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 Nevelon wrote:
I would not bet on full sniper scouts being a thing anymore. From the teasers we have it looks like one guy with a rife. Probably going to go the way of a special squad upgrade like the HB or ML.

Me and my full 10 man sniper squad would love to be wrong. Or at least allowed in legends. But with GW’s “what’s in the box” mindset, who knows.

That is my concern as well. Making Eliminators the specialty sniper squad and Scouts more "versatile". I hope that isn't the case, but does seem likely off the preview we saw. I am hoping that isn't the case tough, as it just doesn't make a lot of sense honestly as a concept - one random dude with a sniper rifle isn't gonna want to run around the table with dudes with pistols and chainswords.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
I would not bet on full sniper scouts being a thing anymore. From the teasers we have it looks like one guy with a rife. Probably going to go the way of a special squad upgrade like the HB or ML.

Me and my full 10 man sniper squad would love to be wrong. Or at least allowed in legends. But with GW’s “what’s in the box” mindset, who knows.

That is my concern as well. Making Eliminators the specialty sniper squad and Scouts more "versatile". I hope that isn't the case, but does seem likely off the preview we saw. I am hoping that isn't the case tough, as it just doesn't make a lot of sense honestly as a concept - one random dude with a sniper rifle isn't gonna want to run around the table with dudes with pistols and chainswords.

True. Although the same could be said for sticking a HB into a CC squad. Makes more sense if you have one sniper and 4 bolters in a squad. Mixing shotguns and CC always seemed more appropriate thematically.

Fingers crosses for rules supporting legacy squads. Not shuffling the shelf up yet. Although the new codex will probably see a lot of the 1st and 10th sections of the shelf fleshed out.

Celerior wrote:
SilverDP, the following would be list tailoring if it weren't my general advice - I'd recommend the land raider redeemer, both because one rarely needs 48" range driving up the middle, and because the flamestorm cannons make for amazing overwatch, and because you specifically have a list with lots of other long range shooting already.

Against demons specifically, this advice is even more true. Demons have an unshootable-outside-18" bubble ability on Be'lakor. And a major threat often uses rapid ingress.

MNOP, I agree that a strategic threat is valuable and I calculate a 1-((1-(5/6*1/6))^3) = ~36.1% chance you score at least 3 unsavable wounds (without oath) with a round of shooting. So the threat is real. But I think that 3 wound leader characters who can't get back up and don't have lone op are rare. Those that can't cross open stretches in one move even less common. Run through most characters you'd want to snipe and think through whether they need to sit in the open. I don't see it.
So I don't think the precision come up much or will stymie opponents much. But damage 3 is rare, AP-2 is perfect, and moving after shooting is nice. The damage output might be significant on its own. Let me know how they run.

To tneva82, MNOP, and anyone else who read my discussion of trying to hit Magnus, guess what I'm playing against tonight. Yes, it's my list mentioned previously against Magnus, Ahriman, Termies, Rubrics, mutalith and friends. Still using the old rules because the tournament was locked in under the old rules. His army in points now: 2165 points. Mine: 2000. Guess we'll see if I'm talking BS soon enough...

Unfortunately I do not own the redeemer .

tneva82 wrote:
Plus wounds not everything.

5+++ btw means opponent needs to cause 50% more damage to kill. 4w model, he needs 50% increase in damage

Yes, PPW is a useful tool for evaluation, not gospel.

So my game against Magnus... I killed Magnus and bunch of other stuff turn 1, but later made a couple of key movement mistakes (lost a whole devastator squad to a flamer's overwatch (and other units at other times too), when now I realize I could have teleported them out of harms way but I got tunnel vision.)

Somehow despite scoring max on primary I didn't score any secondaries on turns 3-5! So I lost 67-85.

My opponent was not exactly a good sport - I caught him rolling too many dice a couple times and he had to take 'em back, undercharging himself for rituals (again I caught him thanks to prep). I also entirely forgot about my lieutenant's effects on the hellblaster squad.

I killed magnus with the stormspeeder thunderstrike, one devastator squad (grav), and half of my lieutenant-hellblaster combo (while forgetting the lieutenant's and bolter discipline buffs entirely). The desolators also shot but totally whiffed somehow.

I call that a win for theory, but poor play (this is my 6th game of 10th and was unfamiliar with the number of awesome flamers T-Sons brings) sunk me. I have hopes of doing better next time, since I'll know to avoid all the flamers, that list would have to cut 190 points, and I'll hopefully not draw exactly the wrong thing on each secondary next time.

Underperforming units: Infernus squad. Scout snipers. Both units have routinely underperformed in all my games. The snipers just don't do enough damage.

Overperformers:
-Attack bikes (REAL chip damage, they also shoot back when the scout bikers or each other are shot)
-Libby dreadnought (teleported other units early in the game, but also destroyed the 1/2 surviving termy squad and a mutalith vortex beast before dying)
-hellblasters-lieutenant-bolter-discipline (They always find a way to earn their points on turns 1-2)
-Storm speeder thunderstrike

What I'm thinking for my next list (until the codex drops):
The damage group:
-Lieutenant with bolter discipline & 10 hellblasters (350)
-3 devastator squads, 1 lascannon 1 plascannon, 1 gravcannon (360)

The support group (sort of a 2nd oath):
-Storm Speeder Thunderstrike (170)
-Incursors (85)

The scoring group:
2 scout bike squads, grenade launchers (150)
3 attack bikes, multimeltas (165)
1 Callidus (90)
Librarian Dreadnought (170)

Still playing around:
-Land Raider Redeemer (260)
-desolation squad, krakstorm & vengor (200)

You guys know I'm a sucker for shooty infantry, right?

If I decide I don't really want the libby dreadnought, I have this burning desire to go Black Templars, build a mostly infantry list focused on firepower, then take 6 5-man crusader squads. Give 1-2 squads flamer-hand-flamer-heavy flamer to mess with GSC or Ork trukk spam, and all other squads get lascannon, plasma gun, inferno pistol, power fist. For one thing I can use a bunch of my old school marines when I get back to playing in person. For another, that's a lot of OC and board control and wounds and lascannons and powerfists to be chewed through for 390 points. And their ability synergizes well with devastator and assault doctrines. And they're expendible as screens. Meet the new action monkeys replacing exaction squads...

I just absolutely crushed a custodes player using something close to the list above (1 scout bike squad --> 1 sniper scout squad and desolators --> aggressors). I got first turn and the moment the Librarian dreadnought teleport went off, it was all over. I posted about it in battle reports:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/811519.page

Highlights:
- Grav cannon devastators taking out a land raider with the help of oath of moment, incursors, and storm of fire (devastator doctrine). 205 points taking out 240 points in 1 turn.
- Scout bikers getting off a turn 1 charge to tie up a tank and missing capture enemy outpost by just 1" (I think it made it in, but I didn't argue it).
- Invisible heroes: Attack bikes. Yes, they added a bit of damage and screened well against redeploy options, but the number of drops they cheaply provide meant that I basically got to see my opponent's deployment before committing anything important. So I could place the grav cannons opposite the land raider, and the lascannons opposite the calladius.

I'm really going to miss my legends units - they fulfill several critical niches for my army that nothing primaris can replicate.

The only unit that didn't pull its weight was the aggressors, and this wasn't their matchup.

Celerior wrote:

Highlights:
- Grav cannon devastators taking out a land raider with the help of oath of moment, incursors, and storm of fire (devastator doctrine). 205 points taking out 240 points in 1 turn.

Wow! A two turn game. I guess the advantage of online you do not have to sit around for another couple of hours for the inevitable defeat. I am not sure where your Grav cannon devastators were turn 1 (you mention setting them up opposite the Land Raider) but it sounds like poor target priority from your opponent not trying to thin out those anti-tank 2+ weapons and then moving the Land Raider towards them? That certainly was a lot of movement from the Scout Bikes.

Celerior wrote:

Consider: a point-per-wound (PPW) analysis of your units:
Heavy intercessors 7
Infiltrators, 10 or 8.3 after FNP
Eradicators 10.6
Sternguard, 11
Aggressors 11.1
Hellblasters 12.5
Eliminators 12.5
Inceptors 12.8
Desolators 20

Finally a metric Tactical Marines excel at! I am going to try running a squad with Librarian in a Rhino; just because they are painted and it will get me ten extra battle points!

What are peoples thoughts on the Vindicator? At 190 it still looks expensive compared to the other tanks. Going to roll one out and see what it does againt Orks and Aledar. I also have another friend who has picked up 10th Edition and he has not played since 3rd Ed. We are going to have a lot of obsolete units fighting each other.

You do not know the blood angel librarian dreadnought. He kan cast the old ork "da jump" spell. Pick up a unit and place it down anywhere outside of 9" of enemies. It is very hard to screen vs that - grav cannon has 24" range.

 Niiai wrote:
You do not know the blood angel librarian dreadnought. He kan cast the old ork "da jump" spell. Pick up a unit and place it down anywhere outside of 9" of enemies. It is very hard to screen vs that - grav cannon has 24" range.

I am aware of what it does we have been discussing it for the last two pages. Teleportation is only mentioned during the first turn in the brief battle report. Both armies have deep striking units so I would have expected some attempt at dealing with the Grav Cannon Devastator squad.

Deep striking units can't stop da jumping devastators all that well.

T1. Teleport. Shoot. They are going to dead next.

Deep strikers come t2 unless you are playing core rulebook mission. Aka after grav dev's have done their job.

You need indirect fire and 1st turn or they do their job. Well 1/6 chance spell fails.


T1 is only relevant turn. Then they are in open and are dead too high priority target to survive.

Just like sister of battle rettributors. When you use them forget them. They are walking dead. Nobody's silly enough to give 2nd salvo

And t2 you don't need deep strikers to kill the devastators that shot at your land raider. 24" range, not indirect and just teleported to shoot at land raider. They are easy to shoot at.

Yeah. Very few units can deep strike turn one. The BA dread can make that happen. Counter playing T1 deep striking guns can be very difficult. Boxing the landraider in a corner defeats the purpose for it. I am supriced the suggestion to just hide the landraider. It is a bit difficult.

Anyway, back on turn 1 deep strike: Blood angel dreadnought, Orks da jump (on one unit) drop pod and Tyranid drop spore. The new Tyranid vanguard detachment can deep strike anything turn 1. I don't know how Custodies should do it.

tneva82 wrote:

Deep strikers come t2 unless you are playing core rulebook mission. Aka after grav dev's have done their job.
You need indirect fire and 1st turn or they do their job. Well 1/6 chance spell fails.

I was not aware some missions changed the rules on page 39. In the battle report above the Devs are used on Turn 2 not turn 1 to destroy the Land Raider.

tneva82 wrote:

And t2 you don't need deep strikers to kill the devastators that shot at your land raider. 24" range, not indirect and just teleported to shoot at land raider. They are easy to shoot at.

Which would at least make sense. Whereas the battle report indicates the Land Raider drove at the Dev's making their job easier.

 Niiai wrote:
Boxing the landraider in a corner defeats the purpose for it. I am supriced the suggestion to just hide the landraider. It is a bit difficult.

That was not my suggestion. I would have gone after the Hellblasters or some other unit. From the limited information in the battle report it is difficult to talk about tactics especially for Custode as they are an army I have never seen before. My comment was about charging the Land Raider forward into such firepower seemed foolish. Nothing you have said so far changes my mind on that.

The land raider was across the entire battlefield and several obscuring bits of terrain from the hellblasters. I included a map in the battle report. My opponent thought the game was over after my turn 1, and I think he was right. His options were to stay in his deployment zone and wait to be picked apart 1 unit at a time while scoring nothing, or to move into no mans land and try to score for a couple turns while pushing me back. I agree it was a bad move, but it was the best one he had. He hoped a popped-smoke land raider had enough defensive juice. My biggest damage output unit had just jumped to the other side of the battlefield. My thunderstrike and lascannons couldn't draw a bead on the land raider either. The grav cannon squad was just made for this. I think the whole game was a no-win scenario, especially with me going first. I had a good list for this matchup.

I want to thank Lyracian for putting the idea of one lascannon devastator squad in my head. It was great.
And everyone who talked up vehicles, thanks for talking them up again and again. Thinking through my 10th ed battles, if you leave out the now-nerfed wraithknight, there isn't one battle where the redeemer wouldn't have been better than what I brought. I still hate the lancers, though. :-)

Lyracian: My spreadsheet shows the vindicator is relatively good against heavy targets like tanks & knights & really heavy infantry. I'd describe it as pretty good source of damage, though not an exceptional one, in terms of point efficiency.

In terms of defense, I must say that that 2+ save really gets my attention. It might actually be the cheapest source of high toughness 2+ save in the index. If your opponent doesn't have a lot of high strength AP3 or AP2 Ignore cover, move it forward, park it in cover, use armor of contempt, and watch your opponent use all his to take just it out. If your opponent has, say, gladiator lancers or lascannons/brightlances galore, then hide, work a high-cover-density flank, or reserve.

Lyracian wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Deep strikers come t2 unless you are playing core rulebook mission. Aka after grav dev's have done their job.
You need indirect fire and 1st turn or they do their job. Well 1/6 chance spell fails.

I was not aware some missions changed the rules on page 39. In the battle report above the Devs are used on Turn 2 not turn 1 to destroy the Land Raider.

Some? Most. There's literally 1 scenario in game with t1 deep strike possible.

You seriously play the core rulebook mission only? Doesn't it get repeatitive to play same scenario all the time?

tneva82 wrote:

Lyracian wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Deep strikers come t2 unless you are playing core rulebook mission. Aka after grav dev's have done their job.
You need indirect fire and 1st turn or they do their job. Well 1/6 chance spell fails.

I was not aware some missions changed the rules on page 39. In the battle report above the Devs are used on Turn 2 not turn 1 to destroy the Land Raider.

Some? Most. There's literally 1 scenario in game with t1 deep strike possible.

You seriously play the core rulebook mission only? Doesn't it get repeatitive to play same scenario all the time?

Lyracian, you'll find a variety of well designed interesting permutations described in the leviathan box. I'm a big fan of both generating a random scenario and using tactical objectives so that your goals change subtley from turn to turn. It makes the game much more interesting than 'pummel your opponent as hard as possible all the time'.

tneva82 wrote:
Some? Most. There's literally 1 scenario in game with t1 deep strike possible.
You seriously play the core rulebook mission only? Doesn't it get repeatitive to play same scenario all the time?

My last game was twelve years ago in 5th Edition. A bunch of us have started again now our children are a bit older; in fact one friend has not played since 3rd and we have another couple that were regular 9th Edition GT players. You could say there is a mix of experience. I am currently painting and rebasing models to bring them in line with the new rules and have three opponents lined up for next month (Orcs, Aldari and Marines).

Celerior wrote:
Lyracian, you'll find a variety of well designed interesting permutations described in the leviathan box. I'm a big fan of both generating a random scenario and using tactical objectives so that your goals change subtley from turn to turn. It makes the game much more interesting than 'pummel your opponent as hard as possible all the time'.

Thank you. I glanced at the mission cards, and am planning to use them, but had not read any of the details including the rule change for Deep Strike. Secondary objectives look interesting especially the option to draw different ones each round.

Celerior wrote:
The land raider was across the entire battlefield and several obscuring bits of terrain from the hellblasters. I included a map in the battle report. My opponent thought the game was over after my turn 1, and I think he was right. I agree it was a bad move, but it was the best one he had.

Not used to the online pictures. There was a line on the Hellraisers that made me think they had moved to the middle. I always like to have at least one picture per round (though given how short your game was may not have made much difference!

Celerior wrote:

I want to thank Lyracian for putting the idea of one lascannon devastator squad in my head. It was great.
And everyone who talked up vehicles, thanks for talking them up again and again. Thinking through my 10th ed battles, if you leave out the now-nerfed wraithknight, there isn't one battle where the redeemer wouldn't have been better than what I brought. I still hate the lancers, though. :-)

Glad my 5th Edition tactic proved useful. I always liked the long range high strength.

What does the Redeemer have over the Land Raider Crusader? I think I only have a Crusader.

Celerior wrote:

Lyracian: My spreadsheet shows the vindicator is relatively good against heavy targets like tanks & knights & really heavy infantry. I'd describe it as pretty good source of damage, though not an exceptional one, in terms of point efficiency.

Thank you. I will let you know how it gets on.

Lyracian wrote:


What does the Redeemer have over the Land Raider Crusader? I think I only have a Crusader.

I haven't yet used either, but at a glance I think the overwatch potential is pretty high with the Redeemer. You can overwatch in the movement phase now, so auto-hit weapons like that tend to bring a lot of value in certain matchups.

I've been playing a bit with Crusade recently. I've been pretty disappointed in sniper Scouts, I know they're supposed to be good and they are good at doing some objectives, but their damage output is a lot less than I expected. The main advantage seems to be defense rather than offense with Stealth and their "fake Lone Operative" ability, and I'm not really lamenting those going away, I think a cheaper normal Scout squad often would have been more effective anyway with the redeploy ability...

Lemondish wrote:

Lyracian wrote:


What does the Redeemer have over the Land Raider Crusader? I think I only have a Crusader.

I haven't yet used either, but at a glance I think the overwatch potential is pretty high with the Redeemer. You can overwatch in the movement phase now, so auto-hit weapons like that tend to bring a lot of value in certain matchups.

Also it flat out shoots better. Flamer better than bolter.

It basically toasts unit of infantry and then says "dare you come in range?".

Until enemy can tag it to melee it's area no infantry wants to enter

Btw probably not much of news but just in case rumour is oath changing to just rr hits.

 Kingsley wrote:
I've been playing a bit with Crusade recently. I've been pretty disappointed in sniper Scouts, I know they're supposed to be good and they are good at doing some objectives, but their damage output is a lot less than I expected. The main advantage seems to be defense rather than offense with Stealth and their "fake Lone Operative" ability, and I'm not really lamenting those going away, I think a cheaper normal Scout squad often would have been more effective anyway with the redeploy ability...

Agreed, I have also gone from 3 to 2 to 1 squad of sniper scouts. That 1 has come in handy, though. It can stand in the open on an objective in my backfield, hold outflankers/deepstrikers back from reaching a valuable target, force an opponent to come closer than they want to to engage, screen out other infiltrators or scout moves. In my recent 'the ritual' mission, it laid out new objectives near my deployment zone turn after turn, in the open but far back enough that my opponent couldn't get to them easily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tneva82 wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

Lyracian wrote:


What does the Redeemer have over the Land Raider Crusader? I think I only have a Crusader.

I haven't yet used either, but at a glance I think the overwatch potential is pretty high with the Redeemer. You can overwatch in the movement phase now, so auto-hit weapons like that tend to bring a lot of value in certain matchups.

Also it flat out shoots better. Flamer better than bolter.

It basically toasts unit of infantry and then says "dare you come in range?".

Until enemy can tag it to melee it's area no infantry wants to enter

Btw probably not much of news but just in case rumour is oath changing to just rr hits.

The Crusader is basically just a transport, with a bit of anti-chaff dakka. The redeemer is a brutal MEQ eliminator with battle-changing overwatch potential.

You won't have to worry about Sniper Scouts much longer as they're not going to be in the next Codex...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You won't have to worry about Sniper Scouts much longer as they're not going to be in the next Codex...

While I suspect you are correct, GW is nothing but inconsistent.

And we might get legends rules for legacy kit builds even if full sniper squads are not in the main codex.

Legends rules, yes, I could see that happening when the Codex does arrive, but the idea of Scouts with Sniper Rifles is going away.

It'll be 1 per 10, as per the new kit.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Legends rules, yes, I could see that happening when the Codex does arrive, but the idea of Scouts with Sniper Rifles is going away.

It'll be 1 per 10, as per the new kit.

Do we know if the new kit is 10 unique sculpts or 2x5? Or just a box of 5 with different options shpwn?

Judging from how unique the sniper is, I’m guessing that he’ll be in addition to the heavy, but sprue will tell.

Yeah, not sure if it'll be one per ten or one per five (or whether it'll take the heavy weapon slot), but either way the full sniper squad doesn't seem likely to be sticking around except perhaps as a Legends choice.

If Oath of Moment indeed gets nerfed, it seems like heavy anti-tank units will become more important -- I've found that "medium strength" anti-tank stuff can be quite effective thanks to Oath of Moment rerolls to wound against big targets. The Predator Destructor with las sponsons, for instance, has been a very solid choice, and superkrak missiles from Desolation Squads seem to work decently well despite being "only" strength 10.

However, if Oath rerolls to wound go away, that's more reason to take heavy AT units like the Gladiator Lancer (or units that bring their own rerolls like Eradicators).

Well they've confirmed that Oath wound re-rolls are gone in the upcoming 'Dex.

I just wish Doctrines was the core Marine rule, not Oaths of Bloody Moment...

But wow, the 1st Company special rule is Garbage with a capital G!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well they've confirmed that Oath wound re-rolls are gone in the upcoming 'Dex.

I just wish Doctrines was the core Marine rule, not Oaths of Bloody Moment...

But wow, the 1st Company special rule is Garbage with a capital G!

“That thing we just nerfed? Once per game you can have it back”. Does seem a little lackluster. Situationally useful. Would have hoped for something a little more thematics for vets.

The Close-Range Eradication detachment rule sounds good for my skew list. Assault on all weapons so the slow Gravis can keep moving and shooting, plus +1 to Strength at 12" is extra nice. And because it isn't just Salamanders, I can continue to use Tor.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well they've confirmed that Oath wound re-rolls are gone in the upcoming 'Dex.

I just wish Doctrines was the core Marine rule, not Oaths of Bloody Moment...

But wow, the 1st Company special rule is Garbage with a capital G!

I fear for the dark angels codex and their death wing detachment if this is what GW did for our elite first company

I'm more concerned with how the hell this book even works with Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Deathwatch. I mean, those factions are getting full Codices this time around (right?) and not supplement books, but the preview video yesterday specifically calls out this new book as working with those other Chapters.

So if I was, for example, a Blood Angel player, do I use the Marine Codex as well as the upcoming Blood Angel Codex, or use the Marine Codex until the BA one gets released at which point I switch, or can I mix detachments from the BA 'Dex with the main rule from the Marine Codex, or is Oath just going to be the rule in every Marine Codex?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I'm more concerned with how the hell this book even works with Dark Angels/Blood Angels/Space Wolves/Deathwatch. I mean, those factions are getting full Codices this time around (right?) and not supplement books, but the preview video yesterday specifically calls out this new book as working with those other Chapters.

So if I was, for example, a Blood Angel player, do I use the Marine Codex as well as the upcoming Blood Angel Codex, or use the Marine Codex until the BA one gets released at which point I switch, or can I mix detachments from the BA 'Dex with the main rule from the Marine Codex, or is Oath just going to be the rule in every Marine Codex?

From what it seems, you can use these detachments even if you're BA/DA/DW/SW while also having access to your own special units and Index detachment still. All unit rules in it seem to apply to all Marines, kinda like how it works now with the Indexes.

We have no clue what the special books for those detachments will include yet, but the video made note of this one having BA inside in some way, but who knows what that means today. We'll know more soon, of course, but it sounds a lot like the special ones will continue to be spoiled for choice.