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 Jidmah wrote:
Can confirm what Forceride and Beardedragon wrote. Whether your opponent rolls good or bad, orks will continuedly bleed wounds over the course of the game, even a complete and utter defeat of your opponent will leave you with heaps of dead models by turn 5. If you overestimate your unit's killing power or just roll badly, you weaken or lose an important part of your army, which pairs with the swingy nature of low BS and AP. Sometimes and entire shooting phase whiffs and you need to plan for that. It's also worth noting that orks tend to have much less tools and tricks available to them that armies like tau, eldar or marines do. The ork toolbox ist mostly just above average statlines which get elevated to great stats during the Waaagh! Most of the game plan is to make sure that the right statline is in the right place at the right time.

I've currently switched to my DG army and once again, it feels like going into easy mode, and not just because of their insane power level right now. Sometimes enemy shooting just bounces off my units and does nothing, and I'm more or less guaranteed that pointing the right weapons at the right targets will cause some damage. That simply doesn't happen when playing orks.

I ran into this myself last night. Funny enough, against Death Guard. Nothing the orks had could hit hard enough to do any real damage to stop all the T9 models with 10+ wounds. I was aghast at just how ineffective powerclaws have become. The deathguard auras, free mortal wounds, and an insane number of keyword type weaponry just overwhelmed our greater (yet somehow performance muddled) numbers.

The fight wasn't even close, and even after a full night of replaying the game in my head, I can't think that there was any chance to have won... draw maybe, but no chance of winning.

When talking about T9 hulls, you are most likely referring to drones and MBH. Yes, those are busted, I don't think orks currently have a fighting chance against an optimized DG list.

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

What I was referring to wasn't their current power level though. It's more the effect of units sometimes just ending up unharmed despite being shot by a somewhat decent weapon, while being able to just kill a unit or two per turn without trading the shooting unit. Orks can't do either.

 Jidmah wrote:

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

Just wait another 3 months.... thats great advice for people who don't play the game/don't play very often.
And that assumes the DG actually get nerfed.

How about in the here & now though?

ccs wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

But DG definitely have a huge nerf incoming the next time GW does any balancing update, so don't worry too much.

Just wait another 3 months.... thats great advice for people who don't play the game/don't play very often.
And that assumes the DG actually get nerfed.

How about in the here & now though?

Yes, GW totally should knee-jerk nerf codices immediately when people start complaining about `them without gathering any actually data.

They also should totally update balancing four times a week so people who don't play very often never experience the same game twice.



Do you even read your own posts before sending them? I assume that there will be an update in the next one or two weeks.


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As for the here and now, I have explained multiple times why I can't see a way for orks to counter them, especially not with the recent point hikes taking them even further apart.

DG naturally counter anything that gets too close, on top of that orks struggle to kill the exact units which are far to cheap for what they do and thus appear in droves in DG lists. The killing blow for orks is that due to being too cheap, DG can bring so much ranged firepower that they can easily eliminate the few units which could actually threaten them without risk. You could cut 250 points from a good DG a list and they would still have a decent chance at winning against orks.

If you have found a miracle cure, feel free to share. I'm out of ideas, and not for the lack of trying. Except if it's grot tanks. Then I don't care.

Its not just against death guard though. A unit of 3 meganobs being lead by a warboss cant even reliable take down a main battle tank even on the waaagh. They would struggle against our own battlewagons, and I don't even want to think how they would deal with Knights.

And that is a Warboss with what is traditionally our heaviest hitting gitz.

Something just feels off all around in Ork-land and its not the lack of the 2nd edition hair squig.

MANz aren't supposed to take down battle tanks though. Most terminator units from other armies can't do that either since thunder hammers were nerfed.

Their job is more or less to be difficult to kill when you aim the wrong weapons at them, while being barely strong enough to take objectives from other infantry units. They either hold objectives in the middle or start fights with units that can't hurt them reliably and wither them down through attrition.

If you are looking for close combat vehicle killers, that would be nobz or breaka boyz.

It's a departure from previous design paradigms, but finally solved the issue of MANz and Nobz stepping on each other's toes for the same role.

Compared to most other terminators, MANz aren't that bad. Many flavors of marines don't have any good leaders and/or don't have good abilities. Meanwhile we have 3 decent ones, and their ability is still useful despite its nerf. My only gripe is that they should absolutely roll back the combi weapon change. That profile has no business representing a rokkit/skorcha weapon.


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I recently heard this in a not ork specific strategy guide about stratagems:

The, by far, most important skill in 10th edition is to know how much damage a unit will do against any type of target.

And I agree. This skill dictates your deployment, movement, strategy and which stratagems you use when. It's also the most common cause for casual player losing against me.
It's twice as important for orks, be cause we don't get second chances when we attack the wrong target, and your opponent usually doesn't have to worry about how well their weapons do against ork defensive profiles.

While i agree it reminds me of last game. Math was going out of the window... from marines shooting in ideal conditions taking only 1 model, to my pistols doing actual dame to deathwing knights, a double snake eyes on a hero claiming him with a pet squig from warboss, ghaz wiffing almost all attacks in 2+hit/2+w/4+S for 6 attacks. Unfreaking believable. We even had a vindi blow up causing damage to friends while 6fnp it like a bandit. Some days the dice just don't agree with anyone.

I agree, we're way too swingy a faction to start relying on maths and averages I've had a foot beastboss tank a full round of shooting from a Drukhari list and then the next game he and his unit got mulched in a single round by a bunch of wyches.

I also agree with Jidmah about MANz, they're a brick that grinds its way through the midboard and occasionally does damage to a hard target.

Yeah, the days of the MANZ missile is far gone sadly. Used to be they were the more efficient delivery unit to bring pocket-sized PK damage compared to regular nobz who were a points sink investment on being a deathstar unit. Regular nobz ended up being paradoxically more resilient at least back in 5th/6th when they had the weird wound allocation rules to let them spread damage around and for Nob Bikerz variants in particular later on to dodge the S8 instant death, especially with the painboy thrown in to give them cybork bodies and FNP to deal with power weapons and regular attacks.

I do miss the old bully boyz formation giving WS5 and fearless to MANZ, but now they're definitely more of an anvil unit. Would personally like their rules to provide more resiliency beyond a WAAAGH! turn (not sure if it should be an invuln, but having 4W a pop or some kind of damage mitigation would be nice, but the Bully Boyz detachment kinda skews how effective the rules would be since having anything on top of a 5+ FNP for 2 turns would probably break the game again and receive a swift nerfing from GW.

 Forceride wrote:
While i agree it reminds me of last game. Math was going out of the window... from marines shooting in ideal conditions taking only 1 model, to my pistols doing actual dame to deathwing knights, a double snake eyes on a hero claiming him with a pet squig from warboss, ghaz wiffing almost all attacks in 2+hit/2+w/4+S for 6 attacks. Unfreaking believable. We even had a vindi blow up causing damage to friends while 6fnp it like a bandit. Some days the dice just don't agree with anyone.

You can't change your luck, but you can change your odds. For example, running MANz into a vindicator and expecting them to kill it will cause to take a risk and expose them to taking a demolisher cannon to the face that will just blast through their 2+ armor. Not knowing your odds will cause you to waste overwatch or counter-attack on units which did not have a chance to wound their targets. It makes it harder to understand when you should use dead 'ard, and when the CP would be better spent of something else. It makes it harder understand when grenades or tank shock can change the outcome of a battle and when it doesn't and what unit to deploy to which flank.

Just looking at the stratagem aspect has changed my game a lot. From being out of CP all the time, I usually have 2-3 CP to spare by the end of turn 3 which I can then use to flip the game around by using a counter-attack or throwing grenades to finish off a durable unit I wouldn't be able to deal with otherwise.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I agree, we're way too swingy a faction to start relying on maths and averages I've had a foot beastboss tank a full round of shooting from a Drukhari list and then the next game he and his unit got mulched in a single round by a bunch of wyches.

I couldn't disagree more. Since we roll a ton of dice and have bad saves, orks are probably one of the least swingy factions out there.
I guess if you play and watch a lot of games, you can learn which units are good into which enemy units just from observation or you might be talented and just do it right by gut feeling.
But in the end, the truth is that there is math behind it, and understanding and applying that math will make you win more games.

One of the biggest mistake in the 40k community is always looking at averages to figure out how much damage a unit will deal. Averages are good to compare similar units to each other, but not to figure out whether your weapon is good at killing another unit. Variance is just as important, but it's a fairly difficult concept to understand, calculate or even eyeball for most people.

For example, let's take a kill rig. Is it worth firing a kill rig at death shroud terminators (4W,T7, 2+/4++)?

Eavy lobba d6 attacks BS 5+ S6 AP 0 2dmg => average 0.13 dmg
Stikka kannon 1 attack BS 5+ S12 AP-2 3dmg => average 0.33 dmg
Wurrtower d3 attacks torrent, S12 AP-3 d6 dmg => average 2.33 dmg

So on average, you should deal 3 damage to a deathshroud, leaving it a 1 life. Going by average, it looks like a bad deal, but you might get lucky and kill that one terminator if you shoot everything at it, right?

Wrong. The heavy lobba isn't a terrible gun, but it has no AP and less strength than the deathshroud's toughness. Even if you do hit, wounding on fives and hoping for your opponent to roll a 1 is so unlikely that you might as well assume it doesn't. You are much better off shooting it at plague marines which give you much better odds at 4+ to wound and 3+ saves, plus every failed save will remove a body. You can also try to shoot a unit of poxwalkers and make use of blast. If somehow none of that is within 48", a demon engine with 3+ armor is still twice as likely to take damage than a DG terminator.
So how about the stikka? From pure averages, it might feel like being just as bad as the lobba. It's a single shot BS5+ gun, so it's most likely going to miss anyways. Always move and play as if it misses, don't let snagged lure you into bad situations. Despite anti-big fing 2+, it's still a good gun to shoot at other things, especially 3 wound models. Against deathshrouds, if it hits, it's going to wound on 3+ and damage 50% of the time which isn't bad odds at all. You are also unlikely to lose damage to overkill, so taking 2-3 wounds out of a death shroud isn't a bad deal at all. The only to not shoot it at the deathshrouds for me would be if there is drone or MBH nearby - more than half the hits will damage them, and you get to charge those high threat targets a bonus. Though, to be fair, if you have a kill rig within 12" of a MBH unit and it's not dead, Gork and Mork are already smiling at you. PBC on the flip side have 2+ armor, more wounds and not as much damage as it might seem, so in most cases, I would rather take 3 wounds out of terminator and finish it off with tank shock than to inconvenience a super durrable artillery piece.

The last, and most interesting one, is the Deff Ray Wurrtower. It looks like a decent weapon to fire into terminators, but is in reality not as good as average claim. d3 shots, auto-hitting, 3+ to wound, 50% chance to fail saves all are decent numbers. D6 damage averages to 3.5 and looks good on paper. However, the actual chance a shot to damage a deathshroud is 33.33%. Two out of 3 times, it will do nothing. One out of three times, this will be your only shot.
On top of that, deathshroud have 4 wounds, so if you deal damage once, you are not that likely to lose damage to overkill if you remember to shoot this before the stikka. The issue is that if the terminators fail two saves, the most likely outcome is still killing 0-1 terminators. Even at three shots, the most likely outcome is just one dead terminator.
So is worth firing the Wurrtower at deathshrouds? Probably not. It will take a huge chunk out most demon engines, including in PBC, so those should be its priority targets. It's not terrible at killing terminators, but not great either.

Another example would be nobz. During the Waaagh! you get an impressive 49 attacks from a unit lead by a warboss, causing an impressive ~14 unsaved wounds and most likely killing terminators, maybe 2, but very likely not the attached character. Typhus or LOC will then take a heavy toll on your unit before dying in the next round of combat.
Don't try this against Virulent Vectorium(sticky objective detachment) if they have 2CP open. They will half your damage and then murder your unit.
In general S8+ AP-2 2dmg weapons are a good choice against death shrouds. Sadly, orks don't have those in sufficient numbers outside of PKs.

I hope it somewhat makes sense, but these kind of decisions are exactly the reason why people lose against my DG, even when playing armies that should play well into them. People will just point big guns and scary looking melee units at those terminators and assume that this is enough to make them go away. Then their big guns bounce off, their expensive units are exposed without weakening my army in a meaningful way. All I need to do then is to blow up those exposed scary units before they can harm units they are actually good against.

TL;DR: Math is never irrelevant, and I feel like it's more important than ever before. Dice will always do dice things, but you need a proper plan for when things just go normal.

Don't get me wrong, things like unit X being good into unit Y are good things to memorise and act upon. But I find that people get stuck in the weeds with the Mathhammer when playing both with and against Orks and things tend to swing in both directions when Orks are involved.

The maths is solid and it's vital to have that knowledge, but I personally think Orks are more about redundancy than strict calculations. Which ties in to your comment about having a plan for when things go normal. Having that second Kill Rig, or Nobz squad, or squad of Grots, etc.

If that unit can get the job done on its own, fantastic, but if it can't I have the redundancy built in to my strategy and list to brute force the dice into being as close to normal (or better) as I want it to be.

Redundancy is a completely different topic though. The main applications for redundancy is to guarantee that you have a certain tool available when you need it, or when you want to reduce variance for powerful, but unreliable units. That's also math.

The only thing that makes orks special is that when BS5+ units with powerful weapons overperform, they can double or even tripple their average output which can have a huge impact on the game.

Played DG yesterday. Opponent brought a dozen Deathshroud termies. It was brutal. Knew I was playing them so thought I’d have a laugh and brought green tide with 150 infantry.

First two turns went well. Scored 21 VP in turn 2. Then the termies arrived and deleted everything.

The green tide was fun though. Will have to run it again.

Andykp wrote:
Played DG yesterday. Opponent brought a dozen Deathshroud termies. It was brutal. Knew I was playing them so thought I’d have a laugh and brought green tide with 150 infantry.

First two turns went well. Scored 21 VP in turn 2. Then the termies arrived and deleted everything.

The green tide was fun though. Will have to run it again.

Thanks for sharing! Yeah, I've heard until they get nerfed that Deathshroud are basically way too tanky and killy for what they are for points, not to mention their mobility from their 6" deepstrike since giving enemy units contagion is like handing out candy for DG at the moment. Could you share what your Green Tide list looked like? I'm planning to run it this weekend in a 1v2 (going against a Genestealer Cult and Eldar coalition) for 2K, and I'd love to hear what worked best for you and if anyone else can share their thoughts on what my tentative list looks like down below:



The plan is to have the 3 main blobs of boyz as the central units to contest the center objectives and tank incoming fire, while the trukks each have 5 Flash Gitz and Tankbustas inside as a responsive unit to both enemy screens as well as infantry/vehicles as they inevitably open fire on the boyz. The Weirdboy with Boyz act as a way to sticky objective things and provide opportune deep strikes during the game to get different objectives or corners of the map for secondaries. Stormboyz stay in reserve to deep strike later in the game and Kommandos act as a way to counter enemy infiltrators and get ahead on objectives and screening units. Currently I'm debating dropping the Kommandos to get more Boyz and get some more enhancements, not sure what everyone's thoughts are?

My list was a bit of an experiment. 6 big blobs of boyz, a mix of warboss/painboy leading or Weirdboyz for uppy/downy stuff. Some stormboyz and Kommandos for extra objective grabbing.

It’s started well but the damage output from the deathshrouds was horrendous and with out the extra strength for waaagh our damage output dropped off massively.

The group I play with infiltrators are a must, if you dint have some they quickly control the board.

My list scored Vp really well, but I was lucky with the missions.

 Grimskul wrote:
I'm planning to run it this weekend in a 1v2 (going against a Genestealer Cult and Eldar coalition) for 2K, and I'd love to hear what worked best for you and if anyone else can share their thoughts on what my tentative list looks like down below:

Spoiler:

Warboss with PK, Attack Squig, Kombi-Weapon, 2 sluggas - 75

Warboss with PK, Attack Squig, Kombi-Weapon, 2 sluggas - 75
- Ferocious Show-Off - 10

Warboss with PK, Attack Squig, Kombi-Weapon, 2 sluggas - 75

Painboy with PK, Urty Syringe - 80

Painboy with PK, Urty Syringe - 80

Painboy with PK, Urty Syringe - 80

Weirdboy - 65

19 Ork Boyz with Choppas & Sluggas, 1 Nob with PK - 170

19 Ork Boyz with Choppas & Sluggas, 1 Nob with PK - 170

19 Ork Boyz with Choppas & Sluggas, 1 Nob with PK - 170

9 Ork Boyz with Choppas & Sluggas, 1 Nob with PK - 80

10 Gretchin, 1 Runtherd - 40

9 Kommandos, 1 Nob with PK - 120
- Breacha Ram
- Bomb Squig
- Distraction Grot

4 Stormboyz, 1 Nob with PK - 65

4 Stormboyz, 1 Nob with PK - 65

4 Flash Gitz, 1 Kaptin - 80
- Ammo Runt

4 Flash Gitz, 1 Kaptin - 80
- Ammo Runt

5 Tankbustas, 1 Nob with 2 Rokkit Pistols - 140
- Additional Rokkit Launcha

5 Tankbustas, 1 Nob with 2 Rokkit Pistols - 140
- Additional Rokkit Launcha

Trukk - 70
- Wrecking Ball and Big Shoota

Trukk - 70
- Wrecking Ball and Big shoota

The plan is to have the 3 main blobs of boyz as the central units to contest the center objectives and tank incoming fire, while the trukks each have 5 Flash Gitz and Tankbustas inside as a responsive unit to both enemy screens as well as infantry/vehicles as they inevitably open fire on the boyz. The Weirdboy with Boyz act as a way to sticky objective things and provide opportune deep strikes during the game to get different objectives or corners of the map for secondaries. Stormboyz stay in reserve to deep strike later in the game and Kommandos act as a way to counter enemy infiltrators and get ahead on objectives and screening units. Currently I'm debating dropping the Kommandos to get more Boyz and get some more enhancements, not sure what everyone's thoughts are?

Against that combo of armies, you definitely need something to protect your backfield. Maybe keep hold the weird boy back and cover ground in your deployment zone and jump them forward later?

The list itself looks solid, it's not an all-commers list, but neither GSC nor eldar have a ton of dangerous armor that could give you trouble. Make sure to focus blast weapons with your shooting units.

Personally, I prefer to run footslogger by using mostly big units of nobz, flash gits, tank bustas and breaka boyz. It's essential 2W/4+ profile spam, and uses tactical brigade for extra durability. Not particularly powerful, but still feels like a proppa tide but with less back pains on the next day

Honestly, I think the recent updates have been a bit of anomaly. For most of 10th, GW has really kept Orks in a good strong place. The triple nerf into the ground seems to mostly be a result of multiple panicked responses to Moar Dakka. Hopefully the next points update rights the ship because it was clearly unwarranted.

Can't see a way to shift DG unless with shooting.

Death shroud are just too good for the points. They look like custodes but with none of the drawbacks. They also look way killy.

Frankly green tide should be our floor, as the detach we should base ourselves, with endless horde, but it's neutered state wont do much then surprise some.

It's just an opinion in the end of the day.

 Forceride wrote:
Can't see a way to shift DG unless with shooting.

Death shroud are just too good for the points. They look like custodes but with none of the drawbacks. They also look way killy.

They aren't more killy than comparable elite units in other armies like eightborn or flawless blades, it's their durability that makes them stand out. Make sure your opponent uses the correct hit roll (3+) when sweeping, it's a common mistake for people to roll 2+ just like for the strike.
What pushes them over the top are the insane buffs the LoC provides, as well as the near guaranteed charges from deep strike from T3 onwards starting with no counter-play.

Frankly green tide should be our floor, as the detach we should base ourselves, with endless horde, but it's neutered state wont do much then surprise some.

It's just an opinion in the end of the day.

GW deliberately neutered green tide among other similar archetypes in other armies though. They are considered unfun to play against, and GW keeps these type of lists at stompa level - playable, but not competitive.
New baseline is war horde tempo, and that isn't doing too hot.

It was an opinion, not a based one since i only glanced on them. But being true that would still make them undercosted at 140pts. GW does value defense higher in the point scale.

Honestly 8bound are pretty good in melee, one of the best. It begs the question why their so pontent melee wise and have no mobility issues in 6' DP with out needing transports while being tanking. It looks like an all in one... Well i just hope they don't get the ork treatment and are nerfed to oblivion.(fairly against models being made useless, GW disagrees though)

I think i am just gonna shrug, the meta isn't healthy at the moment.

I hear this complaint a lot lately, and it's not just Orks having a problem with DG.

I believe there will be an overreaction nerf on the horizon.

 Forceride wrote:
It was an opinion, not a based one since i only glanced on them. But being true that would still make them undercosted at 140pts. GW does value defense higher in the point scale.

True, 150-160 would still be a good price for what you get, combined with a raise on the LoC would bring it into somewhat fair territory.

You also need to see them in context. The shooting lineup alone could easy catch 100-200 points of nerfs, which means you can't afford to sink 700+ points into three slow melee bricks anymore.

DG would be a lot more manageable if they lose 2-3 from their current cookie cutter lists.

Honestly 8bound are pretty good in melee, one of the best. It begs the question why their so pontent melee wise and have no mobility issues in 6' DP with out needing transports while being tanking. It looks like an all in one... Well i just hope they don't get the ork treatment and are nerfed to oblivion.(fairly against models being made useless, GW disagrees though)

8 bound move a lot faster and hit harder. If DG were running just one unit of deathshrouds, you could just move away from them to neuter the unit.

I think i am just gonna shrug, the meta isn't healthy at the moment.

Definitely not. Half the game seems to be either DG or tailored towards killing DG.