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I won't have a chance to play games in person for a few months - I have a newborn.
But I think Auspex Tactics got several things wrong, actually.
My first pass at the math and usefulness to a mission recommends at least one unit he's put in tiers 3b, 4, and 5 respectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OK hear me out... I think Guilliman isn't that great. Let's compare him vs. a squad of 10 terminators with 2 cyclone missile launchers. The points aren't that dissimilar: 355 to 410.

Guilliman at range:
30", A2, BS 2+, S6, AP2, D2
Terminator Squad at range:
48", A4, BS 3+, S8, AP2, Dd6
24", A20, BS 3+, S4, AP0, D1

Guilliman in melee (sword):
A14, WS 2+, S8, AP3, D2 (Dev W)
Terminator Squad in melee:
A27, WS 3+, S8, AP2, D2

Guilliman defensively:
T9, Sv 2+/4++, W10 stands back up on a 3+ (so effectively 10-16W, and can't lose them all at once)
Terminator Squad defensively:
T5, Sv 2+/4++, W30 (can't take more than 3W damage per hit.)

On top of this, Termies have deep strike/rapid ingress,higher total OC, and fury of the first.

So far, the comparison is downright goofy. Termies all the way! But Guilliman has specific advantages, and if he is to earn his points, here are those advantages he has to leverage:

8" movement (vs. 5" and deep strike and as infantry can walk through terrain)
Lone operative
Author of the codex
Hand of dominion
Smaller footprint

So I'm not saying that Guilliman is totally overshadowed, just that you better figure out real quick how to reliably leverage the few advantages above in a big way. If you can't figure out how, you might as well switch to a big terminator brick. So hide him from enemy shooting and get him fighting monsters with T>8. Considering the number of ways people can mess with oath of moment (mists of deimos, phantasm, 2 different GSC strats), I figure Guilliman requires a high skill level to be played at advantage relative to terminators.

OK, here's my hot take on a few key units and abilities:

Scout bikers are an excellent unit if you give them grenade launchers. Shame they're going into legends soon.
First, if you get turn 1, they can rush up to your opponent's deployment zone and move-block your opponent so that they can't approach any midfield objectives turn 1 unless they can fly over you. You can even give the sarge a power fist and charge some shooty unit to tie it up for a turn.
Second, if you're facing a horde army like GSC, guard or Orks, you gain bullets faster than they gain models. Only 2 other marine units can do that: desolators which are more expensive, more fragile, and have less objective grabbing power, and aggressors which are more expensive, far slower, and therefore harder to maneuver into place. The damage, speed and survivability per point comparison against outriders is just sad. Also, for a unit that seems perfectly designed to fight hordes, the krak option on their grenade launchers makes them remarkably duel purpose.

Servitors. Shame they're going to legends, too. Basically, they're MSU devastators. Having 1-3 units threatening to outflank will cause an opponent significant screening issues for a cheap price, and overwatch can only target 1 squad, leaving others unharmed. Multimelta servitors with oath of moment will punish Knight and Eldar players who don't rethink their deployment. Doubt me? Compare 2 units of them to 1 unit of Eradicators coming in from outflanking. Or a single attack bike. Targeting a quaestoris knight with oath of moment. Now apply an imperial knight's overwatch to each before they get to shoot.

Gladiator Lancer: The math is deceptive. While the average damage calculations will tell you a happy story, it doesn't account for knights with 4++ using command rerolls on failed saves, Eldar being able to dodge away with phantasm, overkill on small vehicles, and GSC's utter indifference to anti-tank weaponry. Its long range and high T & W make it appear survivable and useful from turn 1. This is a lie. Its lack of an invul and the current cover and towering rules dooms it.

Oath of moment is a pretty unreliable ability. Against Knights, it's great. But plenty of armies will dodge it effectively:
Grey Knights, which can return your chosen target to reserves, or Chaos marines/GSC, who can render your chosen unit untargetable outside 12", or Aeldari, who can use phantasm to hide that unit, will all make you look stupid. Calculate all damage against these factions as if oath of moment doesn't exist.
Also, you have to pick your target before rapid ingress occurs. Also, read Guilliman's double oath ability carefully. If the first target leaves the table without being destroyed (a.k.a. Grey Knights), the second oath target doesn't get marked.
Note that oath of moment basically renders moot the special rules of both eradicators and lancers, some of our best anti-tank choices. So no synergy against knights. Very sad. What does oath of moment synergize well with? Grav cannon devastators. Do the math on them not just targeting knights with oath of moment, but also GSC aberrants. Or desolators/scout biker squads. Too bad GSC units outside 12" can render oath moot with a strat. Target someone else.

Terminators: 2+ with 4++ is about twice as effective as 3+, and never worse than 1.5x as good. 3W is about 1.5x more effective as 2W. T5 provides a boost which is hard to quantify. Ergo, terminators are more than twice as survivable as regular marines, and even against mortal wounds are 1.5 times as survivable. You want your opponent targeting them. I believe that they are also significantly more survivable than marine vehicles.

If you want to see where my mind's at in terms of list building, I posted a 'dark angels mixed wing' list in the army lists forum recently. I think it uses the gladius task force, I just wanted one of their data sheets.

Also, if their codex comes out separately much later, maybe I can use those 'legends' marine units a bit longer.

I have not really been paying attention to SM this edition.

Can somebody explain the bolter disiplinen trick to me? Is it taking a Captain with adept of the codex. One leutenant (or medic) in the same squad and then shoot with sustain hits, lethal hits? Am I misunderstanding something?

What are the default units? Only the new indirect fire primaris? Heavy interscessors? I suppose space wolves can do it on terminators.

Bolter discipline is an enhancement for 25 points which grants sustained hits 1.

Also, when the unit is in the devastator doctrine (naturally happens 1/game granting advance & shoot, but there's a strat to keep doing it with 1 unit for 1CP), means that 5+ are critical hits, not just 6s.

A common play is to take this on a character attached to a desolator squad, but it could be attached to anyone. It might be good to take on a lieutenant, since he grants the unit lethal hits, which would also happen on a 5+ in devastator doctrine. I'm surprised people haven't caught on to that synergy (myself included), except apparently your opponent.

Adept of the codex does not factor in to this strategy.

Aggressors also work.

6 bolter aggressor, captain with bolter disclipine. One of few units that can actually mow down buffed up 20 necron warriors.

I understand that I am a bit underequipped for this with rules and knowledge of the SM codex.

I see the argument ment for lieutenant for max amount of lethal and sustain hits. And a Captain to save on CP if I am spamming that stratagem every turn.

So I essentially are just looking for a unit with high amount of shooting. Bike squads (with the attack bike) both primaris and regular. Aggressors, heavy interscessors, desolation marines (those indirect hits sounds nasty.) I don't know if anybody can join centurion marines?

Sternguard who can double shoot.

Space Wolves terminators can have a mix of bolters, combo weapons and two cyclone missile launchers. Likewise long fangs can have a terminator in it.

Eradicator squad can re-roll a lot if it targets tanks. Potty there is no gravis lieutenant to get lethal and sustain hits on a 5+ with the re-roll.

Thanks I will mull it over.

tneva82 wrote:
Aggressors also work.

6 bolter aggressor, captain with bolter disclipine. One of few units that can actually mow down buffed up 20 necron warriors.

Don't forget the Biologis for Lethal Hits on 5+.
The Biologis is much more important than the Captain I'd say.

 MinscS2 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Aggressors also work.

6 bolter aggressor, captain with bolter disclipine. One of few units that can actually mow down buffed up 20 necron warriors.

Don't forget the Biologis for Lethal Hits on 5+.
The Biologis is much more important than the Captain I'd say.

The lieutenant also gives lethal hits no? Only there is no gravis option.

 Niiai wrote:

 MinscS2 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Aggressors also work.

6 bolter aggressor, captain with bolter disclipine. One of few units that can actually mow down buffed up 20 necron warriors.

Don't forget the Biologis for Lethal Hits on 5+.
The Biologis is much more important than the Captain I'd say.

The lieutenant also gives lethal hits no? Only there is no gravis option.

Exactly, hence why the Biologis is important.

 Niiai wrote:
I have not really been paying attention to SM this edition.

Can somebody explain the bolter disiplinen trick to me? Is it taking a Captain with adept of the codex. One leutenant (or medic) in the same squad and then shoot with sustain hits, lethal hits? Am I misunderstanding something?

What are the default units? Only the new indirect fire primaris? Heavy interscessors? I suppose space wolves can do it on terminators.

It's worth noting that desolators can't attach a captain or lieutenant, and the captain is critical to this as you would be popping the adaptive strategy stratagem as often as possible to stay in dev doctrine - so you need the free strat buff (not to be confused with the similar named enhancement adapt of the codex which is a bit useless).

Best units would probably be aggressors (bolter flavour) or eradicators. Calgar would be an interesting choice to sub in if you're trying ultramarines as his CP generation is probably better than the free strat, and you can take a few hits on the victrix guard first.

Thanks I think I get it now.

When get around to play my SW again I will do a 10 man brick of terminators. Those cyclone missile launchers sound to tempting.

To bad we have not character (yet) who can join an inceptor squad. They have sustain hits 2 on the bolters.

 MinscS2 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Aggressors also work.

6 bolter aggressor, captain with bolter disclipine. One of few units that can actually mow down buffed up 20 necron warriors.

Don't forget the Biologis for Lethal Hits on 5+.
The Biologis is much more important than the Captain I'd say.

I rolled it out and wiped 20 warriors buffed up. At some point there's too much poured over to single unit.

And cp is sparse so commiting to 2cp stings.

And both don"t fit inside redeemer(where i want cp also as well)

It is not 2 CP. It is one?

1 to activate devastator(it's not all game), 1to get crit's on 5+ and extra ap

You get crits 5+ from the upgrade, no?

tneva82 wrote:
1 to activate devastator(it's not all game), 1to get crit's on 5+ and extra ap

I think you're conflating a few rules, but I think you got the gist of it.

Extra AP comes from Storm of Fire, which is a 1CP stratagem that provides both the AP increase and ignore cover, the former of which can only occur under Devastator Doctrine. It may very well be the most optional part of this whole thing.

You then use the Adaptive Strategy strategem for 1CP that enables you to enter Devastator Doctrine if you are not already. This is the reason why you include a Captain attached to the unit. One of these two stratagems for this combo end up being 0CP.

Bolter Discipline is an enhancement, so it does not cost CP, and like Storm of Fire it has further interactions under the Devastator Doctrine. This is why Adaptive Strategy made free from an attached Captain is such a key part of this tactic. This enhancement will give you sustained hits, and if in the Devastator Doctrine you'll gain critical hits on 5+.

There's further layers you can add, but truly I feel one character giving you essentially a free stratagem is really the only necessary part. I like adding an Apothecary Biologis for Lethal Hits myself.

I'd favor desolators over aggressors. Aggressors are slow with limited range, and cost 220 for 6 blast weapons.

Desolators cost 170 for 5, with long range and indirect fire.

I personally favor scout bikes (150 for 6, the cheapest option), but that's because I don't own desolators and value the mission scoring utility of the bikers.

I feel like I should put in a word for plasma cannon devastators. Also a great option for horde control.

Any of these units shooting at a 20-man guard squad led by Leontus with oath of moment could realistically strip his bodyguard unit away in one volley. I'm not a fan of where guard are at in this edition.

Celerior wrote:
I'd favor desolators over aggressors. Aggressors are slow with limited range, and cost 220 for 6 blast weapons.

Desolators cost 170 for 5, with long range and indirect fire.

I personally favor scout bikes (150 for 6, the cheapest option), but that's because I don't own desolators and value the mission scoring utility of the bikers.

I feel like I should put in a word for plasma cannon devastators. Also a great option.

Put them in a Land Raider? Bring them out of Reserves? They are tough and have CC too vs Desolators. Just pros and cons.

Yeah, I'm not saying there's no place for aggressors. I've considered them in my list. I just don't favor them because
a) Adding a land raider makes that formation a quarter of your army.
b) There are other things I want to bring in from reserves, especially things that can hit armor.
c) Aggressors are particularly vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry. In fact, I'm feeling fairly down about gravis armor as a whole. What's the difference between T4,Sv3+,W2 and T6,Sv3+,W3 when you're being targeted by brightlances or melta weapons or whatever anti-tank a given faction has? Not enough.

Celerior wrote:
Yeah, I'm not saying there's no place for aggressors. I've considered them in my list. I just don't favor them because
a) Adding a land raider makes that formation a quarter of your army.
b) There are other things I want to bring in from reserves, especially things that can hit armor.
c) Aggressors are particularly vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry. In fact, I'm feeling fairly down about gravis armor as a whole. What's the difference between T4,Sv3+,W2 and T6,Sv3+,W3 when you're being targeted by brightlances or melta weapons or whatever anti-tank a given faction has? Not enough.

For C, if they are aiming their antitank at your infantry, they aren't aiming it at your tanks/dreads. So, that can somewhat be a benefit - though majorly dependent on list and metagame.

I am not planning on taking anti-tank that comes in from Reserve, so my plan for them is Reserves. The Land Raider does make them a bit of a point sink, most likely.

Celerior wrote:
Yeah, I'm not saying there's no place for aggressors. I've considered them in my list. I just don't favor them because
a) Adding a land raider makes that formation a quarter of your army.
b) There are other things I want to bring in from reserves, especially things that can hit armor.
c) Aggressors are particularly vulnerable to anti-tank weaponry. In fact, I'm feeling fairly down about gravis armor as a whole. What's the difference between T4,Sv3+,W2 and T6,Sv3+,W3 when you're being targeted by brightlances or melta weapons or whatever anti-tank a given faction has? Not enough.

Every anti-tank weapon fired at your Aggressors is one fewer fired at your actual tanks.

This is a pro, not a con.

I don't think Desolators will stay the way they are for much longer.

re: anti-tank, considering that players need to bring enough anti-tank firepower to fight a knights list (especially with them riding fairly high in the meta), I don't think that's going to be a problem.

Between the invul, the higher toughness, and the larger number of wounds, the anti-tank required to take out a knight is about 4 times greater than that required to take out a space marine vehicle. If a list at full strength can take out a knight in a turn, they can spare some anti-tank for our infantry by the time aggressors make it onto the field/into range.

This is all math and game theory, not practical experience talking. Tell me about how your aggressors performed on the table, please. I'm taking care of my newborn (came out right around the same time as 10th) and won't be having hours to myself to play a game for a while yet.

Celerior wrote:
re: anti-tank, considering that players need to bring enough anti-tank firepower to fight a knights list (especially with them riding fairly high in the meta), I don't think that's going to be a problem.

Between the invul, the higher toughness, and the larger number of wounds, the anti-tank required to take out a knight is about 4 times greater than that required to take out a space marine vehicle. If a list at full strength can take out a knight in a turn, they can spare some anti-tank for our infantry by the time aggressors make it onto the field/into range.

This is all math and game theory, not practical experience talking. Tell me about how your aggressors performed on the table, please. I'm taking care of my newborn (came out right around the same time as 10th) and won't be having hours to myself to play a game for a while yet.

I am in the same boat - all of what I hear is secondhand as I don't have an army to put on the table yet.

One source for the Aggressors is this article on Goonhammer. Seems like it worked out in that list.

Hello,
How can we play effectively infernus squad ?
Thanks !

HeavenLord wrote:
Hello,
How can we play effectively infernus squad ?
Thanks !

Well, flamers are made for overwatch, and D1 AP0 is made for light infantry or demons with invul saves. Flamers need LOS and marine bodies are fragile, so you want someone who you outrange or can otherwise get the drop on. Put it all together, and it means that Infernus squads are best when facing deep striking or assault based light infantry.

So that makes them a good pick to field when you're expecting to face GSC or demons. Something like Tzaangors (thousand sons) is another inviting target.

So how do you make them work in general, when you're only facing those armies occasionally, and they can always shoot your infernus marines dead first because pretty much every army has a healthy shooting component?

I think that if you're not facing something like GSC, this is a very good unit to outflank or even put in a drop pod. You come in, roast something in your shooting phase, and then if they move any nearby unit (or unit nearby) in their next shooting phase, you get to roast that unit for one CP. A squad of 10 in a drop pod sounds hilarious, especially if you go first. Drop down, roast something, and if they try to leave their deployment zone (which they have to to get to objectives!), roast them again on their turn.

Played with drop pod or outflank, they'd be very effective against Orks as well. Or even space marine scout snipers, with 4+ saves. -1 to hit doesn't matter with flamers. Their presence in reserve would force a chaos army to leave more forces near their backfield objective than just a squad of cultists. Outflank is much cheaper, and they can add a lot of value by forcing an opponent to consider all the places they could come in. The longer you can make them worry about all the places you might come in, the longer they add value without even being committed. That's my 2 cents.

Personally I don't think Infernus squads are worth it in a TAC list. They'll fail spectacularly against too many armies in the game (including other Marines and especially Custodes). If you want to run them anyway, I'll second the drop pod idea, as they could be a pain to shift, especially for melee armies who have to get close. The Battleshock test they inflict won't matter most of the time, but it'll be funny when it does.

Thank you very for these very valuable insights ! I plan to start the V10 with a 1000 pts army mostly from the leviathan box. I am not trying to have the best list possible but just a robust list to have fun.

What do you think about it ?
- Terminator captain + 5 Terminators
- Primaris Librarian with bolet discipline + 5 stenguards
- 10 infernus in a Drop pod
- 1 Dreadnought Ballistus
- 1 Lieutenant with combi weapon or Vindicare Assassin ?

Thanks a lot !

Looks pretty fun. I dont want to go off and suggest too much that relies on models that you might not have, so let me stick to this:

In a 1000 point game 5 terminators and a character is a pretty decent unit. So I would try to focus more of your damage output there. What I would do is move the Bolter Discipline enhancement from the Librarian over to the Captain.

That way you have your offensive buff on your most durable unit. You can then use your Captain's free stratagem per turn to use Adaptive Strategy to put your Terminators in the Devestator Doctrine, which gives them extra power out of that enhancement. Or if you are already in Devestator Doctrine you can use Storm of Fire instead for extra AP/ignore cover. If you have the CP and you really want something destroyed you can use both.

It is super nice, thank you so much !


Do you think the primaris librarian is still worth it with Stenguards without bolter discipline ?

And what would ne the best choice between the Lt with combi weapon and the Vindicare ?