback if proper support given.

I think that is the way, i am not seeing us ever compete on mobility or offense, so the answer should be staying power


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to add, that is a thematic feeling of the faction, endless numbers endless bullets, junk just runs up to you even if it blows up. All in a mad rush to confront the opponent.

I don't need to worry to hit you i have buckets for that. I don't care how many of mine you kill, there's always more itching to fight

It's like the ork saying that we always win, we always keep coming what matters is the fight, and that should be the feeling my opponent has against me, i always coming back and i don't care for losses, be them tank/walkers/monsters/boyz

 Forceride wrote:
I been advocating that we should have ways to outright ignore bleeding wounds or prevent them since 9th.

I think green tide captures this the best, the issue is this should have been in all infantry datasheets, besides the waagghh rule.

We should be one of the few armies, like nids/necrons/IG that should have the ability to recover bodies. We are a horde armies, the main concept of a horde is infinite number and attrition, we should be the kind of armies that absorbs damage the best we do not need to do best damage. But we currently feel like eldar but with less everything

The idea is for each 5 you kill i get 10 back, we should be able to keep our vehicles running since their literally junk, so they should comeback if proper support given.

I think that is the way, i am not seeing us ever compete on mobility or offense, so the answer should be staying power


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to add, that is a thematic feeling of the faction, endless numbers endless bullets, junk just runs up to you even if it blows up. All in a mad rush to confront the opponent.

I don't need to worry to hit you i have buckets for that. I don't care how many of mine you kill, there's always more itching to fight

It's like the ork saying that we always win, we always keep coming what matters is the fight, and that should be the feeling my opponent has against me, i always coming back and i don't care for losses, be them tank/walkers/monsters/boyz

GW have almost always shown preferential treatment for recursion rules more towards Necrons, Tyranids and Guard unfortunately, both from strategems or specific characters/units (e.g. Chenkov for conscripts, Tervigon for Termagants, Necrons you already know through reanimation protocols) and more recently GSC. Orks I think have only ever had the Green Tide strat back in 8th, and I find it funny that for a race that is notoriously known for being hardy and able to be patched together up quickly that we can't compete on several levels of durability outside of having a relatively higher baseline of toughness, but we aren't really costed in a way that lets us leverage it outside a WAAAGH! turn.

Actually 3 deffdreads are per $, time and space much easier target than 18 koptas. There use to be a time you could stack 3 units of 3 dreads. So the max used to by 9.

3 are easy to build and paint. And the spare parts are easy to gain in various designs from 3d companies or 3d print even without buying “fake” parts.

Lowering the max number of models of some type is the best we faced in last few years. Doing 30 MANz was really annoying and I expect the koptas would be reduce to 3x3 in few years too, because they are one of the few units left in the old “scale”.

Which is a pitty, I have 12 already and another 24 old AoBR koptas in the storebox because I love them:]

I agree Grimskull, remains to be seen what we get in 11th, because i think this spot is where we are going to stay. Not confident in the next slate to balance DG their going to buff us.

 Forceride wrote:
I agree Grimskull, remains to be seen what we get in 11th, because i think this spot is where we are going to stay. Not confident in the next slate to balance DG their going to buff us.

Weirdly I'm hoping that we don't get any major buffs next slate other than some token points adjustment. If they can bring the top tier factions down a little, then we can hopefully claw our way back into the golden 45-50% range. Orks have a habit of getting stomped into the dirt every time we get buffs and stick our head over the parapet.

I'd rather a lifetime of being a mid-tier/rogue army than a few weeks at the top of the tree before getting triple-nerfed into oblivion for the millionth time.

Well, games workshop always seem to heavy handedly deal with orks if we stray too close to the sun, so i agree with that notion.

 Tomsug wrote:
Actually 3 deffdreads are per $, time and space much easier target than 18 koptas. There use to be a time you could stack 3 units of 3 dreads. So the max used to by 9.

3 are easy to build and paint. And the spare parts are easy to gain in various designs from 3d companies or 3d print even without buying “fake” parts.

Lowering the max number of models of some type is the best we faced in last few years. Doing 30 MANz was really annoying and I expect the koptas would be reduce to 3x3 in few years too, because they are one of the few units left in the old “scale”.

Which is a pitty, I have 12 already and another 24 old AoBR koptas in the storebox because I love them:]

Also keep in mind that dread and kan arms are the literally the same bits. If you mix and match the boxes you can easily get whatever loadout you want. In additon, deff dreads are probably one of the easiest models to magnetize in all of 40k, I literally did it with no modelling skills whatsoever with just a clipper and super glue when there were no online tutorials. Those youtube videos jumping through hoops to perfectly hide the magnets in within the ball joins are just perfectionist nonsense.

As for the new "scale", it's literally 1 unit = 1 or 2 boxes of models. All reduction of unit sizes follow that pattern for existing boxes, new sets tend to be 1 box only unless the unit leader dual-builds into a regular dude. Also, old unit size for koptas was never more than 5, so those 24 AoBR koptas have never been playable outside of apocalypse formations.
There is no reason to believe that GW would reduce them to less than 3-6 outside of "They are out to get me!" tinfoil hat conspiracy theories.

We are on 38% win rate with very few people playing orks on competitive level right now. This gives us hope no other nerf comes

One dude however seems to be quite succesfull which I cannot validate, but can live with it




Automatically Appended Next Post:
JIDMAH - I ' m pretty conivnced there was 3x6 window but it doesn' t matter. The ridiculous ammount of Koptas I have come comes from funny drunk shopping on ebay, not from intention playing 20+ koptas

The fact our rating is tanking just makes me facepalm at the cognitive dissonance over at GW.

 Tomsug wrote:
We are on 38% win rate with very few people playing orks on competitive level right now. This gives us hope no other nerf comes

One dude however seems to be quite succesfull which I cannot validate, but can live with it




Automatically Appended Next Post:
JIDMAH - I ' m pretty conivnced there was 3x6 window but it doesn' t matter. The ridiculous ammount of Koptas I have come comes from funny drunk shopping on ebay, not from intention playing 20+ koptas

3x6 has been possible since the new plastic kit, which is two boxes per unit. Before that kit, koptas have been a 1-5 kit since 4th edition's codex and were usually run as singles unless you were being silly. In apoc there were two formations, one with 15 and one with 30 koptas. I know quite well because I own exactly 15 AOBR koptas

Jidmah - ok, you da boss

Anyway

Despite great win rate, some Warbosses in the CI https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-10th-cold-as-ice-pt-1/

Goonhammer Open 2025 Presented By Gaming Under the Ice - 5th – Rudy Friesen – Orks (Bully Boyz) - mass Manz



Behind Enemy Lines 2025 - 2nd – Shane Meys – Orks (Green Tide): max 120 Boyz and max 30 Kommandos

 Forceride wrote:
The fact our rating is tanking just makes me facepalm at the cognitive dissonance over at GW.

The problem is that GW very clearly is biased towards certain factions being "haves" and "have-nots" on what is on their priority list for being the meta darlings. Unsurprisingly, most marine variants are typically included in that list amongst other factions like Eldar, both of whom take several rounds of comparatively light touches for nerfs when they top up too high on the win rate.

It doesn't help that GW being more aligned with the competitive/tournament scene compared to before, and the meta people that are advising them tend to be very biased towards their own specific factions (which tends to cycle between some marine/CSM variant to other "approved" xenos factions like Nids, Eldar or Necrons) and we have very few (if any) dedicated Ork players that has significant input.

Throw in how our faction works due to how swingy we are and how GW can't do basic math (Moar Dakka being a prime example of this) and so when we do hit big, we often do it with a splash and unfortunately with how many people in the community that see us as the "joke" faction we get dogpiled hard when we look like we grow bigger than our britches.

Can't add anything to that. GW really hasn't changed in that regard, despite finally having found a somewhat competent writer for our codices.

I agree with what you say Grim, but remember to avoid associating malice to what can be explained with ignorance.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you say, specially if we look into the past. But we can give ourselves some room, that there is a lot of ignorance going on, specially when we talk of how our faction should be, and how GW sees it. I have my doubts and it does not make much business sense, keeping something broken. In my local, orks are pretty popular, the owner told me so (i know self experience bias, but we are one of the most played factions, even if we do not win much). So... i think there is a mix of old thinking and just plain incompetence. Or like they mentioned once, they balance on... feels.

Anyway i really would like to see the discussion moving into what we need to succeed, with out being oppressive. I think i made a solid attempt, for now i will just play orks and throw dices.

5th – Sean Olson – Orks (Dread Mob): Sensational Stompa / Morkanaut / Gorkanaut action in Dread Mob.

Just saw that on Goonhammer - sounds hilarious, does anyone have access to the list?

More than half of the codes was in a decent place before the last update, if I would still do those rainbow tables, there would be very few red or yellow units.

Units with big issues are:
Big Mek - has a good gun, a good melee weapon and good skills. He can't compete with a warboss though and needs a point drop.
Boss Snikrot - should cost a lot less. He is 5 points more than fething typhus.
Deffkilla Wartrike - it would be nice if the melta actually had a chance to doing anything, and it absolutely needs an ability that helps warbikers.
Painboss - Plague Surgeon returns one plague marine every turn, has better stats and abilities all around, costs less and is still considered terrible. Needs a full rework.
Wurrboy - Another lost cause, also needs a full rework. Why doesn't he just have the kill rig's abilities?
Shoota Boyz - the one unit that actually should have sustained hits 2. They also need a leader that actually synergizes with them.
Burna Boyz - cuttin' flames should be a lot better, like S5 AP-2 2dmg or something.
Deff Dread - more wounds
Killa Kans - more wounds
Kommandos - too expensive, should not be more than 100 points
Lootas - Drop them back down to S7 for all I care, but make them BS5+/heavy
All buggies need more wounds and better guns.
Mek Gunz - double wounds, double shots, increase points.
Morkanaut - kustom mega zappa should be S12
Stormboyz - need more attacks and an ability that helps them charge from deepstrike
Warbikers - not enough shooting, not enough melee, bad survivability. They need massive buffs to function, like outriders and shining spears got.

I'll not go into planes, fortifications or the stompa. GW clearly is keeping them out of the game, so there is no point discussing them.

It's alright Jidmah, we know forts/planes/stompa are pipe dreams. I think we are allowed to dream at the least xD

CI part 2mthis week with another warbosses with the different list archetypes and Forceride, you can do more than just a dream.. check it

Bossdoc, ready to serve

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-10th-cold-as-ice-pt-2/

WarGamesCon 15 Warhammer 40K Championship - 6th – Bryan Brooks – Orks (War Horde) - Kill Rigs, big blob os sauig riders, warbikers etc. Pretty mobile list kind of I like.



Huzzah Hobbies Road to NOVA 40K Event Hosted by Away Games - 5th – Sean Olson – Orks (Dread Mob): Sensational Stompa / Morkanaut / Gorkanaut action in Dread Mob



I like both of these lists a lot!

I really just miss the times when kommandos could be brought in units of 5.

Thanks, Tomsug! Unfortunately, I'm one Morkanaut short of running that list...But it looks really fun as hell. Although it probably wouldn't work as well on WTC Terrain...