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Probably I should start by stating that I haven't found time yet to have my first game of 10ed. However, an educated read can spot sooooo many problems and combos with devasting wounds that makes me wonder if anyone is really doing some proof reading.

Eldars with fate dice and kill teams are most obvious.

Personally, I would remove the rule, keep it for Psy if you wish, but nothing else. Or cap it so no re-rolls to wou d cam be used in combination.

You are correct. Devastating wounds for some armies and not for others is no balanced and the rule itself is pretty bad. As are all "fishing for sixes" or criticals in any game. It rewards rolling buckets of dice or getting lucky instead of good play. It is fine for a few weapons here and there, but giving it (and other "reward for sixes" abilities) to a large portion of an army is really un-fun.

I have only played one game so far, but it was against 1k sons so maybe that army is just op as hell but the rolling sixes mechanic is just lazy.

Devastating Wounds is only really a problem when the interaction is not fully intended and there are ways to manipulate the critical wound roll. Having them on haywire weapons, for example, isn't a problem, nor is it a problem seeing them on combi weapons. Where the issues come up is when you have things like Sternguard being able to get Anti-infantry 2+, or Eldar guaranteeing a 6 on the wound roll.

I don't think the basic rule needs changing but I do think it's one of the interactions GW needs to be very careful about in 10th. They should probably rule that Fate dice count as modified dice, for example, to prevent them triggering Devastating Wounds.

Slipspace wrote:
Devastating Wounds is only really a problem when the interaction is not fully intended and there are ways to manipulate the critical wound roll. Having them on haywire weapons, for example, isn't a problem, nor is it a problem seeing them on combi weapons. Where the issues come up is when you have things like Sternguard being able to get Anti-infantry 2+, or Eldar guaranteeing a 6 on the wound roll.

I don't think the basic rule needs changing but I do think it's one of the interactions GW needs to be very careful about in 10th. They should probably rule that Fate dice count as modified dice, for example, to prevent them triggering Devastating Wounds.

Agree with this. On a natural 6 or for dedicated [anti] weapons (with reasonable damage numbers and anti 4+, rather than 2+), devastating wounds aren't so bad. And necessary for some factions to function against vehicles in particular.

Dice manipulation is the problem.

I think the biggest issue is any weapon with a damage over 3 and Devastating Wounds, especially those with multiple attacks. They transform an AT weapon into a squad killer. That is probably not the intent. All the issues would disappear if you changed Devastating Wounds from Mortal Wounds to No Saves may be made against this attack. You would then overkill one model with 2D6 Damage rather than scoping up an entire unit of Infantry.

 alextroy wrote:
I think the biggest issue is any weapon with a damage over 3 and Devastating Wounds, especially those with multiple attacks. They transform an AT weapon into a squad killer. That is probably not the intent. All the issues would disappear if you changed Devastating Wounds from Mortal Wounds to No Saves may be made against this attack. You would then overkill one model with 2D6 Damage rather than scoping up an entire unit of Infantry.

This would honestly be quite a buff to devastating wounds.

Right now there are many effects which grants saves against mortal wounds, and this would make dev wounds ignore that.

Spoletta wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think the biggest issue is any weapon with a damage over 3 and Devastating Wounds, especially those with multiple attacks. They transform an AT weapon into a squad killer. That is probably not the intent. All the issues would disappear if you changed Devastating Wounds from Mortal Wounds to No Saves may be made against this attack. You would then overkill one model with 2D6 Damage rather than scoping up an entire unit of Infantry.

This would honestly be quite a buff to devastating wounds.

Right now there are many effects which grants saves against mortal wounds, and this would make dev wounds ignore that.

What gives such abilities?

Note feel no pain isn't save but damage ignore so those would still be taken...

tneva82 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think the biggest issue is any weapon with a damage over 3 and Devastating Wounds, especially those with multiple attacks. They transform an AT weapon into a squad killer. That is probably not the intent. All the issues would disappear if you changed Devastating Wounds from Mortal Wounds to No Saves may be made against this attack. You would then overkill one model with 2D6 Damage rather than scoping up an entire unit of Infantry.

This would honestly be quite a buff to devastating wounds.

Right now there are many effects which grants saves against mortal wounds, and this would make dev wounds ignore that.

What gives such abilities?

Note feel no pain isn't save but damage ignore so those would still be taken...

I agree. The spill over is a real issue. I know that from experience using Ahriman and the DP, both flat 3 damage. If you spike at all you are crushing infantry squads.

 alextroy wrote:
I think the biggest issue is any weapon with a damage over 3 and Devastating Wounds, especially those with multiple attacks. They transform an AT weapon into a squad killer. That is probably not the intent. All the issues would disappear if you changed Devastating Wounds from Mortal Wounds to No Saves may be made against this attack. You would then overkill one model with 2D6 Damage rather than scoping up an entire unit of Infantry.

How would you feel about removing "splash damage" from Mortal wounds instead?

Splash damage always seemed weird to me (in most cases). If I've got one bullet that does 12 damage, I can drop a Rhino with it... But it's still just one bullet, so when it kills five members of a unit, that's a little strange.

There are some circumstances where it's not a single bullet, sure. But those tend to be resolved as multiple hits, so the problem solves itself.

Well, you see, when a unit is standing in a line JUST right....

I just don't understand why there are D1 weapons with it.

 xeen wrote:
I agree. The spill over is a real issue. I know that from experience using Ahriman and the DP, both flat 3 damage. If you spike at all you are crushing infantry squads.

Would certainly fit what I experienced today.

If only there was a way (Shadowsword) to make Devastating Wounds (Shadowsword) from anti-tank weapons (Shadowsword) apply only to monsters or vehicles (Shadowsword)...

Oh wait I forgot they locked each index writer in a closet without light or sound until they finished.

Spoletta wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I think the biggest issue is any weapon with a damage over 3 and Devastating Wounds, especially those with multiple attacks. They transform an AT weapon into a squad killer. That is probably not the intent. All the issues would disappear if you changed Devastating Wounds from Mortal Wounds to No Saves may be made against this attack. You would then overkill one model with 2D6 Damage rather than scoping up an entire unit of Infantry.

This would honestly be quite a buff to devastating wounds.

Right now there are many effects which grants saves against mortal wounds, and this would make dev wounds ignore that.

That wouldn't be hard to amend to include Devastating Wounds.

The point is Devastating Wounds are not a problem when a Knight Valiant Harpoons a Carnifex for 12 Mortal Wounds. They also aren't a problem when an Assault Cannon rolls hot and gets 3 Mortal Wounds.

They are a problem when a Wraithknight rocks up with his Heavy Wraithcanon and uses Fate Dice to turn his anti-tank weapon into multiple sets of 2d6 Mortal Wounds against an Infantry unit.

What about when that unit of Carnifexes has two models, and the Valiant harpoons one of them and half of the 'Fex standing next to him?

I can buy hitting 2 Carnifexes more more than the Harpoon spearing 6 Space Marines or a dozen Orks.

 alextroy wrote:
I can buy hitting 2 Carnifexes more more than the Harpoon spearing 6 Space Marines or a dozen Orks.

You've obviously not watched much bollywood.

I hate devastating wounds and mortal wounds with a passion that partly drove me out of nuhammer in the first place. There should be no rewards for such lucky sixes, you simply rolled a six. Not only is the 1d6 too small a die for criticals, but critical hits shouldn't even exist with such weapons. Either you penetrate armor or you don't. Either you wound the target or you don't.

Moreover, wouldn't it be nice if a weapon with double the strength of the target just instantly slew it if the armor failed? What a crazy idea that would be.

Bygone, Wyzilla. Go back to your 3rd to 7th Edition

So far all the comments, which I really appreciate, just reinforce my opinion.

This ed seems a step back from 9@.
"Simplified" rules which just swift the complexity from books to data sheets (still to be seen as we don't have codex yet), rules which were under control now out of hand. Rebalancing as a community task rather than a product KPI, ...common! At least 8@ indexes were somehow balanced! Lost of unit customisation, both on equipment and composition options. No more customizable unit sizes which makes adjusting lists a pain, etc etc

let's see how it goes.

cody.d. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I can buy hitting 2 Carnifexes more more than the Harpoon spearing 6 Space Marines or a dozen Orks.

You've obviously not watched much bollywood.

Thank you. Now I know exactly how I will be seeing all my games of 40k in the future. And honestly, the similarities are uncanny.

Orkimedez_Atalaya wrote:
Probably I should start by stating that I haven't found time yet to have my first game of 10ed. However, an educated read can spot sooooo many problems and combos with devasting wounds that makes me wonder if anyone is really doing some proof reading.

Eldars with fate dice and kill teams are most obvious.

Personally, I would remove the rule, keep it for Psy if you wish, but nothing else. Or cap it so no re-rolls to wou d cam be used in combination.

No need to change your mind, to me Devastating Wounds are the worst part of this edition both with how they interact with Anti but also with how many weapons have the ability or can gain it from an outside source. If it was decoupled from Anti and very rarely used on a handful of weapons that make sense I don't think too many people would mind it.

 Dolnikan wrote:

cody.d. wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I can buy hitting 2 Carnifexes more more than the Harpoon spearing 6 Space Marines or a dozen Orks.

You've obviously not watched much bollywood.

Thank you. Now I know exactly how I will be seeing all my games of 40k in the future. And honestly, the similarities are uncanny.

If you know the theme from 'Singham', you can just replace the name with 'Angron'.

The issue is that given the core rules devastating + anti should have been used sparingly in combination. They were not, because the index writers are egotistical, lazy, and anti-balance. Now we have a problem.

I was discussing this with a few friends and the problem of Devastating wounds is that it technically breaks the game's paradigm on higher levels.

Take for example the Wraithknight. It has D3 shots that can take a single model out easily if it gets through. That's is its intended function. However, with Devastating Wounds(which you can proc with Fate Dice) you can change that anti-tank weaponry into a really good anti-elite infantry weapon. So basically the weapon ends up being good against everything if you have 6s. So basically it breaks the paradigm that a single shot kills a single model.

This is less of an issue in AoS as wounds already spillover so MW output there, even when it is high, isn't as gamebreaking(although there have been gamebreaking units).

 Eldarsif wrote:
I was discussing this with a few friends and the problem of Devastating wounds is that it technically breaks the game's paradigm on higher levels.

Take for example the Wraithknight. It has D3 shots that can take a single model out easily if it gets through. That's is its intended function. However, with Devastating Wounds(which you can proc with Fate Dice) you can change that anti-tank weaponry into a really good anti-elite infantry weapon. So basically the weapon ends up being good against everything if you have 6s. So basically it breaks the paradigm that a single shot kills a single model.

This is less of an issue in AoS as wounds already spillover so MW output there, even when it is high, isn't as gamebreaking(although there have been gamebreaking units).

I feel like the better choice is to switch Fate Dice from "Counts as unmodified" to "counts as modified" Anti-X needs an unmodified X+ to crit, Crit Wounds themselves take an unmodified 6+, and so on. As soon as Pick Your Result swaps to modified it no longer triggers all the bonuses and is then just a regular success.

On the topic of Devastating Wounds in general: GW just can't help themselves. The rule itself could be implemented without issues, same with the anti x rule. Even anti x triggering devastating wounds can be done.

The problem is as always how they are implemented and almost more importantly, how they are distributed.

The rule itself is WAY to prevalent in 10th edition, same with lethal hits. Which makes the edition just basically a game of fishing for 6s, which is why Eldar are so oppressive because they can do this better than everyone else by forcing them.

If you just implement these rules sparingly on very specialized units or the most powerful character units without copious means to force 6s, it wouldnt be such a glaring problem.

Right now I'd be in favor of them releasing a fix where they tweak the anti x rule to not be treated as unmodified 6s to wound, thus not triggering devastating wounds.

That would have side effects like haywire.

Start with fate dice etc being modified and points.

Hopefully GW will hot fix Strands of Fate to deal with the issue. It wouldn't hurt if they looked carefully at the Aeldari Devastating Wounds attacks and revamped them, especially the Wraithcannons (normal and heavy).

I don't see them doing so for Mortal Wounds or Devastating Wounds as that would have strong knock-on effects and would make the designers look a bit too bad.

Just give all armies access to the same amount of DevWounds. At worse the games are just going to be ending faster, which as a side effect will let people play two games inside a 1hour table rent.